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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 12:57:21 GMT -5
You are doing a great job but don't blame you a bit. The info is out there. You might have to go to a variety of sources to get it but it's out there if you have the time to look. Most of us don't which is why your research and perspective has been great.
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engineerdoe
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Post by engineerdoe on Feb 6, 2018 12:58:58 GMT -5
Don't leave. Take a break of a few days if you need.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 6, 2018 13:10:42 GMT -5
It's not that journalist like isikoff are biased, or not telling the whole story. They are part of the conspiracy. Journalist are actively involved in perpetuating the dossier, and the Trump Russia tinfoil hat conspiracy theory as a pretext for a quasi legitimate coup.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Feb 6, 2018 13:15:11 GMT -5
Hundreds of them are already incarcerated at Gitmo.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 6, 2018 13:30:29 GMT -5
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engineerdoe
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Post by engineerdoe on Feb 6, 2018 13:35:33 GMT -5
engineerdoe Republicans didn't pay for any portion of the dossier or Christopher Steele. The Free Beacon paid Fusion GPS for open source research but none of that appeared in the dossier. Christopher Steele was brought on after they stopped funding that research. It's essentially two different projects. I see your point about Western intelligence source. There has been good reporting/question asking over the last year but it hasn't gotten a lot of traction. For example this article from a year ago by an expert in Russia/Economics. I'll give you that your link is "question asking", but it is an opinion piece not reporting and as is typical with opinion pieces, it is definitely skewed to the right. (I also similarly dismiss left leaning opinion pieces.)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 6, 2018 13:45:35 GMT -5
I hope you don't act on those thoughts. I truly appreciate your contributions. There's no way everyone is going to agree on anything but it's always beneficial to have thoughtful presentations, from all sides, to consider.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 6, 2018 16:30:11 GMT -5
I hope you don't act on those thoughts. I truly appreciate your contributions. There's no way everyone is going to agree on anything but it's always beneficial to have thoughtful presentations, from all sides, to consider. I agree with Mmhmm Anne, I hope you stick around.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 6, 2018 16:38:41 GMT -5
Hundreds of them are already incarcerated at Gitmo. My excellent sources tell me trump has ordered his military based in Gitmo to tell the incarcerated journalists there they are free and being returned to the States by unmarked aircraft. Once airborne, and over open waters far from land, the journalists are tied up and pushed out of the planes to plunge to their deaths.
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 6, 2018 18:06:43 GMT -5
I hope you don't act on those thoughts. I truly appreciate your contributions. There's no way everyone is going to agree on anything but it's always beneficial to have thoughtful presentations, from all sides, to consider. I agree with Mmhmm Anne, I hope you stick around. x2 while Anne and I seldom agree I very much appreciate her POV. Without a reasoned point-counterpoint situation how can we have any discussions? I don't have to agree with someone to respect them, and I do respect Anne and her opinions
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 6, 2018 18:08:19 GMT -5
Yes, and Anne often cites her research, which is helpful.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 9:15:16 GMT -5
Just when we think it can't get any worse than it is, we get confirmation of our worst suspicions. This is a level of FUCKED no one could possibly have imagined back when Trump was being ridiculed for his Tweets that he was being spied on by Obama. You can say it isn't "proof" per se, and you would be technically correct. But you'd also be engaging in wishful thinking because it's only a matter of time now before the WHOLE BIG UGLY is exposed: And I don't believe for a second that this modus operandi of the treasonous wanna-be tyrants Democrats is anything new. Hop on in the Wayback Machine with me and let us visit Plamegate: Does anyone besides me recall the role of David Corn and Michael Issakoff in covering for the corrupt FBI and the Democrats even then? Guess who appointed Fitzpatrick? None other than JAMES COMEY. And who was Director of the FBI? Why it was MUELLER. Mueller is a dirty cop- no way he gets away clean. Depending on what the I.G. has already uncovered about Mueller's activities in the year prior to being appointed Special Counsel in violation of the law by dirty cop Rod Rosenstein-- who will be very fortunate if he doesn't end up in federal prison-- Mueller MIGHT be able to play the, "I was duped" card. However, that involved burning Rosenstein-- and who knows what those