Indiana GOP pushes ahead with big voucher program

[ty]

www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jB8t78VgTgtbac2aeRA2INfm2-_A?docId=07462af907ac488383ed484a7b032131

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Indiana's Republican leadership is pushing ahead with a proposal that would be the nation's broadest use of school vouchers, allowing even middle-class families to use taxpayer money to send their kids to private schools.

Unlike other systems that are limited to lower-income households, children with special needs or those in failing schools, this one would be open to a much larger pool of students, including those whose parents earn up to $60,000 a year. And within three years, there would be no limit on the number of children who could enroll.

"The goal is to make sure as many kids as possible get choice," said Robert Enlow, president of the Foundation for Educational Choice, an Indianapolis-based advocacy group pushing for school vouchers.

Students receiving vouchers make up less than 1 percent of school enrollment nationwide, but vouchers have been one of the top priorities among conservatives. Indiana's Republican-controlled Legislature hopes to deliver soon on its long-sought overhaul of public education now that Democrats who fled the state have returned.

Democrats in the House stayed in Illinois for five weeks to deprive the chamber of a quorum because they did not have enough votes to stop the voucher proposal and others they oppose. They came back Monday, claiming victory after winning some concessions from the GOP on vouchers and other legislation.

The vouchers are government-issued certificates that can be applied to private tuition, essentially allowing parents to use some of the tax dollars that would normally be sent to public schools at other institutions.

The vouchers do not carry any additional expense for the state because they mainly transfer money between schools. But public-school advocates and many Democrats have long opposed large-scale voucher programs, saying they could siphon tax money from local districts, potentially leading to a steep decline in the quality of education.

"It's a national agenda," said Senate Minority Leader Vi Simpson, a Democrat from Bloomington. "And I think Indiana is the victim of it."

Until now, most voucher programs in the rest of the country have been limited to poor students, those in chronically failing schools or those with special needs.

Indiana's system would be significantly larger, offering money to students from middle-class homes and solid school districts. Though Republicans have agreed to some restrictions — to appease both Democrats and skeptics in their own ranks — the program would still be the most expansive in the United States.

"We fund education for a reason — to give individual children the skills they need to compete in life," said Luke Messer, former executive director of the Indiana Republican Party who now heads School Choice Indiana. "If the money follows the child, parents ought to have the right to put their child in whatever opportunity they think would best serve their family."

Lawmakers in the House are expected to take a key vote on the idea within days. If it passes, the bill would go next to the Senate. Because the GOP controls both chambers and the governor's office, some form of the legislation is likely to pass.

The actual value of the vouchers would be based on a sliding scale and would be less than the amount of tax money a public school would have received for that student. In the case of students in grades 1 through 8, the maximum value would be $4,500.

As originally introduced, Indiana's bill would have provided money to students from families of four making more than $100,000 a year.

The income limits were then lowered to about $80,000, and Republicans on Tuesday reduced them again to about $60,000 for a family of four. Lawmakers also capped the program at 7,500 students for the first year and 15,000 for the second year — a fraction of the state's approximately 1 million students.

By the third year, the caps on the number of participating students would expire.

The limits, which provide a foothold for expansion in years to come, are also intended to ease the minds of Republicans who are wary of an abrupt change or have other concerns.

For instance, state Sen. Brent Steele, a Republican from the small town of Bedford, has raised concerns about tax money being directed to religious schools, saying some Muslim schools teach extremism.

Several states already give certain students money to attend private school if they choose. Voucher programs are available to students in underperforming schools in Ohio, low-income students in Milwaukee and youths with disabilities in Florida, for example.

Momentum for vouchers been building since the 2010 election, which produced major Republican gains in many statehouses across the country. Several new Republican governors are pushing to make vouchers widely available.

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's proposed budget would repeal limits on Milwaukee's voucher program and offer them to any city resident. Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Ohio Gov. John Kasich want to expand their voucher systems, too.

And Pennsylvania Republicans are pushing a voucher bill that would subsidize private school tuition for low-income students, first for those in poorly performing schools but eventually for all low-income children in the state.

Voucher critics have watched the debate with alarm, fearing the potential harm to public schools and perceived threats to the separation of church and state.

"It's a blitzkrieg," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of Freedom From Religion Foundation based in Madison, Wis. "They're just like drunk with power. This is what we're seeing everywhere. They need to be stopped. Nobody campaigned on 'Let's rob the public schools and give all the money to parochial schools.'"

But some parents are demanding more options beyond public school.

Heather Coffy, a single mother of three in Indianapolis, said her oldest son was struggling in public school when she applied for a private school-choice scholarship. The money she received helped put her three kids in a Catholic school, where she says they are thriving.

"I will do anything possible to give them the education I know they deserve," Coffy said.



