MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 8:36:31 GMT -5
Between a "constructive critique" conversation with boss yesterday and an article I read on LinkedIn this morning, I've been thinking about this. Apparently both parties (boss and article writer) agree that all doubt should be removed from professional conversation. Words/phrases like "hopefully", "unsure", "I don't know", etc. are apparently bad. My approach has always been to be as honest as I can while still remaining professional. I do not like to promise what I am pretty sure I can't deliver, and I do not think highly of people who make those promises to look good while knowing they can't deliver. I usually say something like "I will do my best to achieve X by Y time", but I guess that's not definite enough?
So what do you say when you don't know the answer or if you are pretty sure that you won't be able to do what is being asked of you (because of either time restraints, rules that can't be bent, or that simply you live in the world of Reality)? Is it ever okay to say that you don't know something? Or is it best to pretend you know everything?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 10, 2017 8:38:28 GMT -5
Let me get back to you on that.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 8:44:17 GMT -5
that's not bad. What if you can't do whatever they're asking? See, I have no problem telling people "no" especially if there are circumstances beyond my control that don't make it possible. But I also try to present an alternative so it's more like "I won't be able to do X, but I can definitely do X1. Would that be acceptable?"
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2017 8:54:02 GMT -5
I'd be committing malpractice if I didn't say, "I don't know" when warranted.
I ha e no problem saying I don't know but I can look it up.
If something can't be done I tell them.
Can we close next week? No. Absolutely not.
Can I transfer moms house to me and not pay Medicaid? No. Absolutely not.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 10, 2017 9:06:15 GMT -5
that's not bad. What if you can't do whatever they're asking? See, I have no problem telling people "no" especially if there are circumstances beyond my control that don't make it possible. But I also try to present an alternative so it's more like "I won't be able to do X, but I can definitely do X1. Would that be acceptable?" Offering an alternative solution is always the best way out. It makes you a problem solver.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2017 9:06:38 GMT -5
There instances where I am ethically bound to say no or could lose my job. If I have not been approved for certain levels of animal work or biohazard work it doesn't matter how many times they order me to do it, the answer is no.
I also have no problems with being honest about not being able to do something. If it's something that requires a certain level of expertise I will point them to the person I know is an expert. If it's something there isn't a huge rush on I'll tell them I can't do it but I am happy to learn.
My boss is going to teach me how to edit images for publication. She knows I can't do this but wants me to be able to so she's going to take the time to teach me.
You can't do much with people who expect you to be an expert but refuse to actually train you in anything. The most you might be able to do is seek out others in the company that would be willing to provide you with the training your boss won't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 9:11:21 GMT -5
We are actually trained to reply "I don't know" if we don't know and are reminded of this constantly. We're regulated by the FDA and ITAR regulations and are audited all the time. If an auditor asks us something we don't know and we tell them the wrong answer, we're in a heap more trouble than if we just say we don't know and direct them to someone that does.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 9:21:23 GMT -5
the people who work in areas where there is heavy regulation and laws have to be totally honest about what they can and can't do, and I completely understand that. But why must everything in the private sector be "yes, of course I can do ABC and I know all about XYZ?" I generally see that the people who pretend to know what they are talking about but know nothing are found out pretty quickly.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 10, 2017 9:30:18 GMT -5
There is a difference between mealy answers of uncertainty (maybe, possibly, etc.) and not knowing something which is different than saying no. So, I'm not sure what you are asking.
If you are "pretty sure" that you can get something done in the timeline, say yes, and if it proves to be more complicated, manage that communication later.
If you don't know, show a plan that you are going to go and figure it out. Where are you going to look for the answer? Who are you going to talk to? What information do you need? And give a timeline for when you will be able to answer the question. Obviously you won't know 100% that you can let them know by Thursday, but if that feels like a reasonable expectation, tell them Thursday. If you call them back to say that Joe is out of town until Monday, so you have to push the date, that is okay.