two have been up to (and Plamegate is a clue). And would it come as any surprise that STRZOK was on the team that knew damn well Plame wasn't covert and that Richard Armitage outed her? This wasn't law enforcement. It was a treasonous mission to TAKE OUT BUSH (or at least- as it turns out- keep him in line. Which they did- did Bush EVER fight back? No. That's the one thing they didn't count on (why, I have zero clue) with Trump) just like they are trying to take out Trump now. Scooter Libby is due a pardon and Mueller should take his place in federal prison. We cannot tolerate ongoing systematic attempts to subvert our Constitutional Republic from within by the UniParty These treasonous criminals need to be SHUT DOWN and shipped to Gitmo where they belong. We need to clean house. Bigly. But I digress. Take a look at this fun: Enjoy prison, Barry.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 7, 2018 9:27:16 GMT -5
Doesn't the text imply he wasn't already aware of what they were doing (as of September 2016, long after all the wrongdoing in setting up surveillance had been wrong-done)?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 7, 2018 9:37:55 GMT -5
I think it’s significant that a FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen and advisor to a presidential campaign was based on opposition research carried out by the opposing political party. The whole reason the FISA court was founded in 1978 was to counter Nixon’s penchant to use federal agencies to spy on political opponents.
Granted, the Nunes memo doesn’t specify that it was the only source used for a surveillance warrant, but the fact that, at least in part, it was is significant.
As I said before, I don’t think it disrupts the Mueller investigation or necessarily vindicates Trump, but at the very least shows negligence on the part of senior FBI and DOJ officials.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 9:40:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words. You might be interested to know that a less redacted version of Grassley's criminal referral of Steele was released today. The FBI made the call on what was redacted in both versions. The updated one is here. It's worth a close read. It lays out the argument that either Steele or the FBI lied in the FISA applications. Grassley has seen the FISA warrants. His letter states that the bulk of the applications were based on Steele's credibility and the dossier. Apparently the FBI put a footnote in their January FISA application renewal that Steele had been fired due to speaking with the press. The FBI also states that since they don't believe the September Isikoff article had anything to do with Steele (they had used it as independent corroboration of his dossier) that he had only spoken to the press after the FISA warrant application in late October. Of course we know that's not true now. There are other interesting items in the letter - the FBI interviewed Bruce Ohr in November of 2016, which means they knew about his contacts with Steele a full year before Ohr was demoted due to the OIG investigation. As a side note - a lot of people are saying that the FBI did disclose that Steele was working for a political organization in the FISA application. It's my understanding that they said he was working for a "political party" in a footnote. To met that's very misleading - a political party could be anyone from Judicial Watch to the DNC to the Tea Party. They did not specifically say it was the DNC and Clinton campaign. I thought that of particular note, Steele's aggressive shopping of the dossier dirt to journalists at all the usual DNC propaganda media outlets was enlightening. And I'm less interested now in whether or not "political bias" was disclosed-- nor even whether or not they mentioned to the FISC that it was bought and paid for by the Hillary Clinton campaign. A FISA court judge knows what "political" means- if he or she didn't ask specific questions, or dismiss it outright, that's on the judge. Of particular note is that the FBI knew Steele was not credible. The FBI was well aware that Steele had lied to them. They were COMPLETELY aware because, IMHO, the FBI was complicit in laundering this political document to make it appear to be an "intel" document. I ask again- Since FBI Agent Bruce Ohr's wife worked for Fusion GPS, why did they need John McCain to be the courier to bring it to the FBI? Answer: they didn't. The FBI was aware the entire time of the dossier, it's origins, and it's complete and total unreliability as evidence. And they were also aware that the "corroborating news story" was sourced by Steele himself and/or his "dossier". Now we know that elements within the Clinton campaign itself were feeding Steele the fantasy dirt. What we're looking at, for you kids who aren't fans of Law & Order, John Grisham, or even Matlock- is called "Racketeering". The Clinton campaign, specifically Sidney Blumenthal, but others as well, and now perhaps elements of the United States Department of State found a foreign agent known to the FBI to be credible who was a foaming at the mouth anti-Trumper and they colluded with him and a cadre of Putin-controlled Russian agents to concoct an "October Surprise" poltical fantasy of fake "dirt