oped
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Post by oped on May 15, 2019 5:41:02 GMT -5
Bullshit. What that ‘high rate’ Does is actually get rid of transparency... because no one actually pays it and companies hide behind it, not letting you know they pay next to nothing, or nothing, or actually get more money from the government than they pay in...
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 7:30:48 GMT -5
and it puts the finger on what is, IMO, one of the biggest problems with our safety net: it is a "go off the cliff" system. Earn just a little more than the limit and all your benefits (worth much more than that little overage) will disappear. The system, as is, actually works against people trying to get off welfare. A more graduated approach would be much more effective. We could introduce something like we already have in place for those who take SS early and continue to work. But that seems not to be an option worth considering by certain people in power. I agree- the system is seriously flawed when earling a little more money means you lose benefits worth more than the extra income. Pensions and healthcare for lifetime after retirement is what was killing big business. The former employees do not ad value to any production in current years but drain the parent company of funds. Years ago pensioners did not live to the mid 80's and died off by 75 or younger, keeping costs in check. GE and other corporations have made many terrible mistakes, but the pension liabilities eventually do so many corporations in. Well, they stuck their heads in the sand for a long time. Due to extensive lobbying, the laws allowed employers to use wildly optimistic long-term rate of return assumptions in valuing pension liabilities, thus understating the amounts required for full funding. When the market had good years, they took excess funds out of the plan instead of leaving them in as a cushion in bad years. As for retiree health insurance- most of this is going away unless it was promised under union contracts. A previous employer used to provide it but then "froze" the value at some point, saying that retirees after that date would get that amount towards their health insurance and the employee would be responsible for the rest. They were a class act compared to my brother's previous employer, which just stopped it. Period. Last I heard, DB and DSIL were paying a combined $20K/year for health insurance. They have a couple of years till they're Medicare-eligible.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 7:55:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it is factually correct to speak of cliffs when speaking of our social safety net. We still have a few cliffs but we also have a lot of phase-outs, which are often stacked on top of each other, and a confusing mess of different income bases, base periods, and annually adjusted base numbers. It takes a hell of a lot of math-fu and tell-me-fu to figure out how any of our social safety net programs are supposed to work even when the working of the program is amply disclosed and there are almost no administrative delays or snafus to navigate.
My father is an accountant. My mom majored in math and computer programming when women were not supposed to take such classes. In my elementary years, I won math and maths prizes. My 750 math SAT score was recentered to an 800 score two decades ago. I have a B.A. in accounting. And despite all that background in math and detail, I sweated bullets trying to figure out how the earned income credit for adults without dependent children actually applied to me, and how the phase-out would effect me.
FWIW, the phase-out period of the earned income credit for persons without a dependent child involves some crazy jumps in marginal tax rates that can really bite you in the ass if you are not careful. It's also one of the most clear-cut safety net programs out there. I often weep for folks who have to navigate parts of our safety net that are less clearly defined or require more sign-offs and verification.
Tax credits usually have a phase out, but things like daycare and housing assistance, WIC, and free lunch at school, all have hard cutoffs. You can just google the limits for everything in our state and there are nice little charts. If you make X you qualify for the full benefit, if you make X+$1 you're SOL. Plus, those limits are typically right around the same amount for all benefits, so a small increase in income can mean a huge loss in help. Imagine being a single mom in Section 8 housing with a couple little kids, one in subsidized daycare and one in school getting free lunch facing taking a promotion at work that would take her 1K over the limit for all these things. Even if she is a hard worker that wants to break free from assistance that would be a hard pill to swallow.
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 15, 2019 9:14:21 GMT -5
As for retiree health insurance- most of this is going away unless it was promised under union contracts. A previous employer used to provide it but then "froze" the value at some point, saying that retirees after that date would get that amount towards their health insurance and the employee would be responsible for the rest. They were a class act compared to my brother's previous employer, which just stopped it. Period. Last I heard, DB and DSIL were paying a combined $20K/year for health insurance. They have a couple of years till they're Medicare-eligible. Dad lost his retiree health care because he was a white collar worker. So far, the company has reimbursed the retirees a minimal amount. I say minimal because the only expenses of dad's that qualify for reimbursement are Medicare Part B and D and they last paid him for expenses from 2016 in January. The company has cut the reimbursement amount in half each of the last two years, so I suspect it's being phased out.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 15, 2019 9:27:06 GMT -5
This may be a false correlation. The problems between the USA and native American culture are complicated. Throwing a few bucks at them didn't solve anything, but I am not sure it caused the addiction problems. Not to mention that the money given was hardly "free". Native Americans were removed from their lands where they were able to hunt and fish and gather food as they needed and forced to live in squalor and now they have to buy the food that the land used to supply. Yes, but even more recently - the reeducation process of removing children from their families to teach them how to be whiter was a terrible failure. Who could have guessed that taking massive numbers of children away from loving homes would damage a society for generations.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 15, 2019 11:42:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it is factually correct to speak of cliffs when speaking of our social safety net. We still have a few cliffs but we also have a lot of phase-outs, which are often stacked on top of each other, and a confusing mess of different income bases, base periods, and annually adjusted base numbers. It takes a hell of a lot of math-fu and tell-me-fu to figure out how any of our social safety net programs are supposed to work even when the working of the program is amply disclosed and there are almost no administrative delays or snafus to navigate.