If the answer is that you can't do what they are asking, then you need to offer an alternative. Offer an alternative timeline, or a modified results or some other out of the box thinking.
Always show that you are working towards a result and that there is a reason for a negative answer. Turn any negative into a positive. And answer with authority if you are 90% sure. Sure, you will have to eat crow a few times, but face it head on and own the mistake. "I was mistaken - here are the facts, here is the solution." Or "I ran into some trouble on the timeline, here is my new ETA."
But stay away from maybes and sort-ofs.
I re-read all emails and remove any of those types of words. It doesn't change the message that much. Honestly "maybe Thursday" and "Thursday" binds you to the same timeline. Either way you have to explain why it won't be ready until Monday, but one makes you look like you are confident, and the other makes you look like you are always covering your ass.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 10, 2017 9:37:29 GMT -5
I can't imagine working at a place where you can't be honest and human.
There's a lot I don't know. That's why I'm in grad school. That's why I ask questions from my co-workers. Shoot, just yesterday, I wasn't sure who was supposed to be working on an ongoing project with me. I needed my supervisor to clarify the role of a co-worker once she returns from maternity leave, as she's going part time. The only way I'm going to get this info is if I ask.
Mind-reading/making assumptions is not valued in my workplace.
I don't get dinged for admitting that I don't know something or I can't do it. I get dinged for not doing something about it, whether it's extra learning, problem solving, better communication, or putting in different/more effort.
People who are on the department's shit list land there because they don't effectively problem solve or communicate, which then makes work harder for everyone else.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Oct 10, 2017 9:38:30 GMT -5
We are actually trained to reply "I don't know" if we don't know and are reminded of this constantly. We're regulated by the FDA and ITAR regulations and are audited all the time. If an auditor asks us something we don't know and we tell them the wrong answer, we're in a heap more trouble than if we just say we don't know and direct them to someone that does. Ours is supposed to be "I don't know, but let me get you in touch with a site expert in that area"
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 9:40:32 GMT -5
There is a difference between mealy answers of uncertainty (maybe, possibly, etc.) and not knowing something which is different than saying no. So, I'm not sure what you are asking. If you are "pretty sure" that you can get something done in the timeline, say yes, and if it proves to be more complicated, manage that communication later. If you don't know, show a plan that you are going to go and figure it out. Where are you going to look for the answer? Who are you going to talk to? What information do you need? And give a timeline for when you will be able to answer the question. Obviously you won't know 100% that you can let them know by Thursday, but if that feels like a reasonable expectation, tell them Thursday. If you call them back to say that Joe is out of town until Monday, so you have to push the date, that is okay. If the answer is that you can't do what they are asking, then you need to offer an alternative. Offer an alternative timeline, or a modified results or some other out of the box thinking. Always show that you are working towards a result and that there is a reason for a negative answer. Turn any negative into a positive. And answer with authority if you are 90% sure. Sure, you will have to eat crow a few times, but face it head on and own the mistake. "I was mistaken - here are the facts, here is the solution." Or "I ran into some trouble on the timeline, here is my new ETA." But stay away from maybes and sort-ofs. I re-read all emails and remove any of those types of words. It doesn't change the message that much. Honestly "maybe Thursday" and "Thursday" binds you to the same timeline. Either way you have to explain why it won't be ready until Monday, but one makes you look like you are confident, and the other makes you look like you are always covering your ass. I agree with a lot of that. But someone who keeps pushing deadlines seems to be as unreliable as the person who is unsure. But obviously I'm not in the majority.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Oct 10, 2017 9:42:12 GMT -5
That always reminds me of one time when I was pulled over by a cop. He asked me "Do you know why I pulled you over." Like maybe he was trying to get me to admit to traffic violations, felonies I committed, dead body in the trunk, etc. I said "I don't know" even though I had a pretty good idea. The answer was expired registration. And actually I did register in time but did not have the sticker on my license plate.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 9:42:15 GMT -5
I can't imagine working at a place where you can't be honest and human. There's a lot I don't know. That's why I'm in grad school. That's why I ask questions from my co-workers. Shoot, just yesterday, I wasn't sure who was supposed to be working on an ongoing project with me. I needed my supervisor to clarify the role of a co-worker once she returns from maternity leave, as she's going part time. The only way I'm going to get this info is if I ask. Mind-reading/making assumptions is not valued in my workplace. I don't get dinged for admitting that I don't know something or I can't do it. I get dinged for not doing something about it, whether it's extra learning, problem solving, better communication, or putting in different/more effort. People who are on the department's shit list land there because they don't effectively problem solve or communicate, which then makes work harder for everyone else. yes, I am also having to work around a lot of other people's inability to communicate properly. No one wants to read an email that's more than 5 sentences, but then we have to go back and forth because crucial information was left out of the first email.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 10, 2017 9:44:48 GMT -5
When I can't do something another group wants me to do, I try to put in concrete terms why I can't.
