djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 22, 2018 14:22:34 GMT -5
...including separating tens of thousands of children from their innocent families. The price of getting the job done. I won't categorically condemn or approve of this here, simply state it as fact. Not by any definition of "success" that counts costs or collateral damage, or looks forward even five years. But let's suppose you're right and all the death, destruction, and children separated from families is the regrettable but necessary cost of winning a war and establishing order. (Indeed if I believed as you do that the US's campaign over in the Middle East would actually bring lasting peace, I'd agree the campaign was justified.) But then why on Earth would I condemn Pres. Trump for taking the necessary steps to secure the US border, win the war (and make no mistake: the fight to secure the border is a war), and establish a lasting peace on US soil? At a tiny fraction of the cost and collateral damage of your campaigns in the Middle East, no less? How can you call annihilation of families abroad the necessary cost of establishing order and then balk at atrocities a tiny fraction of the size back at home? You can't even fall back to the old standby, "the people suffering aren't Americans," because the families being torn asunder here indeed aren't Americans. By all rights you should be out there on Team Trump, chanting "Rah rah America" as he wins the war for you, using "almost all means to do so". Instead you're right here in the thick of things crying great crocodile tears. I don't know about anybody else, but with you I'd bet a million dollars and a million snow leopard pelts that if this "kids separated from families" story had broken in June 2015 or June 2016, you'd be defending the measure as "tough but necessary" until your dying breath. You and another member whose name I won't mention because (s)he's not here but whose support for "tough but necessary" predictably flips on and off like a switch depending on who's in power. The only thing worse than a bleeding heart is a bleeding heart that flips on and off like a switch.
you shouldn't condemn the necessary steps- but you should condemn the utterly unneccessary ones. separating families at the border does not make the border more secure. even the POtuS says so (now).
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 22, 2018 14:31:20 GMT -5
You continue to provide no support for your assertion that implementation of this policy did not change under trump. Let me clarify the record: I am not contesting that a change in the implementation of the policy occurred under Pres. Trump. I am admonishing you for the hypocrisy of expressing such outrage over this change, as it constitutes nothing more than a minor increment in a series of dozens of increments spanning decades, none of which you've ever publicly condemned on this site (please correct me if I'm wrong). Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge you've never expressed such outrage over programs and campaigns leading to similar harm of vastly greater magnitude (please correct me if I'm wrong). If you'd like evidence of the "dozens of increments spanning decades", please consult the various links I've posted, most recently the report by the Senate Judiciary Committee. If you're sticking to your "This increment is the only one that matters." argument, I obviously disagree, and at this point we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 22, 2018 14:35:56 GMT -5
...including separating tens of thousands of children from their innocent families. The price of getting the job done. I won't categorically condemn or approve of this here, simply state it as fact. Not by any definition of "success" that counts costs or collateral damage, or looks forward even five years. But let's suppose you're right and all the death, destruction, and children separated from families is the regrettable but necessary cost of winning a war and establishing order. (Indeed if I believed as you do that the US's campaign over in the Middle East would actually bring lasting peace, I'd agree the campaign was justified.) But then why on Earth would I condemn Pres. Trump for taking the necessary steps to secure the US border, win the war (and make no mistake: the fight to secure the border is a war), and establish a lasting peace on US soil? At a tiny fraction of the cost and collateral damage of your campaigns in the Middle East, no less? How can you call annihilation of families abroad the necessary cost of establishing order and then balk at atrocities a tiny fraction of the size back at home? You can't even fall back to the old standby, "the people suffering aren't Americans," because the families being torn asunder here indeed aren't Americans. By all rights you should be out there on Team Trump, chanting "Rah rah America" as he wins the war for you, using "almost all means to do so". Instead you're right here in the thick of things crying great crocodile tears. I don't know about anybody else, but with you I'd bet a million dollars and a million snow leopard pelts that if this "kids separated from families" story had broken in June 2015 or June 2016, you'd be defending the measure as "tough but necessary" until your dying breath. You and another member whose name I won't mention because (s)he's not here but whose support for "tough but necessary" predictably flips on and off like a switch depending on who's in power. The only thing worse than a bleeding heart is a bleeding heart that flips on and off like a switch.
