Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 17, 2018 11:16:00 GMT -5
I could not disagree more. Child abuse is most definitely NOT a “cost of freedom”!!! Then I suppose we'll have to agree to not be able to disagree more. Freedom is ultimately the deciding principle, but you might also want to check the baseline body count from abuse, bullying, addiction, rape, and mental illness in US public schools before crying "Won't somebody think of the children!"
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jan 17, 2018 11:21:29 GMT -5
I could not disagree more. Child abuse is most definitely NOT a “cost of freedom”!!! Then I suppose we'll have to agree to not be able to disagree more. Freedom is ultimately the deciding principle, but you might also want to check the baseline body count from abuse, bullying, addiction, rape, and mental illness in US public schools before crying "Won't somebody think of the children!" No way will I accept the premise that child abuse is an acceptable price of freedom.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 17, 2018 11:30:15 GMT -5
Well, just finished mandatory reporter training today as it happens... and the number of child line referrals in my state hovers at 30,000 a year. Unfortunately, it is the "mandatory reporting" that is causing such a large number of cases.
My niece's boyfriend works for CPS and he said 1 out of 10 cases called in are valid (the cases he gets called out to in our county, I can't speak statewide). Those most cased called in my mandatory reports are BS but everyone is so afraid of not calling in the smallest thing that everything gets called in. it bogs down the system and wastes valuable resources. Obviously they need to investigate each one because you will never know which ones are valid but there needs to be better training on what is valid versus not.
I also speak from experience on this as my daughter's teacher called on me...for a scratch she got AT SCHOOL (and literally a scratch on her arm, not a bruise, not a deep cut but a damn scratch!)! Luckily our TSS worker was at the school when it happened and saw everything. But it is a huge waste of resources when you have idiots calling in for things like that. Much better training is needed all the way around.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 17, 2018 14:54:23 GMT -5
Well, just finished mandatory reporter training today as it happens... and the number of child line referrals in my state hovers at 30,000 a year. Unfortunately, it is the "mandatory reporting" that is causing such a large number of cases.
My niece's boyfriend works for CPS and he said 1 out of 10 cases called in are valid (the cases he gets called out to in our county, I can't speak statewide). Those most cased called in my mandatory reports are BS but everyone is so afraid of not calling in the smallest thing that everything gets called in. it bogs down the system and wastes valuable resources. Obviously they need to investigate each one because you will never know which ones are valid but there needs to be better training on what is valid versus not.
I also speak from experience on this as my daughter's teacher called on me...for a scratch she got AT SCHOOL (and literally a scratch on her arm, not a bruise, not a deep cut but a damn scratch!)! Luckily our TSS worker was at the school when it happened and saw everything. But it is a huge waste of resources when you have idiots calling in for things like that. Much better training is needed all the way around.
I guess it's kind of like cancer screenings, which often show false positives.
Would you rather put up with the scare and expense of doing a retest for what turns out to be a false positive cancer scare or skip the cancer screening and end up with cancer?
I can tolerate the false positives - but more resources are definitely needed, so the follow ups can be done more quickly, to winnow out the ones that aren't a concern. Unfortunately we as a society talk big about protecting our kids but often there's no money behind the talk.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 17, 2018 15:03:32 GMT -5
I could not disagree more. Child abuse is most definitely NOT a “cost of freedom”!!! Then I suppose we'll have to agree to not be able to disagree more. Freedom is ultimately the deciding principle, but you might also want to check the baseline body count from abuse, bullying, addiction, rape, and mental illness in US public schools before crying "Won't somebody think of the children!" Asking for an annual visit/review of the homeschooling program isn't the same as taking away someone's freedom. You aren't being forced to send your kid to school, just provide documentation that you're giving your kid an education that will meet the same minimum standards a public education should provide - that seems reasonable. I would be concerned if a home schooling parent couldn't provide such a minimum amount of documentation.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 17, 2018 15:39:04 GMT -5
Then I suppose we'll have to agree to not be able to disagree more. Freedom is ultimately the deciding principle, but you might also want to check the baseline body count from abuse, bullying, addiction, rape, and mental illness in US public schools before crying "Won't somebody think of the children!" Asking for an annual visit/review of the homeschooling program isn't the same as taking away someone's freedom. You aren't being forced to send your kid to school, just provide documentation that you're giving your kid an education that will meet the same minimum standards a public education should provide - that seems reasonable. I would be concerned if a home schooling parent couldn't provide such a minimum amount of documentation. Again, if it could be trusted to stop at this, I'd consent to it. But history has shown time and again that governments will not stop, and parents have no recourse. It's the slipperiest of slippery slopes. As regrettable as it is inevitable. In fairness to your side of the argument, governments also inevitably ban homeschooling as they consolidate power, hence the issue of reporting for homeschooling is, in a sense, moot. The difference is that it's easier to institute reporting and progressively ratchet up control until homeschooling is untenable than it is to ban homeschooling outright.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jan 17, 2018 15:46:48 GMT -5
I’m not familiar with the Canadian constitution, but your claim that parents have “no recourse” against the government’s intrusion into their ability to raise their children is not true in the U.S. (That pesky 14th Amendment.)