on Trump" designed to appear to the public at least to be an intelligence document. The somehow or other got John McCain to send an aid scurrying off to London to retrieve the document (AGAIN REMINDER: this, in spite of the fact that FBI Agent Bruce Ohr's wife worked with Steele on the dossier at Fusion GPS) in order to "launder" it. Look, you're fuckin' idiot if you think ANYONE was EVER supposed to know this was a bought and paid for political document. The purpose of this charade by John McCain was to make the document appear to be independently sourced. It was supposed to be handed over to the FBI by an independent foreign intelligence operative. The later claim that it was "oppo research" is bullshit. This thing was a smear job of the highest order- there weren't supposed to be ANY DNC-- let alone State Department and FBI fingerprints on it. They then colluded with journalists, specifically the reliable inside-media operative Isakoff to do some "reporting" on it and write up a "story" the purpose of which was to provide a "corroborating source". Again, none of this was supposed to EVER come out. So, knowing ALL of this and being totally complicit, agents of the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation then knowingly presented this fake, phony, authored, bought and paid for by Hillary, the DNC, the State Department, and agents of the Russian government pile of shit and presented it to a FISA court judge. At this point, it is immaterial whether or not they advised the judge it was a "political" document or not because the whole thing was one giant scheme and the federal agents that requested the warrant weren't simply aware that it was a political document: THEY WERE IN ON THE WHOLE FUCKING FRAUD. to buy a dossier to frame her opposition. Her own staff, like Blumenthal, made up fake stories and fed them to a foreign spy. And they bought other stories from Russians. Then, even though Steele was in direct contact with the FBI thru Ohr, they got that dupe moron McCain to bring it in, so it would look independent. And they also got Isakoff to write it up, so it would look like a corroborating source. It looks like Obama's state Dept kicked in stories too. These are KGB / Stasi-like police state tactics to take out political enemies. And if we are going to have a country- EVERYONE involved has to pay the HIGHEST PRICE possible. I'm not sure my liberal Democrat friends quite understand that if they get away with this, our way of life is over. Supporters of tyrannical regimes are always the most surprised when THEY suffer, too. We will ALL lose if these treasonous criminals win. Your little celebration, should they skate on this, will not last long. We were 80,000 votes from a total administrative state dictatorship. We have to make certain those involved pay a high enough price that the story is told for generations to scare the shit out of anyone that even thinks this is a good idea.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 9:43:53 GMT -5
Doesn't the text imply he wasn't already aware of what they were doing (as of September 2016, long after all the wrongdoing in setting up surveillance had been wrong-done)? Like I already acknowledged- it's not rock-solid "proof". It's just a piece of the puzzle- and hearsay at that. However, it does indicate that somehow or other Page perceived that President Obama wanted to be kept in the loop. I am certain- like 100%- that if they keep digging, they'll find Obama at the rotten core of the onion. There's no way a sitting President doesn't know about a FISA warrant on the Republican presidential candidate, let alone a warrant on the President-elect.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 9:51:44 GMT -5
I think it’s significant that a FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen and advisor to a presidential campaign was based on opposition research carried out by the opposing political party. The whole reason the FISA court was founded in 1978 was to counter Nixon’s penchant to use federal agencies to spy on political opponents. Granted, the Nunes memo doesn’t specify that it was the only source used for a surveillance warrant, but the fact that, at least in part, it was is significant. As I said before, I don’t think it disrupts the Mueller investigation or necessarily vindicates Trump, but at the very least shows negligence on the part of senior FBI and DOJ officials. I think it is significant that in March 2016 Carter Page is an FBI asset, and in October 2016 he's a spy. And not just any spy- the gravest threat to national security there is-- owned or controlled by a hostile entity / foreign government. The warrant they sought was for TOTAL SURVEILLANCE. And that does matter because if all they had to support that was a one-liner in a dossier-- not merely that they knew to be oppo research, but that they knew full well wasn't reliable. They were aware when they sought the warrant that Christopher Steele had lied to the FBI, and they knew nothing in the dossier had been credibly corroborated. Again, this is because the FBI was in on the scam. They knew through their agent Bruce Ohr about the "dossier". The state department helped write it. The Clinton campaign helped supply dirt. Christopher Steele