My father is an accountant. My mom majored in math and computer programming when women were not supposed to take such classes. In my elementary years, I won math and maths prizes. My 750 math SAT score was recentered to an 800 score two decades ago. I have a B.A. in accounting. And despite all that background in math and detail, I sweated bullets trying to figure out how the earned income credit for adults without dependent children actually applied to me, and how the phase-out would effect me.
FWIW, the phase-out period of the earned income credit for persons without a dependent child involves some crazy jumps in marginal tax rates that can really bite you in the ass if you are not careful. It's also one of the most clear-cut safety net programs out there. I often weep for folks who have to navigate parts of our safety net that are less clearly defined or require more sign-offs and verification.
Tax credits usually have a phase out, but things like daycare and housing assistance, WIC, and free lunch at school, all have hard cutoffs. You can just google the limits for everything in our state and there are nice little charts. If you make X you qualify for the full benefit, if you make X+$1 you're SOL. Plus, those limits are typically right around the same amount for all benefits, so a small increase in income can mean a huge loss in help. Imagine being a single mom in Section 8 housing with a couple little kids, one in subsidized daycare and one in school getting free lunch facing taking a promotion at work that would take her 1K over the limit for all these things. Even if she is a hard worker that wants to break free from assistance that would be a hard pill to swallow. I did the google search that you suggested. Yes, a cute little chart showed up. Unfortunately neither "family/household size" nor "income" was defined.
So onto the next thing that shows up, the four most common queries. Nope, they didn't define those buggers.
So on I went to the webpages designed by the state-level bureaucrats. There's a tad more information there if you search for it but you also have to get past some really frustrating things, like FAQ pages that contain two FAQs and the second FAQ isn't answered. The question is merely a link to the online application. It took a lot of searching to find the income calculation reference sheet that looks helpful until you realize that only two sentences on the page contain a subject and a verb. If you are paying a portion of your own health insurance or making making contributions to a traditional 401{k} you can read this page until your eyes bleed and still not be able to determine whether income is gross income, social security wages, or AGI.
This unhelpfulness and lack of precision has got to be a design choice. The IRS and the state unemployment agency manage to actually answer questions on their web pages but these agencies do not. I think that you're supposed to give up and either apply in hopes of getting answers or call them and be pressured into applying.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 12:14:15 GMT -5
Tax credits usually have a phase out, but things like daycare and housing assistance, WIC, and free lunch at school, all have hard cutoffs. You can just google the limits for everything in our state and there are nice little charts. If you make X you qualify for the full benefit, if you make X+$1 you're SOL. Plus, those limits are typically right around the same amount for all benefits, so a small increase in income can mean a huge loss in help. Imagine being a single mom in Section 8 housing with a couple little kids, one in subsidized daycare and one in school getting free lunch facing taking a promotion at work that would take her 1K over the limit for all these things. Even if she is a hard worker that wants to break free from assistance that would be a hard pill to swallow. I did the google search that you suggested. Yes, a cute little chart showed up. Unfortunately neither "family/household size" nor "income" was defined.
So onto the next thing that shows up, the four most common queries. Nope, they didn't define those buggers.
So on I went to the webpages designed by the state-level bureaucrats. There's a tad more information there if you search for it but you also have to get past some really frustrating things, like FAQ pages that contain two FAQs and the second FAQ isn't answered. The question is merely a link to the online application. It took a lot of searching to find the income calculation reference sheet that looks helpful until you realize that only two sentences on the page contain a subject and a verb. If you are paying a portion of your own health insurance or making making contributions to a traditional 401{k} you can read this page until your eyes bleed and still not be able to determine whether income is gross income, social security wages, or AGI.
This unhelpfulness and lack of precision has got to be a design choice. The IRS and the state unemployment agency manage to actually answer questions on their web pages but these agencies do not. I think that you're supposed to give up and either apply in hopes of getting answers or call them and be pressured into applying. It might just be your state that is being difficult. MN Department of Human Services has a pretty easy to navigate website. Still a lot of the income limits have Federal guidelines like Free lunch and WIC.