you shouldn't condemn the necessary steps- but you should condemn the utterly unneccessary ones. separating families at the border does not make the border more secure. even the POtuS says so (now). "Necessary steps" and "US foreign policy since 2001, and especially 2013" shouldn't appear in the same paragraph, which is why I had to reply to Demin in the hypothetical. Indeed, I don't believe separation at the border is necessary, and indeed this is why the policy should be abolished.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 22, 2018 14:51:24 GMT -5
However, Trump made a decision to generate a crisis on the border in order to galvanize support from his base. To create the faux crisis, he had DHS enforce a law that was on the books but not previously enforced because previous administrations deemed it too inhumane. Not too inhumane for Trump, however. The definition of ''evil" is to treat kids like stage props in a game to get your Trumpettes excited about the midterms. It was previously enforced by previous administrations (see SJC report), just not in 100% of cases. The stated rationale for enforcing it fully was because it would ultimately act as a deterrent, which may well be correct. Your supposition that Pres. Trump did it to "create the faux crisis" is simply that: supposition. Speculation. Your best guess, backed up by your gut. You're asking me to chalk up toppling of numerous stable governments, arming of radical militants, and the destruction of literally millions of lives/homes--including hundreds of thousands of children--as the cost of establishing peace and order overseas, but at the same time expecting me to agree with you that 5,000 kids temporarily housed in a migrant detention center while their parents are prosecuted is unconscionable. If this makes sense to you because one is unofficially-maybe-sort-of a war and the other is "just securing the border", perhaps there is some truth to Paul's theory that the American left has gone insane.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 22, 2018 14:53:56 GMT -5
Virgil I have precious little time to post on here of late, and I certainly have no time to reply to much of your foolishness. Suffice it to say that you have NO fucking idea of my opinions or ideas on this or apparently any matter, despite my many years of opining on this board. Oh well. Yeah. "Oh well." I'm not going to drag your Pax Americana crap out of the ether just to prove it to you.
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 22, 2018 15:23:26 GMT -5
You continue to provide no support for your assertion that implementation of this policy did not change under trump. Let me clarify the record: I am not contesting that a change in the implementation of the policy occurred under Pres. Trump. I am admonishing you for the hypocrisy of expressing such outrage over this change, as it constitutes nothing more than a minor increment in a series of dozens of increments spanning decades, none of which you've ever publicly condemned on this site (please correct me if I'm wrong). Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge you've never expressed such outrage over programs and campaigns leading to similar harm of vastly greater magnitude (please correct me if I'm wrong). If you'd like evidence of the "dozens of increments spanning decades", please consult the various links I've posted, most recently the report by the Senate Judiciary Committee. If you're sticking to your "This increment is the only one that matters." argument, I obviously disagree, and at this point we'll have to agree to disagree.
Define "minor increment".
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 22, 2018 16:40:18 GMT -5
However, Trump made a decision to generate a crisis on the border in order to galvanize support from his base. To create the faux crisis, he had DHS enforce a law that was on the books but not previously enforced because previous administrations deemed it too inhumane. Not too inhumane for Trump, however. The definition of ''evil" is to treat kids like stage props in a game to get your Trumpettes excited about the midterms. It was previously enforced by previous administrations (see SJC report), just not in 100% of cases. The stated rationale for enforcing it fully was because it would ultimately act as a deterrent, which may well be correct. Your supposition that Pres. Trump did it to "create the faux crisis" is simply that: supposition. Speculation. Your best guess, backed up by your gut. You're asking me to chalk up toppling of numerous stable governments, arming of radical militants, and the destruction of literally millions of lives/homes--including hundreds of thousands of children--as the cost of establishing peace and order overseas, but at the same time expecting me to agree with you that 5,000 kids temporarily housed in a migrant detention center while their parents are prosecuted is unconscionable. If this makes sense to you because one is unofficially-maybe-sort-of a war and the other is "just securing the border", perhaps there is some truth to Paul's theory that the American left has gone insane.
