|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 11:46:23 GMT -5
Like I said, what free markets? Mom and Pops don't stand a chance in America anymore. You just described the seeds of "fascism", not "capitalism". Mom and pops shouldn't stand a chance, they were lousing at running their business in the first place, didn't pay for crap, relied on child labor and had little benefits. So why should a market favor any of that? I'll tell my grandfather and great uncle that, or the small farmer across the road. Confucius say: He who try to do bizness in laughable fascism should move ovasea. |
|
ugonow
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 3,397 
|
Post by ugonow on Dec 29, 2010 11:48:18 GMT -5
Free markets have decided mom and pop should stay home. [well,they can buy a franchise....]
|
|
|
|
Post by magichat on Dec 29, 2010 11:48:54 GMT -5
Mom and pops shouldn't stand a chance, they were lousing at running their business in the first place, didn't pay for crap, relied on child labor and had little benefits. So why should a market favor any of that? I'll tell my grandfather and great uncle that, or the small farmer across the road. Confucius say: He who try to do bizness in laughable fascism should move ovasea. And how many people do your Grandfather or Uncle employ? Most farmers don't employ anbody and rely on their kids do the work. |
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 11:49:08 GMT -5
Can you say with a straight face this is not how the free market system works? Do you think K Street has no connections to government agencies or legislations? They hold the purse strings.Do you have any idea how many politicians are lobbyists,were lobbyists or employ lobbyists? Mony talks,bs walks.The free market works. Yes, because I've read Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments. You? You have an incorrect definition of capitalism, according to the classicals. You are describing soft fascism. |
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 11:51:32 GMT -5
I'll tell my grandfather and great uncle that, or the small farmer across the road. Confucius say: He who try to do bizness in laughable fascism should move ovasea.
And how many people do your Grandfather or Uncle employ? Most farmers don't employ anbody and rely on their kids do the work. Small businesses were the backbone of this country. Make small biz difficult and you kill the golden goose...although I would wager the bureaucrats and corporatists know and are in the process of looting before the collapse. |
|
ugonow
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by ugonow on Dec 29, 2010 11:52:16 GMT -5
So all those newley elected tea party backed candidates hiring lobyists are facists? No.They know this is how the free market works.Money talks,bs walks.
|
|
|
|
Post by magichat on Dec 29, 2010 11:53:30 GMT -5
And how many people do your Grandfather or Uncle employ? Most farmers don't employ anbody and rely on their kids do the work. Small businesses were the backbone of this country. Make small biz difficult and you kill the golden goose...although I would wager the bureaucrats and corporatists know and are in the process of looting before the collapse. Small business is still the backbone of this country. But how many small business pharma startups can afford a pair of specially engineered mice at about $100,000 a piece to do their research? |
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 11:54:04 GMT -5
So all those newley elected tea party backed candidates hiring lobyists are facists? No.They know this is how the free market works.Money talks,bs walks. That is not the "free market". I give up. If you haven't read Adam Smith or David Ricardo, this conversation is pointless and is a perfect example why I will vote for the most profligate politicians henceforth. LOL, the term "lobbyist" didn't even exist when our country was founded. I wonder why? |
|
ugonow
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by ugonow on Dec 29, 2010 11:55:17 GMT -5
Mom and pop don't even stand a chance at selling pharma products.They can not compeat with the big drug stores chains.The free markets have spoken and mom and pop lost.
|
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 11:56:13 GMT -5
Small businesses were the backbone of this country. Make small biz difficult and you kill the golden goose...although I would wager the bureaucrats and corporatists know and are in the process of looting before the collapse. Small business is still the backbone of this country. But how many small business pharma startups can afford a pair of specially engineered mice at about $100,000 a piece to do their research? Talk to the bankers who collude with the govt. to destroy our currency that is used to buy those mice. Or the FDA who regulates the medical industry to the point of stifling the startups. |
|
|
|
Post by magichat on Dec 29, 2010 11:59:15 GMT -5
Small business is still the backbone of this country. But how many small business pharma startups can afford a pair of specially engineered mice at about $100,000 a piece to do their research? Talk to the bankers who collude with the govt. to destroy our currency that is used to buy those mice. Or the FDA who regulates the medical industry to the point of stifling the startups. Exactly how easy do you think it is to create mice that are genetically suspectible to certain kinds of cancer? Inflation is relative so it has little to do with the cost of mice. And this research is required whether the FDA is around or not. |
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 12:00:30 GMT -5
Talk to the bankers who collude with the govt. to destroy our currency that is used to buy those mice. Or the FDA who regulates the medical industry to the point of stifling the startups. Exactly how easy do you think it is to create mice that are genetically suspectible to certain kinds of cancer? Inflation is relative so it has little to do with the cost of mice. And this research is required whether the FDA is around or not. "Required" by whom??? Only the markets can appropriately determine what is "required". |
|
ugonow
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by ugonow on Dec 29, 2010 12:01:56 GMT -5
Or the FDA who regulates the medical industry to the point of stifling the startups.
Darn FDA stifled me from bringing the best antidepressant onto the market in years.They had all kinds of regulations I could not meet in my bathroom lab.
|
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 12:05:12 GMT -5
Or the FDA who regulates the medical industry to the point of stifling the startups.
