laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 15, 2019 10:51:31 GMT -5
A big part of Liberals hatred of Trumps wall is the fact that he promoted it as a way to keep those dirty Mexicans out of the country. The racism of it all etc. But somehow the argument against funding it has become "it's not the best way to secure the borders". So a big part of the Liberal argument against the wall has become "let us show you better ways to keep them out".
How do things get this fucked up?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 15, 2019 10:58:05 GMT -5
I think the wall is stupid because it's not efficient. I'm not against anyone coming in legally, mexican, european, middle eastern, martian.
Most of our illegal immigrants are here by overstaying their visas. That's how the 9/11 highjackers were here. I think we need to put more effort into tracking expired visas. Drugs come in through legal cargo shipments. Can't we have better technology to xray/scan incoming cargo?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 15, 2019 11:05:22 GMT -5
I agree - I wasn't against the wall because of the racist way the trump fear mongered for it. I think it's an extremely inefficient use of tax payer dollars, when there are so many cheaper ways to get better border security, plus I think there are many other more effective ways to try to get illegals (as swamp suggested, going after people who overstay their visas). Plus, Trump is lying about the 'flood' of illegal immigrants 'pouring' over the southern border - in fact, there's more illegals leaving rather than coming in over that border. I also don't like how he ignores the differences between illegals and asylum seekers.
I'm also opposed to Trump's racist comments, but not just the ones he makes about the criminal brown people - also the ones against the Muslims, people from 'shit hole' countries, and non Christians in general.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 15, 2019 11:29:39 GMT -5
I don't think the wall in itself is racist - it's just massively inefficient and would do next to nothing.
I do think a lot of trumps comments about and reasons why we need the wall are racist. And trumps comments and reasons have become so entwined with the wall itself that people are interpreting calling them racist as calling the idea of wall racist.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 15, 2019 11:43:10 GMT -5
I absolutely think Trump is using xenophobia as a way to push the wall. People want simple solutions to complex messy problems. Giving people a scapegoat makes people feel better and gives them the ability to ignore the rest of the problem because if we just had a wall it'd all go away. I am against it because it is security theater just like the TSA. It does nothing to solve illegal immigration because the majority of people do not come here on foot across the border. Plus there is this body of water they could cross instead called the Gulf of Mexico if they are really intent on getting here, that's how Cuban illegals get here.
Then there is the money involved. It will not only cost money to build but to keep in shape. This is something that would cross our entire southern border that involves very different climates in requiring different levels of care. I refuse to have my child and grandchildren saddled with those costs. The money would be better spent in investing in current technology that requires less care and manpower to operate. We need to hire more case workers so the legal process can be sped up and people who are here on visas can be tracked and sent home.
My German boss told me how easy it would be for him to drop off the grid if he wanted to. The system is so overloaded they rely on people self reporting. All he'd have to do is not report to the office at his new address and as long as he doesn't break the law could stay here illegally forever. How does a wall fix that? We also need to hire more judges and lawyers so cases can get processed quickly and fairly. If someone comes back we can quickly funnel them right back out. As it stands now the courts are ridiculously backlogged. We also need massive prison reform. Prisons need t o be non-profit. As it stands they make massive amounts of money off these camps they are running for Trump and keeping people incarcerated for drug use. The prison system stands on the bac f illegal immigration and has a vested interest in keeping it the same.
We also need to reform how we approach drugs. Drug lords are not Cheech and Chong coming across the boarder in their pot van. They are Gus Fring with their hands in legitimate business all over the world. We need to be looking into our trade practices and how we're funding the very things we claim we want to stop with a wall. No money, no drugs.
Right now according to the CDC Fentanyl is the biggest problem we have in this country, the majority of that is coming across the sea from China. How is a wall going to stop that? We should be investing in better cyber technology and other tools to catch drugs coming in from legal ports and the internet.
I'm also for the legalization of all drugs and this is despite my husband being an addict. That money that goes towards a wall could go towards public health programs. Human beings are going to engage in self destructive behavior, period. Instead of creating a massive black market why not legalize and tax it all. Less money, less drugs coming across illegally (though you'll never stop it all and we need to accept this). Another side benefit is legalizing drugs takes away a main source of profits for prisons which lessens the incentive they have to keep the system the way it is.
Employment reform needs to happen too. Personally I'd like to see money that would go to a wall be funneled into restarting the work visa programs of the 50's and 60's. If you can create a program where people can freely come and go between countries legally for harvest or tourist season the less likely you will have people coming and staying illegally. I'd also not be opposed to having a streamlined immigration process for peopel who use this program and want to become citizens. Farmers/tourist traps get their cheap labor, labor gets their money, labor goes home after the season. Everybody wins.