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 17, 2018 15:48:53 GMT -5
Asking for an annual visit/review of the homeschooling program isn't the same as taking away someone's freedom. You aren't being forced to send your kid to school, just provide documentation that you're giving your kid an education that will meet the same minimum standards a public education should provide - that seems reasonable. I would be concerned if a home schooling parent couldn't provide such a minimum amount of documentation. Again, if it could be trusted to stop at this, I'd consent to it. But history has shown time and again that governments will not stop, and parents have no recourse. It's the slipperiest of slippery slopes. As regrettable as it is inevitable. In fairness to your side of the argument, governments also inevitably ban homeschooling as they consolidate power, hence the issue of reporting for homeschooling is, in a sense, moot. The difference is that it's easier to institute reporting and progressively ratchet up control until homeschooling is untenable than it is to ban homeschooling outright. In my lifetime, home schooling used to be something no one did except families who lived in very remote areas, too far off to attend school, to being a very popular activity. If anything, home schooling is getting easier, not harder to do.
What you're describing actually sounds like what the anti-abortion advocates have done, to eliminate abortion without actually passing laws against it - making it harder and harder for a woman to find an abortion in her state, implementing new rules on clinics until it's become almost impossible to obtain an abortion at all, even though it remains legal. But I would say the opposite has been true for home schooling. My niece home schools, for three kids, and from what I can tell, they do workbooks for a couple hours a day and that's it - I think she's avoiding science completely, for religious reasons, which concerns me in case one of them decides he wants to be a doctor or an engineer. But it's her kids, and perfectly legal. I don't think we're in danger of the government showing up at your house with guns and frog marching your kids to the nearest school just because they ask them to take a test once a year to show they are actually learning something.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 17, 2018 15:54:47 GMT -5
It may have changed since it’s been more than a decade since I taught but homeschoolers had to show they were on level every year . If they were not, no more homeschooling. That prevented parents from not doing their job and just letting kids just watch tv all day long. I still see a lot of school age kids just out and about during the day with their parents.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:28:14 GMT -5
Homeschooling WAS illegal... many states until relatively recently.
Every state has different regulations Zib. Some are very lax. None that I know of have a 'on the level' demonstration... no school I know of can actually guarantee that for all kids either.
Kids have freedoms too you know V. Rights. Rights to be free from abuse, rights to be educated in a manner that will allow them to be self sustaining beings.
Always amazes the fuck out of me when people who argue that a 'fetus has rights' then go on to deny any kind of basic rights to a living child.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 17, 2018 16:42:17 GMT -5
I’m sure the level is set low. Just like our standards.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 17, 2018 16:43:52 GMT -5
I'm reading a lot of different stuff about this from all different news sites : It's not okay to force your children to do marching exercises at 1am to 3am in the fucking morning. It's not fucking okay to watch your wife's sister shower. Shit the woman was in College, and her sicko BIL used to watch her shower.
PERVERSION is not even half of it with this case, it's just plain sick, sick, sick and more sick. I'm thankful the 17 year old got up the guts to leave and tell the police, she's the first sane one in the family, imo.
And these parents was Christian in name only, do as I say, not as I do.