It isn't that I can't do it because I don't want to, it's because I can't get a truck pick up in less than 48 hours, and I can only be sure to get a pick up when scheduling at least a week in advance. Scheduling less than a week in advance, I can only be sure to get a pick up if the hauler hasn't already booked his trucks.
This doesn't help the people who believe I have a magic wand and can pull trucks out of my ass, but I keep repeating it so they at least understand I'm not being willfully unhelpful.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 9:47:42 GMT -5
When I can't do something another group wants me to do, I try to put in concrete terms why I can't.
It isn't that I can't do it because I don't want to, it's because I can't get a truck pick up in less than 48 hours, and I can only be sure to get a pick up when scheduling at least a week in advance. Scheduling less than a week in advance, I can only be sure to get a pick up if the hauler hasn't already booked his trucks.
This doesn't help the people who believe I have a magic wand and can pull trucks out of my ass, but I keep repeating it so they at least understand I'm not being willfully unhelpful.
this is extremely close to what I am experiencing. Someone wants a pickup today but it's already 4:30pm and the facility closes at 6pm. Yeah, no, that's not happening.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 10, 2017 9:49:39 GMT -5
I guess I'm confused as to what we are talking about too. In terms of delivering, dates and times are pretty important in my biz. I give my best time, work like hell to deliver, and then fall on my sword if I fail. I almost always deliver although sometimes I get pushed into "best case scenario ". Timelines and then delivery can be a little painful. I don't know has been more difficult for me as I am rented out as an expert. Previously I felt super bad about it, now I am more confident as the expert I formerly played. My advisor recently asked for my advice on some client issues from his consulting work. I feel if I don't know, it's okay, I usually have one or two pithy perspectives to offer and say I will "look into the literature " How's that for the ultimate cop out. I don't google it. I google scholar it
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2017 9:54:34 GMT -5
When I can't do something another group wants me to do, I try to put in concrete terms why I can't.
It isn't that I can't do it because I don't want to, it's because I can't get a truck pick up in less than 48 hours, and I can only be sure to get a pick up when scheduling at least a week in advance. Scheduling less than a week in advance, I can only be sure to get a pick up if the hauler hasn't already booked his trucks.
This doesn't help the people who believe I have a magic wand and can pull trucks out of my ass, but I keep repeating it so they at least understand I'm not being willfully unhelpful.
this is extremely close to what I am experiencing. Someone wants a pickup today but it's already 4:30pm and the facility closes at 6pm. Yeah, no, that's not happening. In that case I tell them no it's not happening. Facility closes at 6 pm, it is now 4:30 pm you are SOL. I get this x20 because I work with animals and that has it's own set of headaches I cannot control. Someone decides that in 2 weeks they want 25 well reconstituted MALE mice only. I got yelled at because I only had 10 males, but I had 30 females. Sorry I am not God. If you want to be that specific then you need to get off your ass and start planning MONTHS in advance. You just have to learn to grow a really thick skin. That's not to say it doesn't piss me off at times, but I can't let them see me sweat. That's what these people want. I cannot take responsibility for their inability to plan properly.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 9:57:57 GMT -5
this has been helpful. I'll try to weed some of the more wishy-washy language out of my vocabulary.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2017 10:01:57 GMT -5
this has been helpful. I'll try to weed some of the more wishy-washy language out of my vocabulary. It's a learning curve and you will get better with practice . I had a real hard time with it at my first job, my boss actually ordered me to start telling him "no". He said he was old and needed me to be the one to call him out when he did something stupid.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Oct 10, 2017 10:06:39 GMT -5
This is interesting cause I've come across this a lot recently in my job. I've never really given people a day at which something is complete, I usually just say "I'm going to work on this today". I think it's implied that you'll send it when it's complete, so I have never had someone ask me when this will be done.