Should your tax-dollars be paying for people to send their kids to private schools?

[steff]

Should your tax-dollars be paying for people to send their kids to private schools

***********************************************************

No

[EVT1]

Yes, let's take more taxpayer money and give it to private corporations- never mind fixing the problems.

[handyman2]

Has tax dollars not been going to private colleges for years? For a private religious school there are problems for them in this. As colleges have found out the government that gives them money can also demand that they comply with Their regulations that may conflict with their religious tenents.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Just saw this thread. Why would anybody be against giving parents the right to choose a better school? I guess it just goes to show how some people are ok with their taxes going to a program that doesn't work very well instead of allowing people to use that same money to put themselves into a better situation.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Mar 29, 2011 20:44:43 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Yes, let's take more taxpayer money and give it to private corporations- never mind fixing the problems.

Maybe privatizing is the answer.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

The public education system is merely a powerful politcal base for the democratic party. Huge conflict of interest here.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

It doesn't cost you anymore and you get a better product. Go figure that some would be so against giving families more options. It would be like the government giving you a check to buy a car and saying that you have to use that money to buy a clunker.

[Value Buy]

If citizens want to send their children to a neighboring public school system that is better than their own, what happens to the better school system if their load capacity is already at 100%?
Do they build a bigger better school for more students? Who pays for it> the out of district parents, or the local homeowners who did not need it? What happens to the school property of the inner cities that will be abandoned? Are they left empty, torn down, or what?
Lots of questions with no real answers.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Democrats are so vehemently anti-choice on education that the only possible explaination is that they're so in bed with the teacher's unions and special interests that they simply can't abide parents and students doing what's best for them. The government run school monopoly - Democratic Party complex is one of the most transparently corrupt financial scams in the world. It's to the point that enough people see right through it, that it's shocking to watch Democrats so brazenly promote their anti-choice agenda. Nothing that is happening in Indiana hasn't already been tried in the living laboratory. It has succeeded wherever it has been given a fair chance to succeed, it will succeed in Indiana.

Once people are accustomed to school choice, the liberal dream of re-establishing their government run school monopoloy, the make-people-dumb-enough-to-vote-Democrat make-more-liberal-dupes education fraud, and their taxpayer-union-Democrat Political contribution money laundering scam will be dead for ever. It's got to be frightening to be a liberal Democrat, or liberal dupe watching a century of progressivism fail, and melt away. But as they say- thems the breaks. Deal with it.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Mar 30, 2011 8:47:28 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

If citizens want to send their children to a neighboring public school system that is better than their own, what happens to the better school system if their load capacity is already at 100%?
Do they build a bigger better school for more students? Who pays for it> the out of district parents, or the local homeowners who did not need it? What happens to the school property of the inner cities that will be abandoned? Are they left empty, torn down, or what?
Lots of questions with no real answers.

The failing shools are CLOSED, the failing teachers are FIRED, and the money is re-directed to the successful schools with successful teacers.

Kinda like in the private sector when Pedro's tacos are better than Pablo's tacos. The market will direct the resources. Pablo's taco stand will close, and Pablo will go find something he's actually good at. Pedro will make tacos.

[floridayankee]

Mar 30, 2011 8:47:28 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

If citizens want to send their children to a neighboring public school system that is better than their own, what happens to the better school system if their load capacity is already at 100%?

IMHO, the best way to handle that issue is first come, first serve until capacity is met with priority going to local children first, prior attendees second and then new transfers. You snooze...you loose. Try again next year.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

We have to be careful that vouchers don't become a Trojan Horse for government to ride into the private schools and ruin them. Private schools MUST be permitted to operate as they do now, NO GOVERNMENT STRINGS attached. And conservatives must stay true to princples. Vouchers must be a means to an end to condition people to pay for the goods and services they recieve. The objective should be an end to the government run school taxation, and the privatization of education altogether. We will not survive as a nation with the government run liberal dupe idiot factories we have now.

[EVT1]

liberals? Dupes? Idiot factories? What a well though out argument you make. You are that angry old white guy shaking your fist at the kids, aren't you.

Private schools are fine-but the baseline public schools need to be viable and funded accordingly- if it requires firing teachers, administrators, kicking out the problem students, so be it. There is nothing anti-choice- you can send your kid to the public school or pay for a private school- the tax dollars are for public education. Now if the whole 'privatization is the answer to everything' line is what you want to follow, then private schools need to make their case and replace the public schools- they do it with corrections. Vouchers are stupid and just complicate the mess.

And speaking of idiots- do you really think that an all private school system with no tax support will work? The country will be over-run with them, they will be illiterate, have no skills, no place to go- until they join a gang- which should see a massive increase on membership now that schools are only for the rich. Pretty soon one of them is going to decide they like your stuff more than theirs and take it from you along with your life. Is that the price you want to pay for your conservative utopia?