If you want links go to Fox news and MSN.ca or MSN.com.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 17, 2018 17:42:27 GMT -5
Homeschooling WAS illegal... many states until relatively recently. Every state has different regulations Zib. Some are very lax. None that I know of have a 'on the level' demonstration... no school I know of can actually guarantee that for all kids either. Kids have freedoms too you know V. Rights. Rights to be free from abuse, rights to be educated in a manner that will allow them to be self sustaining beings. Always amazes the fuck out of me when people who argue that a 'fetus has rights' then go on to deny any kind of basic rights to a living child. If homeschooling unmonitored by a massive bureaucracy means a child has no rights, what do you say to the societies throughout the millennia (many of which still exist today) where children were taught totally unsupervised by a massive bureaucracy? Their children have no rights? But if you want to talk about denial of rights, let's talk about denial of rights. What about a child's right to not attend a terrible public school? As bad as you claim homeschooling in the US is, study after study confirms that homeschooled kids in the US do significantly better than their publicly schooled counterparts. What about the child's right to attend a school free of violence, bullying, drugs, gangs, and apathetic teachers? Public schools certainly can't guarantee it. It's a crapshoot. In some cities (ironically, many having the highest per-student spending), public schools can't even afford heat circa 2018. How about a child's right to keep the income they earn? No can do, kiddo. That income is needed to fund failing public schools, homeschooling monitors, and six thousand other state programs besides, all growing in real time. Maybe it all works out in the end. The government keeps close tabs on homeschooled students, and if they start to slip, threatens to throw them in a SuperMax public school as punishment. The students never slip up again.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jan 17, 2018 19:02:54 GMT -5
Deflection, Virgil. Deflection....
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grits
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Post by grits on Jan 17, 2018 19:14:13 GMT -5
Why do "good Christians" feel the need to protect their children from the "evils" of the world - such to the point that they sequester their children away from the world (which eventually involves the use of chains and locks or other sorts of confinement)?
This isn't all that uncommon...
Before you make such an accusation against a large group of people, should you not present a large number of facts?
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grits
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Post by grits on Jan 17, 2018 19:17:05 GMT -5
Personally, I think criminally deranged people should never again be released into society. The mother is so out of it she spat at people after her arrest.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jan 17, 2018 22:54:25 GMT -5
PA actually relaxed their code a few years ago and I opposed it. You no longer have to hand your portfolio or test scores to the district at year end, just to your evaluator. All the district gets is an evaluator report and medical documentation. There are height and weight checks every year to submit and some kind of medical screening (eye, dental, physical). Meaning theoretically at least two people are putting eyes to the child besides a parent. I liked a second reviewer in the form of someone from the district though, to catch any red flags I might have missed. With few exceptions, I only eval anymore for families who I know well and see multiple times per year. Strong regulations actually help to protect homeschoolers in my opinion. NO ONE should want to shelter abusers under their umbrella. On this annual screening program, what would they be looking for? Why do "good Christians" feel the need to protect their children from the "evils"
That would be a good place to start,, Are you a "good christian?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 23:09:30 GMT -5
Well, the obvious lack of gains in height weight would have been noted. Also a doctor-dentist- would have seen the malnutrition, also lack of academic progress if applicable. A portfolio might or might not have demonstrated red flags.
As an evaluator I also represent another adult who can advocate for a child, a point of potential disclosure, etc. An evaluation in PA requires an interview with the student.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 18, 2018 10:51:11 GMT -5
Just nasty. "The 13 starving siblings held captive in a California house were allowed to eat only one rationed meal a day and shower just twice a year, a law enforcement official with knowledge of the case told NBC News. Those disturbing details emerged just hours before David Allen Turpin, 57, and his wife, Louisa Anna Turpin, 49, were expected to make their first court appearance. They face possible torture and child endangerment charges." California torture house: 13 siblings allowed to eat once a day, shower twice a year
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 18, 2018 11:17:48 GMT -5
Why do "good Christians" feel the need to protect their children from the "evils" of the world - such to the point that they sequester their children away from the world (which eventually involves the use of chains and locks or other sorts of confinement)?
This isn't all that uncommon...
Before you make such an accusation against a large group of people, should you not present a large number of facts? Well, that was Good Christian in quotes. Kind like the way someone might refer to a man who they wish to imply isn't really a man - by using quotes: yeah, he's a real "man" what with that limp wrist and all. You know with a wink wink nudge nudge implied. And I would think that since most sensational news stories about family abuse of children seem to have the component of the parents being labeled Good Christians (no quotes) I wouldn't need to throw out a lot of links.
I guess it depends on if you view them as Good Christians or "good Christians" which might just be an inflection in the way you say it (or the quotes when you see it).
FWIW: How come more religious organizations DON"T seem to do anything or say much of anything when something like this happens? Here we appear to have people claiming to be Good Christians - but it seems the religious communities who's character is being besmirched does nothing... other than a few members saying "oh they weren't Good Christians".