himself was a foreign agent, and working with agents of the Russian government to concoct a political fantasy which might have been used, according to the testimony of James Comey under oath, "To blackmail Trump" (by the way- I don't think Comey 'revealed the document' to President Trump in service of the President of the United States. I think James Comey THREATENED President Trump with the document and that was the impetus of his firing- you just do NOT fuck with Trump-- as they are all about to find out). It's pretty obvious to me there were never intended to be any Clinton, DNC, let alone State Department fingerprints on this "dossier". That's why they laundered the document through John McCain-- so the document would be viewed as a legitimate intelligence document. "Oppo research" is a cover story because they got caught. Now, we're all going to find out how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 9:54:02 GMT -5
By the way- why are Page and Strzok still at the FBI? Why have they not been questioned yet? Where are their computers, devices, phones-- I mean do you realize these ************s raided Paul Manafort's house and dragged his wife and family out in their pajama's over a suspicion of decades old tax evasion? These are police state tactics-- this is thug, gangster activity within our government. Mueller is dirty, dirty, dirty. He's gotta go down.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 7, 2018 10:13:44 GMT -5
Doesn't the text imply he wasn't already aware of what they were doing (as of September 2016, long after all the wrongdoing in setting up surveillance had been wrong-done)? Like I already acknowledged- it's not rock-solid "proof". It's just a piece of the puzzle- and hearsay at that. However, it does indicate that somehow or other Page perceived that President Obama wanted to be kept in the loop. I am certain- like 100%- that if they keep digging, they'll find Obama at the rotten core of the onion. There's no way a sitting President doesn't know about a FISA warrant on the Republican presidential candidate, let alone a warrant on the President-elect. Even so, why wouldn't "I was aware the FBI was looking into shady Russian connections of a member of Trump's campaign staff. A judge had signed off on the surveillance, and everything was above board." suffice as an explanation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pres. Obama (while President) has never expressly said he wasn't aware such surveillance was taking place. Even if he has, the lie alone won't lead to criminal charges. Let's face it: the only reason we know any of this is because of some careless texting between Mr. Strzok and Ms. Page. Their exchanges--especially the timing of them--provide the fabric that weaves the conspiracy together and establishes a sinister motive. Unless investigators turn up comparably detailed, careless correspondence by Pres. Obama (or anyone, for that matter), guilty or not, they'll still be comfortably situated behind the shield that is plausible deniability.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 7, 2018 10:28:38 GMT -5
Like I already acknowledged- it's not rock-solid "proof". It's just a piece of the puzzle- and hearsay at that. However, it does indicate that somehow or other Page perceived that President Obama wanted to be kept in the loop. I am certain- like 100%- that if they keep digging, they'll find Obama at the rotten core of the onion. There's no way a sitting President doesn't know about a FISA warrant on the Republican presidential candidate, let alone a warrant on the President-elect. Even so, why wouldn't "I was aware the FBI was looking into shady Russian connections of a member of Trump's campaign staff. A judge had signed off on the surveillance, and everything was above board." suffice as an explanation?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pres. Obama (while President) has never expressly said he wasn't aware such surveillance was taking place. Even if he has, the lie alone won't lead to criminal charges. Let's face it: the only reason we know any of this is because of some careless texting between Mr. Strzok and Ms. Page. Their exchanges--especially the timing of them--provide the fabric that weaves the conspiracy together and establishes a sinister motive. Unless investigators turn up comparably detailed, careless correspondence by Pres. Obama (or anyone, for that matter), guilty or not, they'll still be comfortably situated behind the shield that is plausible deniability. Agreed. Obama wanted to be kept in the loop on any findings concerning Russia interfering with the election. That's a reasonable thing to do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 7, 2018 10:33:06 GMT -5
By the way- why are Page and Strzok still at the FBI? Why have they not been questioned yet? Where are their computers, devices, phones-- I mean do you realize these ************s raided Paul Manafort's house and dragged his wife and family out in their pajama's over a suspicion of decades old tax evasion? These are police state tactics-- this is thug, gangster activity within our government. Mueller is dirty, dirty, dirty. He's gotta go down. Did you even read the charges against Manafort? Its not about tax evasion.