WICI guess our daycare assistance IS sliding scale, which is good. Section 8 housing is hard to just have a chart because it's based off the income of the area that the housing is in.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 15, 2019 12:37:10 GMT -5
WIC was the one that was driving me crazy. The poverty threshold is a federal number but it is just a number. When it is used, the income in question may be gross, after-tax, or just about anything else.
I have to admit that the SNAP info was quite a bit more precise and detailed, especially after I left the state site and found the stuff that policy wonks write.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 12:44:30 GMT -5
WIC and free lunch are the only ones I'm personally familiar with as I used them for one year. The income limits were gross income and I had to bring in paychecks to verify. They're also supposed to include child support.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 15, 2019 13:00:14 GMT -5
FWIW, WIC info also gets better if you bypass the state-sponsored pages and go right to the national sites. I wish that I had known this before I railed so much. OTOH, you've gotta keep an eye on dates when you go to any national site. The info is better-written and more detailed but the numbers cited can be quite out of date.
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Post by Value Buy on May 20, 2019 7:10:27 GMT -5
Pensions and healthcare for lifetime after retirement is what was kiling big business. The former employees do not ant value to any production in current years but drain the parent company of funds. Years ago pensioners did not live to the mid 80's and died off by 75 or younger, keeping costs in check. GE and other corporations have made many terrible mistakes, but the pension liabilities eventually do so many corporations in. A corporation is not the government. Eventually they cannot borrow enough money to cover the benefits. You are basically suggesting socialism of corporations enforced by the Federal government. That might work for a generation before it implodes. Funny how it doesn't kill big business in other countries..... Trump with the tax cuts, put our corporationson on a level playing field with European corporations who had/have tariff regulations in place protecting their corporations from American corporations. There is an apple/oranges comaprision level going on between countries. One country takes a different tactic than another country might do. For instance Canada liked to import Chinese steel and aluminum and it here for a fraction of a dollar profit as a secret middleman, hurting American manufacturers. Trump cleaned that tactic up for us.
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Post by Value Buy on May 20, 2019 7:55:07 GMT -5
I think you misunderstand, they just want immigration handled legally. I don't hear of any democrats saying bring it on. This is another trump created emergency. When he started all this close the border BS the ones south of us got scared and figured this was their last chance. He created a mass exodus that he cannot handle. I don't know how he is going to fix the mess he created. Like he said its all on him, and he is correct. Right now the estimates are 3 to 5 thousand crossing the border daily. Trump did not create the exodus.When Democrats said let them come and no fence, the die was cast. I would like to see your county accept a number of five thousand people go there to be resettled and see how happy you will be. I think your ideals would nt be quite the same.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 20, 2019 8:13:07 GMT -5
Forgetting this thread isn’t in any way about immigration... first 5 months of year were apx. 1700... seems like we need more lawyers and judges working at the border.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on May 20, 2019 9:00:47 GMT -5
Why would they bring 5000 to our county? Our whole country has maybe 12000 people and the east half has been ruined by strip mines and is mostly unlivable. We don't have any housing here. What little bit we have available is substandard and they are tearing it down as they can condemn and buy it. We finally got 40 units of subsidized housing for over 55 and disabled. Non citizens can't move into federal housing here of subsidized housing and that's about all we have. We have a few new builds but that is beyond the prices of most of the locals and the cheap stuff is in very poor condition, like the one hubs is redoing. Indiana offers little for their residents. I'm not concerned anyway its a poor republican state now, going downhill fast. We got right to work lowering wages a couple years ago, and education here is moving to the level of Louisiana and Alabama. Just heard Evansville is moving up to number one in meth. I guess they would have to put them in fields, in tents, summer and winter. This state won't do anything for them. They hate LGBT and tried to pass such a draconian law under pence we lost several big companies that were going to come here, they did not. And their abortion laws are pretty bad too. Most of the kids graduating from college leave and like us only come back after retirement if then.
And yes its because of trump and the fear that he is going to close the border. But I also hear that Guatemala is struggling through a horrible drought and gangs that are killing people and they are leaving in fear. I know immigration reform needs done, locking up and losing kids isn't going to solve it. It needs to be done by congress and has been pushed down the road for years. It all started with reagon giving amnesty to millions after that it set it up so those people believe it would happen to them too, so look at the source.