We don't need a wall. We need massive social reform and need to come to terms with our history regarding Mexico. None of the current sentiment or the wall debate is anything new, it's a discussion that goes back 200+ years. Hell some of those people coming illegally probably have more rights to that land than we do if you read your history. You see the whole debate about keeping Mexicans off "our" land and the justification for the current solution to keeping them out in a whole new light.
If we can't come to terms with our attitude towards these issues a wall is going to solve nothing. We'll eventually find a new group to scapegoat and blame for all the world's ills. We can keep trying to isolate ourselves and it may work for awhile, but as history shows eventually the world comes a-knocking and it doesn't tend to be the isolationists who win.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 15, 2019 12:16:48 GMT -5
The reality of this is,,,,,,,,,,,, The reason the Left is against the wall ,,, Because Trump Used it in a political statement! If Obama had made a political statement Saying We need a wall,, All of us on Right would have been against it! All on the Left would be for it!
If Trump came out with a "New ACA" the Left would have apposed it cause Trump Wanted it! Of course, all of the Right would be for it!
When Obama came out with ACA,, We on the Right opposed it cause Obama presented it! Reminds me of My two dogs fighting over a whistle ball,, each only want it when the other has it!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 15, 2019 12:27:44 GMT -5
The reality of this is,,,,,,,,,,,, The reason the Left is against the wall ,,, Because Trump Used it in a political statement! If Obama had made a political statement Saying We need a wall,, All of us on Right would have been against it! All on the Left would be for it!
If Trump came out with a "New ACA" the Left would have apposed it cause Trump Wanted it! Of course, all of the Right would be for it!
When Obama came out with ACA,, We on the Right opposed it cause Obama presented it! Reminds me of My two dogs fighting over a whistle ball,, each only want it when the other has it!
Oh, get over yourself already. You may be a very smart person (I have no way to judge that) but you are acting like a vinyl record with a scratch in it → you just keep repeating the same part of your song
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 15, 2019 12:33:16 GMT -5
The reality of this is,,,,,,,,,,,, The reason the Left is against the wall ,,, Because Trump Used it in a political statement! If Obama had made a political statement Saying We need a wall,, All of us on Right would have been against it! All on the Left would be for it!
If Trump came out with a "New ACA" the Left would have apposed it cause Trump Wanted it! Of course, all of the Right would be for it!
When Obama came out with ACA,, We on the Right opposed it cause Obama presented it! Reminds me of My two dogs fighting over a whistle ball,, each only want it when the other has it!
Oh, get over yourself already. You may be a very smart person (I have no way to judge that) but you are acting like a vinyl record with a scratch in it → you just keep repeating the same part of your song That's funny, You disagree cause I said it, If some one on the left leaning side had said it, you would have agreed or no response. Which is my point,
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 15, 2019 12:37:55 GMT -5
We wouldn't need to build a wall if we'd just enforce the laws that are on the books now. Like, why do we only inspect 1 in 10 trucks that cross the border from Mexico into the USA? We COULD inspect every truck (yes, it'd take more manpower, but it's still cheaper than a stupid wall). As others have mentioned, we could enforce the rules on visas (yes, again it'd take manpower, but still cheaper than a wall). I don't want my kids, and grandkids, paying for a wall which the "brilliant" Republicans will discover doesn't work only AFTER it's been built, and those billions of dollars could've been spent in much better ways, like infrastructure, or education, or maybe even healthcare.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 15, 2019 12:39:02 GMT -5
I absolutely think Trump is using xenophobia as a way to push the wall. People want simple solutions to complex messy problems. Giving people a scapegoat makes people feel better and gives them the ability to ignore the rest of the problem because if we just had a wall it'd all go away. I am against it because it is security theater just like the TSA. It does nothing to solve illegal immigration because the majority of people do not come here on foot across the border. Plus there is this body of water they could cross instead called the Gulf of Mexico if they are really intent on getting here, that's how Cuban illegals get here.
Then there is the money involved. It will not only cost money to build but to keep in shape. This is something that would cross our entire southern border that involves very different climates in requiring different levels of care. I refuse to have my child and grandchildren saddled with those costs. The money would be better spent in investing in current technology that requires less care and manpower to operate. We need to hire more case workers so the legal process can be sped up and people who are here on visas can be tracked and sent home.
My German boss told me how easy it would be for him to drop off the grid if he wanted to. The system is so overloaded they rely on people self reporting. All he'd have to do is not report to the office at his new address and as long as he doesn't break the law could stay here illegally forever. How does a wall fix that? We also need to hire more judges and lawyers so cases can get processed quickly and fairly. If someone comes back we can quickly funnel them right back out. As it stands now the courts are ridiculously backlogged. We also need massive prison reform. Prisons need t o be non-profit. As it stands they make massive amounts of money off these camps they are running for Trump and keeping people incarcerated for drug use. The prison system stands on the bac f illegal immigration and has a vested interest in keeping it the same.