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Mar 30, 2011 10:17:56 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

liberals? Dupes? Idiot factories? What a well though out argument you make. You are that angry old white guy shaking your fist at the kids, aren't you.

Private schools are fine-but the baseline public schools need to be viable and funded accordingly- if it requires firing teachers, administrators, kicking out the problem students, so be it. There is nothing anti-choice- you can send your kid to the public school or pay for a private school- the tax dollars are for public education. Now if the whole 'privatization is the answer to everything' line is what you want to follow, then private schools need to make their case and replace the public schools- they do it with corrections. Vouchers are stupid and just complicate the mess.

And speaking of idiots- do you really think that an all private school system with no tax support will work? The country will be over-run with them, they will be illiterate, have no skills, no place to go- until they join a gang- which should see a massive increase on membership now that schools are only for the rich. Pretty soon one of them is going to decide they like your stuff more than theirs and take it from you along with your life. Is that the price you want to pay for your conservative utopia?

1. What does skin color have to do with it since you felt the need to say "You are that angry old white guy shaking your fist at the kids, aren't you."

2. Nobody is arguing the there isn't a need for education. You are trying to compare with using the funds already alloted to allow people to choose a better alternative than the schools they have now to people having no government vouchers and forced to pay for everything out of pocket.

3. As far as private institutions making their case, do you think they haven't already done that?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

liberals? Dupes? Idiot factories? What a well though out argument you make. You are that angry old white guy shaking your fist at the kids, aren't you.

Warsaw told me nonsensical name-calling replies are the "in" thing now. I am kind of old, and I guess that makes me a little insecure-- I was just trying to fit in.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Private schools are fine-but the baseline public schools need to be viable and funded accordingly- if it requires firing teachers, administrators, kicking out the problem students, so be it.

Incorrect. Nothing "needs" to be "funded". The market will direct the resources and tell us where they need to go. It works for gym shoes, groceries, televisions, furniture, eyeglasses, tanning, teeth whitening, interior paint colors, makeup, suntan lotion, bar soap, socks, jeans, video games, and it will work for schools, too.

There is nothing anti-choice- you can send your kid to the public school or pay for a private school- the tax dollars are for public education.

Why pay twice? It is unjust to say that if I like McDonald's, I can buy a Big Mac, but I have to pay Burger King for a Whopper I'm not going to eat. And speaking of whoppers...

Now if the whole 'privatization is the answer to everything' line is what you want to follow, then private schools need to make their case and replace the public schools- they do it with corrections. Vouchers are stupid and just complicate the mess.

I guess we could do that. Would you prefer we get together, move like locusts into school district after school district- de-fund, and dismantle the government school districts outright? Might take you up on that if we can't get true choice with OUR MONEY.

And speaking of idiots- do you really think that an all private school system with no tax support will work?

Yes.

The country will be over-run with them, they will be illiterate, have no skills, no place to go- until they join a gang- which should see a massive increase on membership now that schools are only for the rich. Pretty soon one of them is going to decide they like your stuff more than theirs and take it from you along with your life. Is that the price you want to pay for your conservative utopia?

There's ZERO evidence for this. However, we do know for a fact that this has been the result of the government run school monopoly. It's amazing you don't see it.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Mar 30, 2011 9:33:06 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Mar 30, 2011 8:47:28 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

If citizens want to send their children to a neighboring public school system that is better than their own, what happens to the better school system if their load capacity is already at 100%?

IMHO, the best way to handle that issue is first come, first serve until capacity is met with priority going to local children first, prior attendees second and then new transfers. You snooze...you loose. Try again next year.

It's really amazing- the only place opportunity is limited is when government steps in. The private market knows no such bounds. I mean, sure- you're not going to get a Ferrari just because you want one. Those are limited. But everyone who really wants one, and makes it a priority can have *a* car- and a good one.

Speaking of which, maybe government should apply "lemon laws" to its own products?

[EVT1]

Mar 30, 2011 11:10:03 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Incorrect. Nothing "needs" to be "funded". The market will direct the resources and tell us where they need to go. It works for gym shoes, groceries, televisions, furniture, eyeglasses, tanning, teeth whitening, interior paint colors, makeup, suntan lotion, bar soap, socks, jeans, video games, and it will work for schools, too.

Well if you pull that off I expect a large tax decrease- I never liked paying for other peoples kids in the first place, and speaking of taxes, I really don't understand the tax deductions for children- that makes about zero sense.