So your argument is that, since we've done way worse things than removing kids from their parents and shipping them around the country for no reason, we can't now complain that taking these kids away is bad?
I've always wondered how people who claim to be Christians can support Trump's policies. Thanks for the demonstration.
WWJD, Virgil.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 22, 2018 18:39:27 GMT -5
It was previously enforced by previous administrations (see SJC report), just not in 100% of cases. The stated rationale for enforcing it fully was because it would ultimately act as a deterrent, which may well be correct. Your supposition that Pres. Trump did it to "create the faux crisis" is simply that: supposition. Speculation. Your best guess, backed up by your gut. You're asking me to chalk up toppling of numerous stable governments, arming of radical militants, and the destruction of literally millions of lives/homes--including hundreds of thousands of children--as the cost of establishing peace and order overseas, but at the same time expecting me to agree with you that 5,000 kids temporarily housed in a migrant detention center while their parents are prosecuted is unconscionable. If this makes sense to you because one is unofficially-maybe-sort-of a war and the other is "just securing the border", perhaps there is some truth to Paul's theory that the American left has gone insane.
So your argument is that, since we've done way worse things than removing kids from their parents and shipping them around the country for no reason, we can't now complain that taking these kids away is bad?
I've always wondered how people who claim to be Christians can support Trump's policies. Thanks for the demonstration.
WWJD, Virgil. Show me where I supported Pres. Trump's policies. What I am is astonished at the consummate ignorance south of the border. If you indeed care about these kinds of atrocities, you picked a fine time to wake up. You've slept through your government perpetrating these kinds of abuses at a hundredfold the scale for decades in the name of order and justice, both at home and abroad. Suddenly it matters to the media (in their vendetta against Pres. Trump), and now you're upset about it. I'm out of here for today. Before I say something I regret.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 23, 2018 8:11:49 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 23, 2018 10:55:55 GMT -5
Caught In A Trap Of His Own Making, Mueller Abandons Prosecution Of Russian Entities...This fuckin' guy...
The Mueller Special Counsel investigation purportedly was instigated to discover possible illicit Russian influence on the 2016 presidential election, but now is backing away from the only indictments aimed at Russian entities, leaving only alleged process crimes (such as General Flynn’s alleged false statement to the FBI) and alleged crimes that occurred long before the Trump candidacy (such as Paul Manafort’s Ukrainian connection).
Devlin Barrett writes in the Washington Post: outline.com/eMM7Kv
Read more: www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/06/facing_humiliation_mueller_backs_away_from_prosecution_of_russian_entities.html#ixzz5JGS8lgLm
Follow us: @americanthinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 23, 2018 10:59:12 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 23, 2018 11:01:44 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 23, 2018 17:24:17 GMT -5
theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/06/23/curious-releases-fbi-provides-initial-compulsory-documents-to-house-oversight-amid-ongoing-impeachment-threats/comment-page-1/#comment-5556765Curious Releases – FBI Provides “Initial” Compulsory Documents To House Oversight Amid Ongoing Impeachment Threats…
Posted on June 23, 2018 by sundance Due to the ongoing and unresolved scale of corruption within the administrative offices of the DOJ (Sessions/Rosenstein) and FBI (Wray/Bowdich), it is no longer possible to provide any benefit-of-doubt regarding their obstruction of oversight. The IG report; the manipulation (red-lining) of the draft content therein; and the subsequent DOJ/FBI willful blindness toward the remaining content; affords no leniency toward motive. In essence, if we are to honestly call the baby ugly, we are also to admit: there is an ongoing and institutional cover-up taking place. Yes, even by Trump officials.
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Post by Opti on Jun 24, 2018 0:21:44 GMT -5
#2499 - What the heck is up with caring and digging up federal employees that don't like Trump. That whole exchange was just whining, some of it not politically aware and all of it totally useless if you really are looking to prove non Trump lovers have hurt Trump somehow through their jobs.
When the heck did most of the GOP decide to join Trump on planet Victim? It seems to be a planet that immediately reduces your IQ by half and makes you incapable of understanding existing laws and anything important. I hope karma gets every one of these idiots who needs to drag other people into the public fray just in hopes of joining Trump's amazing redirection circus. Should I give the idiots kudos? It appears the text "proves" there was no plan against Trump.