We also need to reform how we approach drugs. Drug lords are not Cheech and Chong coming across the boarder in their pot van. They are Gus Fring with their hands in legitimate business all over the world. We need to be looking into our trade practices and how we're funding the very things we claim we want to stop with a wall. No money, no drugs.
Right now according to the CDC Fentanyl is the biggest problem we have in this country, the majority of that is coming across the sea from China. How is a wall going to stop that? We should be investing in better cyber technology and other tools to catch drugs coming in from legal ports and the internet.
I'm also for the legalization of all drugs and this is despite my husband being an addict. That money that goes towards a wall could go towards public health programs. Human beings are going to engage in self destructive behavior, period. Instead of creating a massive black market why not legalize and tax it all. Less money, less drugs coming across illegally (though you'll never stop it all and we need to accept this). Another side benefit is legalizing drugs takes away a main source of profits for prisons which lessens the incentive they have to keep the system the way it is.
Employment reform needs to happen too. Personally I'd like to see money that would go to a wall be funneled into restarting the work visa programs of the 50's and 60's. If you can create a program where people can freely come and go between countries legally for harvest or tourist season the less likely you will have people coming and staying illegally. I'd also not be opposed to having a streamlined immigration process for peopel who use this program and want to become citizens. Farmers/tourist traps get their cheap labor, labor gets their money, labor goes home after the season. Everybody wins.
We don't need a wall. We need massive social reform and need to come to terms with our history regarding Mexico. None of the current sentiment or the wall debate is anything new, it's a discussion that goes back 200+ years. Hell some of those people coming illegally probably have more rights to that land than we do if you read your history. You see the whole debate about keeping Mexicans off "our" land and the justification for the current solution to keeping them out in a whole new light.
If we can't come to terms with our attitude towards these issues a wall is going to solve nothing. We'll eventually find a new group to scapegoat and blame for all the world's ills. We can keep trying to isolate ourselves and it may work for awhile, but as history shows eventually the world comes a-knocking and it doesn't tend to be the isolationists who win.
that doesn't fit on a bumpersticker, and doesn't make a nice chant, so it won't go anywhere.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 15, 2019 12:47:22 GMT -5
The reality of this is,,,,,,,,,,,, The reason the Left is against the wall ,,, Because Trump Used it in a political statement!
that is my reason to question the idea, but it is not my reason to reject it.
my reason for rejecting it is that it is dumb. but consider the source.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 15, 2019 13:28:08 GMT -5
I don't understand why there's any irony to say that 1) the wall is motivated by racism AND 2) the wall would be ineffective in its stated aims.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 15, 2019 13:46:38 GMT -5
Oh, get over yourself already. You may be a very smart person (I have no way to judge that) but you are acting like a vinyl record with a scratch in it → you just keep repeating the same part of your song That's funny, You disagree cause I said it, If some one on the left leaning side had said it, you would have agreed or no response. Which is my point,
My point is that we should not waste money on an f*ing US version of the Maginot Line. You really should read up on how well that worked
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 15, 2019 14:25:29 GMT -5
My point is that we should not waste money on an f*ing US version of the Maginot Line. You really should read up on how well that worked But it's so easy and appropriate to waste money when the president says
""We have so much money we don’t know what to do with it," Trump said. "I don’t know what to do with all the money they’re giving us." (You have to do some scrolling). It must be nice to be the president. BILLIONS at your disposal to do whatever the hell you want with.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 14:32:15 GMT -5
My point is that we should not waste money on an f*ing US version of the Maginot Line. You really should read up on how well that worked But it's so easy and appropriate to waste money when the president says
""We have so much money we don’t know what to do with it," Trump said. "I don’t know what to do with all the money they’re giving us." (You have to do some scrolling). It must be nice to be the president. BILLIONS at your disposal to do whatever the hell you want with.
Do you mean you are against using other peoples money ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 14:35:25 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 15, 2019 15:12:24 GMT -5
interesting details in that article, x:
In two years, they constructed 143-mile fence, about $2.9 million per mile
assuming we could do it that cheaply (I doubt it), our border is basically 10x the length.