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Post by Value Buy on May 20, 2019 9:13:06 GMT -5
Why would they bring 5000 to our county? We don't have any housing here. What little bit we have available is substandard and they are tearing it down as they can condemn and buy it. Indiana offers little for their residents. I'm not concerned anyway its a poor republican state now, going downhill fast. We got right to work lowering wages a couple years ago, and education here is moving to the level of Louisiana and Alabama. Just heard Evansville is moving up to number one in meth. I guess they would have to put them in fields, this state won't do anything for them. They hate LGBT and tried to pass such a draconian law under pence we lost several big companies that were going to come here, they did not. And their abortion laws are pretty bad too. And yes its because of trump and the fear that he is going to close the border. But I also hear that Guatemala is struggling through a horrible drought and gangs that are killing people and they are leaving in fear. I know immigration reform needs done, locking up and losing kids isn't going to solve it. It needs to be done by congress and has been pushed down the road for years. It all started with reagon giving amnesty to millions after that it set it up so those people believe it would happen to them too, so look at the source. What kind of housing units do you think 5,000 migrants a day are going to get anywhere in the states immediately? How many vacant units are waiting for them to occupy them just today? Where? How do they get to them?
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on May 20, 2019 9:37:52 GMT -5
There are probably areas that have more then we do, they just aren't here. Places like Houston have slums all over that's where most of them live down there. And it used to be mainly men that lived 10 to a house or more. Hard for families to do that. I don't know trump created the mess, let him figure it out. Oh he is going to build that beautiful fence with spikes to impale people and black paint to burn them. Stupid man, ropes and gloves is all that's needed and cushioning to put over the spikes. You can tell he is knows nothing.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on May 20, 2019 9:52:11 GMT -5
I just saw where with the pig disease in china has allowed Canada to increase exports of pork 80%. With the tariffs our farmers are losing that one too. He is killing our farmers. We will have nothing left but corporate farms.
But this is hurting Cat, Deere, all the manufacturers, fertilizer producers, storage and shipping facilities, shipping, and on and on.
Oh well, they keep voting for him, no one to blame but themselves. Like you, if you would see the big picture of how he is hurting us in everyway, you might change your mind. I guess when he finally packs everything refuses to leave the office then you will be crying crocodile tears. To late got a dictator for life reporting to putin. Good luck with that.
Oh and oil is going up, Saudi is going to hold oil off, and Iran has been cut. Russia is going to benefit, his kissa** buddy. Yeah a great president. You gullible people kill me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 20, 2019 15:59:18 GMT -5
I think you misunderstand, they just want immigration handled legally. I don't hear of any democrats saying bring it on. This is another trump created emergency. When he started all this close the border BS the ones south of us got scared and figured this was their last chance. He created a mass exodus that he cannot handle. I don't know how he is going to fix the mess he created. Like he said its all on him, and he is correct. Right now the estimates are 3 to 5 thousand crossing the border daily. Trump did not create the exodus.When Democrats said let them come and no fence, the die was cast. I would like to see your county accept a number of five thousand people go there to be resettled and see how happy you will be. I think your ideals would nt be quite the same. Where does that 3-5k number come from? I don't have anything to dispute it, but I don't like to quote estimates and statistics without knowing the source. Thanks
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Post by weltschmerz on May 20, 2019 16:36:16 GMT -5
Funny how it doesn't kill big business in other countries..... Trump with the tax cuts, put our corporationson on a level playing field with European corporations who had/have tariff regulations in place protecting their corporations from American corporations. There is an apple/oranges comaprision level going on between countries. One country takes a different tactic than another country might do. For instance Canada liked to import Chinese steel and aluminum and it here for a fraction of a dollar profit as a secret middleman, hurting American manufacturers. Trump cleaned that tactic up for us....and Trump changed his mind again, removing the tariffs from Canadian aluminum and steel. Does that mean we can Chinese steel on you again, for a fraction of a dollar profit? Now it's OK to hurt American manufacturers? Dumbass doesn't know what he's doing.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 20, 2019 17:20:34 GMT -5
Donald J. Trump
✔
@realdonaldtrump
Starting Monday, our great Farmers can begin doing business again with Mexico and Canada. They have both taken the tariff penalties off of your great agricultural product. Please be sure that you are treated fairly. Any complaints should immediately go to @secretarysonny Perdue!
Who instituted the tariffs in the first place? It was YOU, you moron! What was the point of all that?
Just for fun?