www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/a-guide-to-all-of-the-charges-against-manafort-and-gates
COUNT TWO: Conspiracy to Launder Money
Both men are charged with conspiring together and with others to transfer funds from outside the United States to and through places inside the country without properly disclosing the transactions or paying required federal taxes. Penalties for this count include up to 20 years in federal prison and a fine of either $500,000 or twice the monetary value of the property involved in the transaction, whichever is greater.
COUNT TWELVE: False Statements
Prosecutors allege that between November 2016 and February 2017 that Manafort and Gates conspired together and caused others to make false statements and conceal crimes against the United States. The penalty for this count is up to five years in prison.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 7, 2018 10:41:39 GMT -5
Like I already acknowledged- it's not rock-solid "proof". It's just a piece of the puzzle- and hearsay at that. However, it does indicate that somehow or other Page perceived that President Obama wanted to be kept in the loop. I am certain- like 100%- that if they keep digging, they'll find Obama at the rotten core of the onion. There's no way a sitting President doesn't know about a FISA warrant on the Republican presidential candidate, let alone a warrant on the President-elect. Even so, why wouldn't "I was aware the FBI was looking into shady Russian connections of a member of Trump's campaign staff. A judge had signed off on the surveillance, and everything was above board." suffice as an explanation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pres. Obama (while President) has never expressly said he wasn't aware such surveillance was taking place. Even if he has, the lie alone won't lead to criminal charges. Let's face it: the only reason we know any of this is because of some careless texting between Mr. Strzok and Ms. Page. Their exchanges--especially the timing of them--provide the fabric that weaves the conspiracy together and establishes a sinister motive. Unless investigators turn up comparably detailed, careless correspondence by Pres. Obama (or anyone, for that matter), guilty or not, they'll still be comfortably situated behind the shield that is plausible deniability. (No, no, Virgil, you're doing it wrong!!! Shooting squads for Obama and Clinton (both of them)!! Drown all the journalists! Kick all the dems out of the country! Get with the program, dude!)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 7, 2018 11:40:30 GMT -5
But look at what he left out that we know now: - It wasn't an intelligence report. It was opposition research (that went far beyond typical opposition research) compiled and paid for by Fusion GPS and the DNC.
- Isikoff knew at the time it was opposition research - he met with both Steele and Glenn Simpson when he received this info.
- It wasn't a well placed Western intelligence source. Steele was a retired spy, who couldn't work in Russia anymore but was probably still being monitored by their intelligence services. He was a private eye. He also likely didn't write the whole thing. Some of it seems to have been written by the wife of a DOJ official.
But Isikoff's version helped create the mental framework through which people interpreted later information. The public would have taken these reports quite differently had they known the truth. It's funny that this morning his buddy, David Corn, put out a CYA article on Russia-gate. They are writing a book together and both are early leakers of the dossier and named in lawsuits regarding the dossier.