However lately I have noticed in meetings that people will push for a completion date when the person they are asking has a history of putting things on the backburner.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 10, 2017 10:16:50 GMT -5
There is a difference between mealy answers of uncertainty (maybe, possibly, etc.) and not knowing something which is different than saying no. So, I'm not sure what you are asking. If you are "pretty sure" that you can get something done in the timeline, say yes, and if it proves to be more complicated, manage that communication later. If you don't know, show a plan that you are going to go and figure it out. Where are you going to look for the answer? Who are you going to talk to? What information do you need? And give a timeline for when you will be able to answer the question. Obviously you won't know 100% that you can let them know by Thursday, but if that feels like a reasonable expectation, tell them Thursday. If you call them back to say that Joe is out of town until Monday, so you have to push the date, that is okay. If the answer is that you can't do what they are asking, then you need to offer an alternative. Offer an alternative timeline, or a modified results or some other out of the box thinking. Always show that you are working towards a result and that there is a reason for a negative answer. Turn any negative into a positive. And answer with authority if you are 90% sure. Sure, you will have to eat crow a few times, but face it head on and own the mistake. "I was mistaken - here are the facts, here is the solution." Or "I ran into some trouble on the timeline, here is my new ETA." But stay away from maybes and sort-ofs. I re-read all emails and remove any of those types of words. It doesn't change the message that much. Honestly "maybe Thursday" and "Thursday" binds you to the same timeline. Either way you have to explain why it won't be ready until Monday, but one makes you look like you are confident, and the other makes you look like you are always covering your ass. I agree with a lot of that. But someone who keeps pushing deadlines seems to be as unreliable as the person who is unsure. But obviously I'm not in the majority. True that you don't want to push deadlines continually, that is when you need to make realistic promises, and push back on people who are asking the impossible. You said that people who pretend to be sure all the time are found out quickly. That is not my experience. People who are obnoxious, pushy, don't listen to anyone because they already know all the answers, but are wrong a lot, are fiu d out quickly. But people who listen to input, consider their answers and pony up and make a decision desicively and are right 85% of the time are promoted. If you can't give a solid opinion most of the time, you will be seen as unqualified for your position. Be desicive, be clear and be right.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 10, 2017 10:17:59 GMT -5
Between a "constructive critique" conversation with boss yesterday and an article I read on LinkedIn this morning, I've been thinking about this. Apparently both parties (boss and article writer) agree that all doubt should be removed from professional conversation. Words/phrases like "hopefully", "unsure", "I don't know", etc. are apparently bad. My approach has always been to be as honest as I can while still remaining professional. I do not like to promise what I am pretty sure I can't deliver, and I do not think highly of people who make those promises to look good while knowing they can't deliver. I usually say something like "I will do my best to achieve X by Y time", but I guess that's not definite enough? So what do you say when you don't know the answer or if you are pretty sure that you won't be able to do what is being asked of you (because of either time restraints, rules that can't be bent, or that simply you live in the world of Reality)? Is it ever okay to say that you don't know something? Or is it best to pretend you know everything? Here's the problem with your approach (followed by what I do/would do). Saying "I'll do my best" is basically no different than the people you do not think highly of. It's giving the impression that it's achievable. Even worse, it's giving the impression that the thing itself is achievable, and that the variable factor is essentially your skill level or effort. Also, in a lot of places I've worked "I'll do my best" is code for "this is stupid, I don't want to do it, so this is the response I'll give you up front when I have no intention of putting real effort towards it". It's kind of a cop out...trying to displace the blame for not accomplishing something up front without pointing out the hurdles.