$4B, 20 years to build.
note: that cost seems really low to me. I would like to check the original data on this.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 15, 2019 15:16:23 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 15, 2019 15:21:49 GMT -5
5m is really short. a standard extension ladder is tall enough to breach it.
what Trump is talking about is far more formidable.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 15, 2019 15:22:57 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 15, 2019 15:27:27 GMT -5
the Berlin Wall was also patrolled. it also had a very low penetration rate.
it was universally loathed.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 15, 2019 15:44:01 GMT -5
A big part of Liberals hatred of Trumps wall is the fact that he promoted it as a way to keep those dirty Mexicans out of the country. The racism of it all etc. But somehow the argument against funding it has become "it's not the best way to secure the borders". So a big part of the Liberal argument against the wall has become "let us show you better ways to keep them out". How do things get this fucked up? I think your initial premise is wrong. I didn't like the wall from the beginning because I thought it was a stupid way to address the issue of illegal immigration. I think both your assertion and AS's are just beliefs with no actual basis in reality. And I don't believe either that there is one monolithic "liberal" argument either. Some people want to increase immigration, some people want to forgive illegals who came as children and yes there are lots of non conservatives, i.e. centrists and those who are liberal leaning who want to decrease illegal immigration. To think all these non conservatives fit in one idea is simplistic at best and grossly wrong at the worst. I can't answer your question, but the issue really is where are the politicians going to find hopefully common ground on US immigration enforcement.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on Feb 15, 2019 16:24:23 GMT -5
I'd like to see them enforce the law that puts employERS in jail when they hire illegals. That would put a stop to a lot of it right there.
And we can start with DT & his family company. He knew, don't care what he says, he knew and so did his entire family and his whole business!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 15, 2019 16:29:15 GMT -5
I'd like to see them enforce the law that puts employERS in jail when they hire illegals. That would put a stop to a lot of it right there. And we can start with DT & his family company. He knew, don't care what he says, he knew and so did his entire family and his whole business! This has been part of the big issue which is why neither party has ever done all that much. Apparently too many employers who give money to politicians want the status quo.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 15, 2019 16:45:13 GMT -5
But it's so easy and appropriate to waste money when the president says
""We have so much money we don’t know what to do with it," Trump said. "I don’t know what to do with all the money they’re giving us." (You have to do some scrolling). It must be nice to be the president. BILLIONS at your disposal to do whatever the hell you want with.
Do you mean you are against using other peoples money ? Isn't Trump's Folly (aka the wall) being built with "other people money"? It certainly isn't coming out of Trump's pocket. It's taxes, so other peoples money.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 15, 2019 17:39:04 GMT -5
I don't understand why there's any irony to say that 1) the wall is motivated by racism AND 2) the wall would be ineffective in its stated aims. No, what ends up being said is 1) a wall to keep bad Mexicans out is racist AND 2) here's a better way to keep them out
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 15, 2019 17:44:42 GMT -5
A big part of Liberals hatred of Trumps wall is the fact that he promoted it as a way to keep those dirty Mexicans out of the country. The racism of it all etc. But somehow the argument against funding it has become "it's not the best way to secure the borders". So a big part of the Liberal argument against the wall has become "let us show you better ways to keep them out". How do things get this fucked up? I think your initial premise is wrong. I didn't like the wall from the beginning because I thought it was a stupid way to address the issue of illegal immigration. I think both your assertion and AS's are just beliefs with no actual basis in reality. And I don't believe either that there is one monolithic "liberal" argument either. Some people want to increase immigration, some people want to forgive illegals who came as children and yes there are lots of non conservatives, i.e. centrists and those who are liberal leaning who want to decrease illegal immigration. To think all these non conservatives fit in one idea is simplistic at best and grossly wrong at the worst. I can't answer your question, but the issue really is where are the politicians going to find hopefully common ground on US immigration enforcement. I have read too many comments about the wall being immoral to say that it was not the main argument against it. It wasn't the only reason but it was a big one. And I read too many arguments now talking about better ways to keep illegals out to ignore that no one is really upset by the idea of keeping people out. I stand by my premises.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 9:16:31 GMT -5
Wasn't denying the multiple technologies that were used.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 9:33:49 GMT -5
I think your initial premise is wrong. I didn't like the wall from the beginning because I thought it was a stupid way to address the issue of illegal immigration. I think both your assertion and AS's are just beliefs with no actual basis in reality. And I don't believe either that there is one monolithic "liberal" argument either. Some people want to increase immigration, some people want to forgive illegals who came as children and yes there are lots of non conservatives, i.e. centrists and those who are liberal leaning who want to decrease illegal immigration. To think all these non conservatives fit in one idea is simplistic at best and grossly wrong at the worst. I can't answer your question, but the issue really is where are the politicians going to find hopefully common ground on US immigration enforcement. I have read too many comments about the wall being immoral to say that it was not the main argument against it. It wasn't the only reason but it was a big one. And I read too many arguments now talking about better ways to keep illegals out to ignore that no one is really upset by the idea of keeping people out. I stand by my premises. Just a question. I consider Mexican a nationality, not a race. I would consider a Hispanic, the majority race in Mexico. Is that what you are meaning ? There are a lot of Hispanics in Central America.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 9:37:03 GMT -5
I don't understand why there's any irony to say that 1) the wall is motivated by racism AND 2) the wall would be ineffective in its stated aims. And what race would that be ?
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