Darn FDA stifled me from bringing the best antidepressant onto the market in years.They had all kinds of regulations I could not meet in my bathroom lab. Riiiight, I'm sure in your "bathroom lab", you had years to study the effects on people. Or did you just grease the wheels with the head of the FDA, so that all you had to do is add the "could cause blindness and incontinence" disclaimers at the bottom of the TV ad? Funny, weed is illegal, but if you have enough money to bribe the regulators, you can get anything approved for human consumption. But I digress. |
|
ugonow
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 3,397
|
Post by ugonow on Dec 29, 2010 12:06:37 GMT -5
I understand now.It is the government's fault people chose to patrionize the big chain lower priced drug stores instead on mom and pops no purchasing power higher priced drug stores.The government shut them down,not the free market. The government forced consumers to shop at the big chains..........
|
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 12:08:30 GMT -5
I understand now.It is the government's fault people chose to patrionize the big chain lower priced drug stores instead on mom and pops no purchasing power higher priced drug stores.The government shut them down,not the free market. The government forced consumers to shop at the big chains.......... No, it's the govt.'s fault that it is a revolving door for the special interests. You're really attached to this whole notion of "American free markets", no matter how patently absurd it is. Question: How can you have free markets in anything if you don't have free markets in the medium of exchange? |
|
ronbuck
Initiate Member
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 14:23:47 GMT -5
Posts: 54
|
Post by ronbuck on Dec 29, 2010 12:33:31 GMT -5
A post in another thread got me thinking. Would it be possible to pass a law in Congress requiring that Pharmaceutical companies export their drugs to other countries without decreasing the price? Probably unconstitutional as all get out but it would keep the US from subsidizing drugs costs to countless other countries. I don't believe we actually subsidize drug cost to other countries. Big pharma is selling drugs in other countries for increased profits on the margin while keeping prices low enough to avoid patent infringement. We see the same issues in drug prices that we see in all areas of medicine here in the USA.....mostly price being distorted by third party payers. If someone else (insurance or government) is (largely) paying for my prescription, then I want the best and newest. If I am sell pay, I want the best value which may be an older drug which is 90% as effective but at only 10% of the price. We confuse "insurance", whether privitely provided or by governmental agencies with "pre-paid" medical services, distorting the market to a point where there is no market. Most people have no idea what medical services or prescriptions cost. They only know what their co-pay is. Lack of information equals poor choices. |
|
|
|
Post by magichat on Dec 29, 2010 12:40:09 GMT -5
Exactly how easy do you think it is to create mice that are genetically suspectible to certain kinds of cancer? Inflation is relative so it has little to do with the cost of mice. And this research is required whether the FDA is around or not. "Required" by whom??? Only the markets can appropriately determine what is "required". By good standard practices to develop new drugs. How do you develop a drug to treat a certain kind of cancer? By studying mice that you can give that cancer to, and then trying out varying treatments. Removing the FDA would not remove the quality practices that happy in research daily. |
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 12:45:53 GMT -5
"Required" by whom??? Only the markets can appropriately determine what is "required". By good standard practices to develop new drugs. How do you develop a drug to treat a certain kind of cancer? By studying mice that you can give that cancer to, and then trying out varying treatments. Removing the FDA would not remove the quality practices that happy in research daily. Agreed, MH. The markets would necessarily provide checks and balances because businesses would not want to be bankrupted by correct civil/criminal proceedings. But -- it WOULD remove an unconstitutional agency (or at the least, a Constitutional agency per general welfare, that is acting unconstitutionally) from the chain of corruption. There is no doubt the FDA plays favorites. |
|
|
|
Post by magichat on Dec 29, 2010 12:50:55 GMT -5
By good standard practices to develop new drugs. How do you develop a drug to treat a certain kind of cancer? By studying mice that you can give that cancer to, and then trying out varying treatments. Removing the FDA would not remove the quality practices that happy in research daily. Agreed, MH. The markets would necessarily provide checks and balances because businesses would not want to be bankrupted by correct civil/criminal proceedings. But -- it WOULD remove an unconstitutional agency (or at the least, a Constitutional agency per general welfare, that is acting unconstitutionally) from the chain of corruption. There is no doubt the FDA plays favorites. I don't disagree, but I still think mom and pop are pushed out of the market for several reasons, much of which would be their poor practices and technology pushing past the limit of a small start up being able to compete. How does a startup develop a clean room facility when we are talking a $800/sq ft for new construction? |
|
|
|
Post by traelin0 on Dec 29, 2010 12:53:54 GMT -5
Agreed, MH. The markets would necessarily provide checks and balances because businesses would not want to be bankrupted by correct civil/criminal proceedings. But -- it WOULD remove an unconstitutional agency (or at the least, a Constitutional agency per general welfare, that is acting unconstitutionally) from the chain of corruption. There is no doubt the FDA plays favorites. I don't disagree, but I still think mom and pop are pushed out of the market for several reasons, much of which would be their poor practices and technology pushing past the limit of a small start up being able to compete. How does a startup develop a clean room facility when we are talking a $800/sq ft for new construction? I also can't disagree with your logic here, but I would add that you are probably coming from the ideal scenario of creative destruction, which is what I would love to see again. When we did have free markets, the Mom and Pops with bad business models went out of business. Now, anything that moves and is deemed too important by govt. will be propped up. And for obvious reasons, that is usually the biggest of the big. |
|