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 18, 2018 11:27:11 GMT -5
PA actually relaxed their code a few years ago and I opposed it. You no longer have to hand your portfolio or test scores to the district at year end, just to your evaluator. All the district gets is an evaluator report and medical documentation. There are height and weight checks every year to submit and some kind of medical screening (eye, dental, physical). Meaning theoretically at least two people are putting eyes to the child besides a parent. I liked a second reviewer in the form of someone from the district though, to catch any red flags I might have missed. With few exceptions, I only eval anymore for families who I know well and see multiple times per year. Strong regulations actually help to protect homeschoolers in my opinion. NO ONE should want to shelter abusers under their umbrella. On this annual screening program, what would they be looking for? Why do "good Christians" feel the need to protect their children from the "evils"
That would be a good place to start,, Are you a "good christian? No, I'm an atheist - so I'm not sure I can ever be a Good Christian I try to be genuinely compassionate, try my best to treat people fairly, try to the do the right things even when maybe I don't want to (or it's just unpleasant). but I would simply be going thru the motions of expressing my belief in God (praying, religious ceremonies, any sort of religious scripted socially acceptable sayings). I opted to stop faking my religiousness - because it felt false it was a sham and I felt like I was misleading people (letting them assume I was religious based on my use of religious stuff) even though it didn't really hurt anyone. So, I stopped do it.
The good Christian thing makes me wonder. It seems perhaps the parents that did the abuse might have genuinely felt that they were being good and doing what God wanted.
How do you know when you are being the right kind of Good Christian? Are there different varieties of Good Christians?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jan 18, 2018 14:07:58 GMT -5
If they are a good Christian, They are up to no good. I read about how bad Christians on here all the time,
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 18, 2018 14:19:08 GMT -5
If they are a good Christian, They are up to no good. I read about how bad Christians on here all the time, really, where? I read about how people pretend to be Christian but they're really nasty and judgmental people. I think those people are jerks and deserved to be called out for being hypocrites. I think Jesus's teachings are awesome and we should love each other and all do our part of care for the less fortunate. I also don't think Jesus gives a crap about who sleeps with who. But what do i know, I'm a recovering Catholic agnostic.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 18, 2018 14:20:11 GMT -5
On this annual screening program, what would they be looking for? Why do "good Christians" feel the need to protect their children from the "evils"
That would be a good place to start,, Are you a "good christian? No, I'm an atheist - so I'm not sure I can ever be a Good Christian I try to be genuinely compassionate, try my best to treat people fairly, try to the do the right things even when maybe I don't want to (or it's just unpleasant). but I would simply be going thru the motions of expressing my belief in God (praying, religious ceremonies, any sort of religious scripted socially acceptable sayings). I opted to stop faking my religiousness - because it felt false it was a sham and I felt like I was misleading people (letting them assume I was religious based on my use of religious stuff) even though it didn't really hurt anyone. So, I stopped do it.
The good Christian thing makes me wonder. It seems perhaps the parents that did the abuse might have genuinely felt that they were being good and doing what God wanted.
How do you know when you are being the right kind of Good Christian? Are there different varieties of Good Christians?
My guess is that when you are not actively hurting someone with your words, your actions, or your beliefs, you are being a good christian.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 21, 2018 15:36:07 GMT -5
A small Texas town knew something wasn't right. Kids in the neighborhood tried to engage these kids and got nowhere. Texas neighbors suspected Turpins before move to Perris Los Angeles Times > Molly Hennessy-Fiske, Paloma Esquivel To neighbor Ricky Vinyard, the Turpin family seemed odd from the moment they arrived at the end of his remote dirt road in this small town 50 miles south of Fort Worth, where they had lived earlier. “When they moved in, they were really mysterious people. They didn’t talk to us or socialize,” recalled Vinyard of that day in 2000. www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/texas-neighbors-suspected-turpins-before-move-to-perris/ar-AAuX0rX?li=AAggNb9
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Feb 23, 2018 21:28:49 GMT -5
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tigerpause
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Post by tigerpause on Feb 24, 2018 12:57:06 GMT -5
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Feb 24, 2018 13:21:40 GMT -5
Thanks tigerpause, for posting that, that's wonderful news.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Feb 24, 2018 19:09:18 GMT -5
If they lived out in the middle of the woods somewhere this would seem more believable. But they were right smack in the middle of suburbia with a lot of homes, traffic, etc. Shocking.
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