The time constraints, rules, and the fact you live in reality are fairly easy to overcome. You point those things out. Either your own personal capacity isn't large enough to do something, at which point your manager can re-prioritize to free up your time (or you estimate the total time involved and the timelines change, bring in help, etc). If rules can't be bent, bring those rules up. If the issue is simply the entire thing isn't realistic, then bring up your concerns. If you don't know something, admit it...best followed by a timeline in which you'll find out the answer...or again, bring up the hurdles to you getting the answer.
Ultimately, whether someone promises to do something or is totally non-committal...the thing either gets done or it doesn't. Failing while being non-committal really is no different than failing after promising. It didn't get done. "I'll do it" and "I'll do my best" are really no different functionally...the expectation is that you'll get it done. Your non-committal approach might actually be worse...you're acknowledging there are some specific roadblocks, but instead of bringing those up, you're just letting it fail. At least the person who promises might be ignorant to the roadblocks...you're purposely not disclosing them.
Between being the annoying person who always points out that some plans are unrealistic and articulates the hurdles and issues, and being the unemployed person who consistently fails to deliver on expected outcomes...I'd far rather be the former (And I am, that's a huge part of my job, resetting expectations around timelines, feasibility, etc). I've never had a manager (and I've had a lot of them) who have been upset about me bringing up hurdles and challenges that need to be considered...the key is in being proactive about what can be done.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 10:28:21 GMT -5
I like the part about pointing out why something can't be done on a certain deadline and explaining why, along with what IS possible. Will make use of that for sure.
A related point: how do you deal with colleagues who regularly ask for unreasonable things? I'm not talking about piling on work - I'm talking about lots of last minute requests. I do work in an industry where things can change quickly, but there are many instances where there was poor/no back end planning.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2017 10:35:37 GMT -5
If you find you cannot do it all and they want it all done yesterday I find it helpful to tell them "this is what I got going on, this is my plan to get it all done. What are your thoughts?".
The important thing is to have your solution to the problem first. If you just go to your boss complaining about the workload they will think you need your hand held and you want them to babysit. Having a solution shows you are a problem solver, asking for feedback shows you are smart enough to be aware of when you need help.
I've always found bosses to be open to giving feedback. They want me to get my job done in as efficient manner as possible. Whether that be reorganizing the list, pulling someone in to help or deciding to drop something all together.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 10, 2017 10:36:56 GMT -5
When I can't do something another group wants me to do, I try to put in concrete terms why I can't.
It isn't that I can't do it because I don't want to, it's because I can't get a truck pick up in less than 48 hours, and I can only be sure to get a pick up when scheduling at least a week in advance. Scheduling less than a week in advance, I can only be sure to get a pick up if the hauler hasn't already booked his trucks.
This doesn't help the people who believe I have a magic wand and can pull trucks out of my ass, but I keep repeating it so they at least understand I'm not being willfully unhelpful.
this is extremely close to what I am experiencing. Someone wants a pickup today but it's already 4:30pm and the facility closes at 6pm. Yeah, no, that's not happening. This is probably the easiest kind of scenario to handle though. So instead of "I'll do my best to get you a pickup by 6pm" which tells them there's a good chance that it will happen, and if it doesn't happen then it is because your best simply wasn't good enough...you tell them "it takes 48 hours to get a pickup scheduled, and typically they require a full week's notice before the pickup is guaranteed. I'll call them anyways just to see if they have something available at the last minute and I'll call you right back after I've talked to them".