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Post by Value Buy on May 20, 2019 18:00:52 GMT -5
Trump with the tax cuts, put our corporationson on a level playing field with European corporations who had/have tariff regulations in place protecting their corporations from American corporations. There is an apple/oranges comaprision level going on between countries. One country takes a different tactic than another country might do. For instance Canada liked to import Chinese steel and aluminum and it here for a fraction of a dollar profit as a secret middleman, hurting American manufacturers. Trump cleaned that tactic up for us....and Trump changed his mind again, removing the tariffs from Canadian aluminum and steel. Does that mean we can Chinese steel on you again, for a fraction of a dollar profit? Now it's OK to hurt American manufacturers? Dumbass doesn't know what he's doing. No, Canada has to stop the purchasing of Chinese steel and aluminum products and /or just being the middle man to transport the product. That was the deal they made.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 20, 2019 18:09:43 GMT -5
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Post by Value Buy on May 20, 2019 18:17:14 GMT -5
Why would they bring 5000 to our county? Our whole country has maybe 12000 people and the east half has been ruined by strip mines and is mostly unlivable. We don't have any housing here. What little bit we have available is substandard and they are tearing it down as they can condemn and buy it. We finally got 40 units of subsidized housing for over 55 and disabled. Non citizens can't move into federal housing here of subsidized housing and that's about all we have. We have a few new builds but that is beyond the prices of most of the locals and the cheap stuff is in very poor condition, like the one hubs is redoing. Indiana offers little for their residents. I'm not concerned anyway its a poor republican state now, going downhill fast. We got right to work lowering wages a couple years ago, and education here is moving to the level of Louisiana and Alabama. Just heard Evansville is moving up to number one in meth. I guess they would have to put them in fields, in tents, summer and winter. This state won't do anything for them. They hate LGBT and tried to pass such a draconian law under pence we lost several big companies that were going to come here, they did not. And their abortion laws are pretty bad too. Most of the kids graduating from college leave and like us only come back after retirement if then. And yes its because of trump and the fear that he is going to close the border. But I also hear that Guatemala is struggling through a horrible drought and gangs that are killing people and they are leaving in fear. I know immigration reform needs done, locking up and losing kids isn't going to solve it. It needs to be done by congress and has been pushed down the road for years. It all started with reagon giving amnesty to millions after that it set it up so those people believe it would happen to them too, so look at the source. I want 5,000 in your county so you can see first hand what is going on. You have complained how they destroyed Texas for you in years past and yet you have no problem enforcing the border to stop it. You need the reality check.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 20, 2019 19:23:48 GMT -5
...and Trump changed his mind again, removing the tariffs from Canadian aluminum and steel. Does that mean we can Chinese steel on you again, for a fraction of a dollar profit? Now it's OK to hurt American manufacturers? Dumbass doesn't know what he's doing. No, Canada has to stop the purchasing of Chinese steel and aluminum products and /or just being the middle man to transport the product. That was the deal they made. China wants nothing to do with us, except put our citizens on death row, thanks to you. We did something FOR YOU. Thanks for nothing. With friends like you, we don't need enemies. Fed up Canada tells U.S. to help with China crisis or forget about favors www.reuters.com/article/canada-trade-china-huawei/fed-up-canada-tells-us-to-help-with-china-crisis-or-forget-about-favors-idUSL1N22F0ZP
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2019 19:36:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry, $4,000 A YEAR? What problems, exactly, do you think this is going to create? OMG I might fix my 18 yr old car! Oh No......... All that delayed mainentance because I am under-employed .... how dare I?
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on May 20, 2019 20:53:08 GMT -5
I'm not worrying it about Value Buy, your god trump will fix it all up like he has everything else. He has fucked up everything he has touched and is doing it with immigration too.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 21, 2019 8:15:57 GMT -5
So you think the Canadian government did that because they were doing a "favor" as opposed to doing it because the US funds a huge portion of their economy via trade?
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Post by Value Buy on May 21, 2019 9:09:34 GMT -5
So you think the Canadian government did that because they were doing a "favor" as opposed to doing it because the US funds a huge portion of their economy via trade? Above my paygrade. Quite frankly Mexico was the big offender on imports from China. There were news articles and reports last year shipped from China showing huge out door storage areas in Mexico loaded with aluminum product ingots sheets, etc, waiting to be moved north to the U.S.
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
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Post by weltschmerz on May 21, 2019 11:50:29 GMT -5
So you think the Canadian government did that because they were doing a "favor" as opposed to doing it because the US funds a huge portion of their economy via trade? Yes, it was a favour.
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hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
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Post by hoops902 on May 21, 2019 11:56:04 GMT -5
So you think the Canadian government did that because they were doing a "favor" as opposed to doing it because the US funds a huge portion of their economy via trade? Yes, it was a favour. That's a pretty massive indictment of the intelligence of the Canadian government. If they run things based on "favors" rather than intelligent decision-making, that's not a good look on them. Is there talk of removing leadership from office for putting Canadian citizens in harm's way for a favor that isn't based on getting anything out of the relationship?
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