Stepping away from my selfish side, I still support public education and libraries-it is in everyone's best interest to educate our citizens. Hell, we do a crappy job already and can't keep up with other countries and yet you would rather make it worse by allowing only people with sufficient income to educate theirs? What are the rest going to do all day while Mommy and daddy are at work?

[handyman2]

Issuing vouchers to allow parents to send children to private schools is one thing I have problems with. By law it is the responsibility of all states to provide public education. If the system is not working well then fix it. But if they think giving private schools money is going to fix the problem they are wrong.
Keep in mind that private schools have no legal requirement to hire qualified teachers. They can put a high school dropout in the class if they want to. The one thing that is a plus in private schools most have stronger discipline requirements for students.
If public schools had a more rigid discipline policy it would help in several areas.
But all in all the weakest link to a good education is the parents. How do you solve that one?

[floridayankee]

Mar 30, 2011 12:15:52 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

Keep in mind that private schools have no legal requirement to hire qualified teachers. They can put a high school dropout in the class if they want to.

Yes, perhaps they could. And I went to a private college / university, so I assume they are not required to hire degreed teachers either and yet I do not know of any that did not have an advanced degree. They realize that in a private market, the customer (student) has a choice of where they will spend their money.

[ChiTownVenture]

Mar 30, 2011 9:33:28 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

We have to be careful that vouchers don't become a Trojan Horse for government to ride into the private schools and ruin them. Private schools MUST be permitted to operate as they do now, NO GOVERNMENT STRINGS attached. And conservatives must stay true to princples. Vouchers must be a means to an end to condition people to pay for the goods and services they recieve. The objective should be an end to the government run school taxation, and the privatization of education altogether. We will not survive as a nation with the government run liberal dupe idiot factories we have now.

If private schools are to run with no government intervention and the market is left to work its self out what is going to keep some "private" school from offering parents or students incentives to attend their school while not providing a quality education?

I can see schools offering free ipods, and computers while the students get substandard educations. There are parents that would jump on opportunities like that.

The failing shools are CLOSED, the failing teachers are FIRED, and the money is re-directed to the successful schools with successful teacers.

What happens to little johnny whos parents can't afford the $4/gallon gas to drive their children to an open school when all schools around them have closed?

[vonnie6200]

But if they think giving private schools money is going to fix the problem they are wrong.

But it just might fix the problem for individual students who are not getting an education at their local public school.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Stepping away from my selfish side, I still support public education and libraries-it is in everyone's best interest to educate our citizens.

Well, which is it? You need to make up your mind. You're really coming off as all over the place and really confused.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

What happens to little johnny whos parents can't afford the $4/gallon gas to drive their children to an open school when all schools around them have closed?

Private schools in suburban areas usually have buses to pick up students. In urban areas, like say NYC, public transit.

[ChiTownVenture]

Mar 30, 2011 13:59:59 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

What happens to little johnny whos parents can't afford the $4/gallon gas to drive their children to an open school when all schools around them have closed?

Private schools in suburban areas usually have buses to pick up students. In urban areas, like say NYC, public transit.

So in places like Chicago, parents should take the train over an hour to get to the suburbs and then ride an hour back so their kid can go to school?

[handyman2]

If those who think that privatizing education is going to be less expensive and better are just fooling themselves. First by law there will always and should be public education and a tax to support it.
What would happen if there was not public education? A majority of children would get no education at all.
Just look at countries where it is a pay as you go educational system. The majority of children never get an opportunity to get educated.
I challenge anyone to show me a country that does not have government educational systems that compare anywhere near the educational level that the US has. In fact in those countries only the children of the elite get a elementary, high school or college equivalent education.

[floridayankee]

Mar 30, 2011 13:32:39 GMT -5 ChiTownVenture said:

What happens to little johnny whos parents can't afford the $4/gallon gas to drive their children to an open school when all schools around them have closed?

They could buy an EV.....if the government wasn't already working on legislation to tax the crap out of the owners for having the audacity to go "off the grid" and weasel out of paying their share of gas taxes.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Man, I have to tell you- on this thread, and everywhere I look, liberal dupes are running scared. They're confused, they don't understand what's going on, they're uninformed, and they are so frightened as they see the steady progress we are making as a nation back towards liberty.

It's shock and awe out there. There is action on too many fronts for them to form a cohesive opposition. We are living in wonderful times of change as the old institutions of liberal power are swept away. Even that liberal dupe terrorist that works for SEIU that wanted to collapse the stock market admits it: unions are basically dead.

The government run school monopoly will soon no longer have its stranglehold on indocrtination of the youth- including the government run, taxpayer funded Barack Hussein Obama Male Leadership Acadamy for the Obama Youth- part of the Dallas Independent School District (you must be so proud) www.dallasisd.org/schools/realtor_new.cfm?id_con=63

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Choice is coming.