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Post by Opti on Jun 24, 2018 0:28:49 GMT -5
And this idiot needs to be flogged and forced to learn how to write. Posted on June 23, 2018 by sundance
Due to the ongoing and unresolved scale of corruption within the administrative offices of the DOJ (Sessions/Rosenstein) and FBI (Wray/Bowdich), it is no longer possible to provide any benefit-of-doubt regarding their obstruction of oversight. The IG report; the manipulation (red-lining) of the draft content therein; and the subsequent DOJ/FBI willful blindness toward the remaining content; affords no leniency toward motive.
Unless he's just phoning it in from India and that's how it translates. The above is a severe example of propaganda. Real reporting would remove editorial comments and flagrant spin, see the bolded. Actually I should probably bold the entire things as there's zero news or useful facts in the entire mess of a sentence. On the other hand, maybe this guy should start submitting his stuff to that horrible sentence writing contest. He should place pretty well.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 24, 2018 20:36:51 GMT -5
However, Trump made a decision to generate a crisis on the border in order to galvanize support from his base. To create the faux crisis, he had DHS enforce a law that was on the books but not previously enforced because previous administrations deemed it too inhumane. Not too inhumane for Trump, however. The definition of ''evil" is to treat kids like stage props in a game to get your Trumpettes excited about the midterms. It was previously enforced by previous administrations (see SJC report), just not in 100% of cases. The stated rationale for enforcing it fully was because it would ultimately act as a deterrent, which may well be correct. Your supposition that Pres. Trump did it to "create the faux crisis" is simply that: supposition. Speculation. Your best guess, backed up by your gut. You're asking me to chalk up toppling of numerous stable governments, arming of radical militants, and the destruction of literally millions of lives/homes--including hundreds of thousands of children--as the cost of establishing peace and order overseas, but at the same time expecting me to agree with you that 5,000 kids temporarily housed in a migrant detention center while their parents are prosecuted is unconscionable. If this makes sense to you because one is unofficially-maybe-sort-of a war and the other is "just securing the border", perhaps there is some truth to Paul's theory that the American left has gone insane.
Also, forgot to link to a source about Trump's motivation to stir up shit about immigration right before the midterm elections:
From Bob Corker (Republican) - Corker said some in the White House want to use immigration as a "force to activate the (Republican) base for elections."
www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/24/bob-corker-trumps-family-separation-policy-done-ready-fire-aim-way/729187002/
Corker isn't the only Republican talking about why Trump keeps fanning the flames of illegal immigration, getting his big buddies at Fox to keep talking about the hordes of Mexican gang members flooding over the border to rape their daughters and kill their wives, despite the statistics that prove immigrants are less likely to engage in criminal activity than home grown thugs.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 25, 2018 9:54:52 GMT -5
Our despicable Governor LePage used the same playbook here in Maine. Here is a quote from him in 2016: “These are guys with the name D-Money, Smoothie, Shifty – these types of guys – they come from Connecticut and New York, they come up here, they sell their heroin, they go back home,” LePage told a large crowd. “Incidentally, half the time they impregnate a young white girl before they leave, which is a real sad thing because then we have another issue we have to deal with down the road.” Nice. He claimed to have a "Dossier" with all of these guys in it.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 25, 2018 11:03:25 GMT -5
I know what I don't like about it, but I'm not a Trump loving friend, so I'll keep my pie hole shut. (Pie eating fingers?)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 26, 2018 18:13:08 GMT -5
Our despicable Governor LePage used the same playbook here in Maine. Here is a quote from him in 2016: “These are guys with the name D-Money, Smoothie, Shifty – these types of guys – they come from Connecticut and New York, they come up here, they sell their heroin, they go back home,” LePage told a large crowd. “Incidentally, half the time they impregnate a young white girl before they leave, which is a real sad thing because then we have another issue we have to deal with down the road.” Nice. He claimed to have a "Dossier" with all of these guys in it. it was a complete 100% ass pull. no wonder him and the POtuS are BFF's.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 27, 2018 7:17:59 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 27, 2018 17:34:20 GMT -5
i, too, entertain this possibility with almost a romantic lust.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 28, 2018 7:14:09 GMT -5
Apparently, Strzok's attorneys had him refusing to answer many questions!!! Holy Crap,, how much are they hiding?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 28, 2018 7:20:36 GMT -5
Who knows. But if Trump's team could have found anything useful and prosecutable, they wouldn't have let him go IMO. Trump hasn't answered any questions yet. Holy Crap, how much is he hiding?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 1, 2018 11:17:39 GMT -5
You mean there were secrets in Clinton's emails??