That changes the entire narrative from "my best wasn't good enough" to "you've asked for something unreasonable, but I'll still go above and beyond by calling them and trying to get it done immediately". Simply saying "I'll try my best" doesn't clearly communicate that what they are asking for is unreasonable...in fact...it gives the impression the ask is completely reasonable because if it were not, you would have obviously said something when they asked. So if the request was reasonable, and you didn't deliver...the fault lies in you.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2017 10:42:05 GMT -5
I like the part about pointing out why something can't be done on a certain deadline and explaining why, along with what IS possible. Will make use of that for sure. A related point: how do you deal with colleagues who regularly ask for unreasonable things? I'm not talking about piling on work - I'm talking about lots of last minute requests. I do work in an industry where things can change quickly, but there are many instances where there was poor/no back end planning. I tell them "tough shit" but in a more polite and politically correct manner. In the case of the mice I told them I have 10 males ready to go right now. Unfortunately 2 weeks is not enough time for me to generate the number of males you require. The next batch has X males and I will bleed them on X date, I will notify you of how many reconstituted animals I have at that time. They were still pissed at me but that's why I need to have a thick skin. Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 10, 2017 10:44:16 GMT -5
I often say, "thank you for your input. I will take that under advisement." It means Fuck you.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 10, 2017 10:45:30 GMT -5
I like the part about pointing out why something can't be done on a certain deadline and explaining why, along with what IS possible. Will make use of that for sure. A related point: how do you deal with colleagues who regularly ask for unreasonable things? I'm not talking about piling on work - I'm talking about lots of last minute requests. I do work in an industry where things can change quickly, but there are many instances where there was poor/no back end planning. That depends entirely on how I feel about the colleague, how much of what they're asking me to do is actually my work vs them just needing help, and whether I'm familiar enough with what they're working on to know if it's a last minute thing beyond their control or simply poor planning on their part.
For example, I have a colleague who routinely needs my help because they're not very good at an aspect of their job, but they also tend to be unresponsive to my very simple requests. What they are asking me for isn't really my job to help them with, what I'm asking them for is the entirety of their job. My approach to them is that if I have an outstanding request to them first, I won't answer their request until they've answered mine. That works because my request to them is for a long-term project and I ask for things well in advance...and their requests are usually that the ship is sinking and they need a life preserver.
There are other colleagues who I know are always going to ask for things last-minute because something legitimately fell apart. I'll pretty much respond to those as quickly as possible whether I like them or not because they understand criticality and won't ask me for things immediately when they know it's not an immediate need.
Then there are other people who I inexplicably like, no matter how incompetent they are. I do their stuff quickly because I always assume they're about one-strike away from being fired and I don't want that to happen to them (these tend to be people I don't work closely with, so their incompetence hasn't soured me on them as a person yet). For the people with poor planning, that's actually the best time for the "I don't know" answer. I use that all the time, even for things I clearly know. Sometimes I even have to go to great lengths to explain why I don't know something that pretty much everyone knows that I know...simply so I don't have to take on their problem as mine.
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happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 21,609
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 10, 2017 11:55:07 GMT -5
I like the part about pointing out why something can't be done on a certain deadline and explaining why, along with what IS possible. Will make use of that for sure. A related point: how do you deal with colleagues who regularly ask for unreasonable things? I'm not talking about piling on work - I'm talking about lots of last minute requests. I do work in an industry where things can change quickly, but there are many instances where there was poor/no back end planning. I deal with that ALL the time. Like I said - they think I have a magic wand.
I tell them why I can't get it in the time they want it, and why, and then tell them when I can get it done.
Then I report back to my boss what they wanted and what I said I could do. He understands, but I want to give him a head up in case one of people seeking a miracle complain that I haven't been able to bend the laws of physics.
Boss understands that us not having invented time travel yet prohibit me from doing what they want, and is satisfied when I do the best that I can under the circumstances.
However, it seems we can't go a whole quarter without the exact same people asking yet again why I can't pull a monkey out of my ass, so I have to repeat the story of the laws of physics and lack of time travel at least once a quarter. I'm dealing with a bunch of toddlers with short attention spans and the incessant need to ask 'why.'
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