1) sure it was opposition research. when did we NOT know that? we always knew that, annie. 2) right. everyone knew. so what? 3) this is an interesting opinion. however, in the AMERICAN intelligence community, he is well regarded. again, for about the 100th time, which aspects of the dossier have been shown to be false? simple question. no answers yet.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 7, 2018 11:43:14 GMT -5
if this has anything to do with me, what can i do to make your stay here more pleasant? if it does not, then i want to say that i appreciate your well researched, well considered posts. please stay. edit: i bailed from here for two months after the election. so, i get why you would want to do that. but this board needs reasonable voices: voices that see both sides of the issue and can CONSIDER alternate perspectives.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 7, 2018 11:46:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words. You might be interested to know that a less redacted version of Grassley's criminal referral of Steele was released today. The FBI made the call on what was redacted in both versions. The updated one is here. It's worth a close read. It lays out the argument that either Steele or the FBI lied in the FISA applications. again, i would posit that this is not uncommon. the FISA system is deeply flawed. i would also add it is up to the FISA court to determine the quality of the evidence brought before it. in other words, if the quality is not there, it is up to FISA to reject it. those seeking a warrant will bring whatever junk they have to get it. that is a given. everything but the kitchen sink.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 11:47:36 GMT -5
But look at what he left out that we know now: - It wasn't an intelligence report. It was opposition research (that went far beyond typical opposition research) compiled and paid for by Fusion GPS and the DNC.
- Isikoff knew at the time it was opposition research - he met with both Steele and Glenn Simpson when he received this info.
- It wasn't a well placed Western intelligence source. Steele was a retired spy, who couldn't work in Russia anymore but was probably still being monitored by their intelligence services. He was a private eye. He also likely didn't write the whole thing. Some of it seems to have been written by the wife of a DOJ official.
But Isikoff's version helped create the mental framework through which people interpreted later information. The public would have taken these reports quite differently had they known the truth. It's funny that this morning his buddy, David Corn, put out a CYA article on Russia-gate. They are writing a book together and both are early leakers of the dossier and named in lawsuits regarding the dossier.
1) sure it was opposition research. when did we NOT know that? we always knew that, annie. 2) right. everyone knew. so what? 3) this is an interesting opinion. however, in the AMERICAN intelligence community, he is well regarded. again, for about the 100th time, which aspects of the dossier have been shown to be false? simple question. no answers yet. You are flat wrong on all counts. It was NOT presented as a Hillary Clinton bought and paid for document. We certainly didn't know elements of her campaign and even the state department helped author it with the aid of Russian government agents. "Oppo research" was offered as a DEFENSE once we found out where the dossier came from-- and look, this is just a known fact-- look it up yourself. The timeline of the dossier is well documented. It was DISCOVERED to be bought and paid for by the Clinton campaign, and DNC-- and only learned later that FBI Agent Bruce Ohr's wife worked for Fusion GPS, and only VERY recently learned of the involvement of the State Department with foreign agents in concocting this thing. And he WAS well regarded- but the FBI KNEW at the time of the FISA app that Steele was leaking the document all over the place, bragging about his relationship with the FBI, and most importantly: they knew Steele lied about it. They knew it wasn't "newly discovered" by the FBI when John McCain turned it over, and they knew damn well about Strzok and Page-- they were only removed (again-- the pattern) after being CAUGHT.