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2018 15:44:24 GMT -5
I wonder how many secrets are here in Corey's and other emails. (For those who want to discuss Clinton emails until they die, I recommend starting another thread as I have no plan to discuss them here or anywhere if possible.) www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/nyregion/trump-foundation-lawsuit-attorney-general.htmlwww.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/nyregion/trump-foundation-lawsuit-attorney-general.htmlThe lawsuit, filed in State Supreme Court in Manhattan, culminated a nearly two-year investigation of Mr. Trump’s charity, which became a subject of scrutiny during and after the 2016 presidential campaign. While such foundations are supposed to be devoted to charitable activities, the petition asserts that Mr. Trump’s was often improperly used to settle legal claims against his various businesses, even spending $10,000 on a portrait of Mr. Trump that was hung at one of his golf clubs.
The foundation was also used to curry political favor, the lawsuit asserts. During the 2016 race, the foundation became a virtual arm of Mr. Trump’s campaign, email traffic showed, with his campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, directing its expenditures, even though such foundations are explicitly prohibited from political activities.
The attorney general’s office is seeking the Trump Foundation to pay $2.8 million in restitution, the amount raised for the foundation at a 2016 Iowa political fund-raiser.
In 2007, to settle a dispute between the City of Palm Beach and Mr. Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, the foundation paid $100,000 to the Fisher House Foundation, another charity.
In 2012, a man named Martin B. Greenberg sued the Trump National Golf Club after he made a hole in one at a fund-raising golf tournament that had promised to pay $1 million to golfers who aced the 13th hole, as he did. As part of a settlement, the charitable foundation paid $158,000 to a foundation run by Mr. Greenberg.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 2, 2018 7:17:49 GMT -5
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 2, 2018 10:44:47 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 2, 2018 16:27:38 GMT -5
as i said, when a middle aged man is faced with spending half of his remaining time in prison, and the rest in disgrace, it has a tendency to shift his priorities.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 3, 2018 14:38:52 GMT -5
Oh no! One of the conspiracy theories Rush and FOX have been pushing turned out not to be true. How is that possible?
The Congressional IT staffer that the rabid right claimed was the real person (Pakistani person!) who hacked the DNC servers (because obviously, Russia was not involved AT ALL) turns out - not so much.
Awan is pleading to a minor offense unrelated to his work on Capitol Hill - making a false statement on a bank loan application. 18 months of determined digging and untold number of unhinged right wing rants later, and there is no evidence he did anything wrong related to his IT work with the Dems.
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/congressional-it-staffer-reaches-plea-deal-that-debunks-conspiracy-theories-about-illegal-information-access/ar-AAzwIjm
Kind of amazing, when Mueller keeps digging up more shit and arresting more people, that the DOJ couldn't nail this guy for anything more than fudging a loan application?
100% certain the unhinged GOP will call for another 18 month fishing expedition, because their motto is 'it's only a dead horse when we say it's a dead horse.'
So, if Awan didn't hack the DC servers, are we going to have to actually admit the Russians DID hack them? (Quick- find another scapegoat!)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 3, 2018 15:12:15 GMT -5
interesting how Benghazi died a quiet death shortly after November 2016, isn't it? it is a shame that it didn't last until this guy got convicted: that would have been good for a momentary ironic chuckle. oh, and what the fuck is Trey Gowdy, the guy who busted Clinton's balls for 2.5 years resulting in ZERO charges and ZERO convictions, doing pushing Mueller to finish an investigation after only ONE year? that guy is a complete disgrace.
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