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 7, 2018 11:51:10 GMT -5
I think it’s significant that a FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen and advisor to a presidential campaign was based on opposition research carried out by the opposing political party. i think it is more common than anyone would like to believe. again, if you want to indict FISA on this, that is fine. but imo what happened here is not that different than what has gone on for DECADES. FISA was not around during Nixon, so it is not a relevant comparison. if it were, Nixon might have been able to do what he did by LEGAL MEANS. i know it sux. i am not arguing FOR FISA. i am saying that the agency used an asset at their disposal, just like they have done for a long time. edit: i would like to make one final comment on this. if contacts with foreign adversaries were committed and detected through these warrants, then it is VERY likely they will stand up, and produce criminal indictments. i hope you understand that, and accept it. this is what FISA is there for, so IF what they got is actionable, they will be able to rightly claim they "did their job". in the end, the evidence is what matters to FISA and the FBI.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 11:58:09 GMT -5
I think it’s significant that a FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen and advisor to a presidential campaign was based on opposition research carried out by the opposing political party. The whole reason the FISA court was founded in 1978 was to counter Nixon’s penchant to use federal agencies to spy on political opponents. Granted, the Nunes memo doesn’t specify that it was the only source used for a surveillance warrant, but the fact that, at least in part, it was is significant. As I said before, I don’t think it disrupts the Mueller investigation or necessarily vindicates Trump, but at the very least shows negligence on the part of senior FBI and DOJ officials. The difference between Nixon and Obama is that during the Nixon administration agents of the federal government obeyed the law and told the President of the United States to get bent. They weren't going to do what he was asking him to do. Imagine that you are confronted with irrefutable evidence that your spouse has been sleeping with every one of your worst enemies for the entirety of your marriage- all of them in your own bed. You discover, through a process of auditing your finances that your spouse has squirreled away a large sum of money and you find a diary detailing your spouse's hatred and contempt for you and their imminent plans to have you murdered by a hitman. When you would trust your spouse again is when I will trust the FBI. The FBI, with its current leadership, is tarnished beyond repair. The entire top brass has to go. I'm told TRex is doing a beaut of a job over at State-- but there are going to have to be MASSIVE, visible high-profile personnel changes within the federal government. There needs to be a purge.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 7, 2018 12:01:21 GMT -5
Even so, why wouldn't "I was aware the FBI was looking into shady Russian connections of a member of Trump's campaign staff. A judge had signed off on the surveillance, and everything was above board." suffice as an explanation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pres. Obama (while President) has never expressly said he wasn't aware such surveillance was taking place. Even if he has, the lie alone won't lead to criminal charges. Let's face it: the only reason we know any of this is because of some careless texting between Mr. Strzok and Ms. Page. Their exchanges--especially the timing of them--provide the fabric that weaves the conspiracy together and establishes a sinister motive. Unless investigators turn up comparably detailed, careless correspondence by Pres. Obama (or anyone, for that matter), guilty or not, they'll still be comfortably situated behind the shield that is plausible deniability. (No, no, Virgil, you're doing it wrong!!! Shooting squads for Obama and Clinton (both of them)!! Drown all the journalists! Kick all the dems out of the country! Get with the program, dude!)
only if you are looking for one. if not, it appears to be a bunch of sour griping by two lovers. sour griping that ensnared democrats, as well. i really resent the cherry picking of those PM's. it paints a VERY slanted picture that is at odds with the reality of Strzok, his job, and what he actually DID during the course of the campaign.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 7, 2018 12:02:15 GMT -5
I think it’s significant that a FISA warrant to spy on an American citizen and advisor to a presidential campaign was based on opposition research carried out by the opposing political party. i think it is more common than anyone would like to believe, and has happened for decades. again, if you want to indict FISA on this, that is fine. but imo what happened here is not that different than what has gone on for DECADES. FISA was not around during Nixon, so it is not a relevant comparison. if it were, Nixon might have been able to do what he did by LEGAL MEANS. i know it sux. i am not arguing FOR FISA. i am saying that the agency used an asset at their disposal, just like they have done for a long time. edit: i would like to make one final comment on this. if contacts with foreign adversaries were committed and detected through these warrants, then it is VERY likely they will stand up, and produce criminal indictments. i hope you understand that, and accept it. this is what FISA is there for, so IF what they got is actionable, they will be able to rightly claim they "did their job". in the end, the evidence is what matters to FISA and the FBI. Wow. How about joining us over here in reality. 1. It is ILLEGAL to appoint a Special Counsel under the law without "articulable evidence a crime has been committed". Fishing expeditions are not permitted which makes Mueller's appointment illegitimate to start with. 2. EVERYTHING uncovered so far by Mueller is "fruit of the poison dossier". Meaning Manafort and Flynn will NEVER see criminal convictions, and will be pardoned if they do.
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