djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2017 14:13:06 GMT -5
almost all "isms" assert superiority of the proponent against the "other". racial bigotry that does not assert superiority is not racism. in other words, if i say all white people are jackasses, that is not a racist comment, imo, unless one of two things can be shown: a) i think jackasses are superior to non-jackasses (a strange assertion) b) i am not white, and i think jackasses are inferior to non-jackasses. so, to anticipate your next question, many of those statements APPEAR TO BE racist, but one must make certain assumptions to conclude that they, in fact, are. edit: to speak for myself and probably tallguy, i guess you could say "not enough information". however, i am disinclined to judge something prima face without said information, and therefore, forced to judgment based SOLELY on what is there, i would judge those sentences to be "not racist". My definition includes the superiority/inferiority clause as well. Having said this, - The types of prejudice I consider to be bigotry necessarily include a superiority/inferiority clause. "Racial bigotry that does not assert superiority" doesn't exist in my world. Your view apparently differs.
- There are precious few cases where I wouldn't immediately deem a particular distinction/judgment to be superiority-related or not. For example, I believe speakers deem jackasses inferior to non-jackasses in the overwhelming majority of cases the term "jackasses" is used, hence "Whites are jackasses." satisfies the superiority/inferiority clause.
If you haven't read my replies to Tall and Tenn: if, given a case description, you believe a relevant variable (e.g. the actor asserting superiority or not) would be decided a certain way in the "overwhelming majority" (say, 85% or more) of instances, this is a safe and reasonable standard for giving a definite verdict. For example, in case (4), if you believe the overwhelming majority of individuals who'd refuse to take the flag down would do so with the intent of asserting superiority, and the act similarly meets all other criteria, you should answer "Racism."
i am kind of a benefit of the doubt guy. if you would prefer "not enough information" to "NO", go with that. but objectively, if i came across ANY of the statements in the OP, my first reaction would not be "that's racist". it would probably be "that sounds stupid" or something along those lines.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2017 14:13:19 GMT -5
Is it the same or different than prejudice?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2017 14:19:31 GMT -5
Is it the same or different than prejudice? i think it is different. but the words are used similarly, which causes them to be conflated.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2017 14:20:48 GMT -5
Well it's confusing but since the latest insult du jour is "nazi" I'm not sure it matters anymore.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2017 14:23:55 GMT -5
Well it's confusing but since the latest insult du jour is "nazi" I'm not sure it matters anymore. i think it could be safely said that Nazi's are racist, prejudicial and bigoted, so...no contradiction there. use the insult that seems to hurt the most, i guess.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2017 14:26:05 GMT -5
It's going to become as meaningless as racist when it's used to try to insult anyone who doesn't believe the way you do.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2017 14:26:40 GMT -5
That's one word that should never become meaningless
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 26, 2017 19:31:11 GMT -5
My definition includes the superiority/inferiority clause as well. Having said this, - The types of prejudice I consider to be bigotry necessarily include a superiority/inferiority clause. "Racial bigotry that does not assert superiority" doesn't exist in my world. Your view apparently differs.
- There are precious few cases where I wouldn't immediately deem a particular distinction/judgment to be superiority-related or not. For example, I believe speakers deem jackasses inferior to non-jackasses in the overwhelming majority of cases the term "jackasses" is used, hence "Whites are jackasses." satisfies the superiority/inferiority clause.
If you haven't read my replies to Tall and Tenn: if, given a case description, you believe a relevant variable (e.g. the actor asserting superiority or not) would be decided a certain way in the "overwhelming majority" (say, 85% or more) of instances, this is a safe and reasonable standard for giving a definite verdict. For example, in case (4), if you believe the overwhelming majority of individuals who'd refuse to take the flag down would do so with the intent of asserting superiority, and the act similarly meets all other criteria, you should answer "Racism."
i am kind of a benefit of the doubt guy. if you would prefer "not enough information" to "NO", go with that. but objectively, if i came across ANY of the statements in the OP, my first reaction would not be "that's racist". it would probably be "that sounds stupid" or something along those lines. No, if you legitimately require more information in all 20 cases, then 20 "Not Enough Information" verdicts is appropriate.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2017 20:20:45 GMT -5
i am kind of a benefit of the doubt guy. if you would prefer "not enough information" to "NO", go with that. but objectively, if i came across ANY of the statements in the OP, my first reaction would not be "that's racist". it would probably be "that sounds stupid" or something along those lines. No, if you legitimately require more information in all 20 cases, then 20 "Not Enough Information" verdicts is appropriate. i have said a lot of dumb things in my life. sometimes in sarcasm, sometimes in ignorance. being tried in absentia, without the benefit of defending myself against accusations against me is not a fate i would wish on anyone.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 27, 2017 10:31:15 GMT -5
No, if you legitimately require more information in all 20 cases, then 20 "Not Enough Information" verdicts is appropriate. i have said a lot of dumb things in my life. sometimes in sarcasm, sometimes in ignorance. being tried in absentia, without the benefit of defending myself against accusations against me is not a fate i would wish on anyone. I understand and respect this, but we're trying fictional individuals here as part of a thought exercise. Part of the exercise is determining our individual beliefs about which inferences are important and which ones are reasonable. In any case, I'm putting you down as "Not Enough Information" for all 20 cases.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 27, 2017 10:46:21 GMT -5
OK. I've collected data for 10 people thus far: Billis Virgil Virgil's Mom Shooby Green Eyed Lady Spellbound mmhmm Tennesseer DJ Tall I'd like to get it up to 15 or more before putting it in a table. zibazinski - We need your perspective. Fill it out and I'll give you a cookie badge. midjd - You seem to have committed a great deal of thought to the topic. I'd love to get your responses too. @jma23 - I see you hiding in the corner over there. Come on. Help a guy out. Shooby - If you wouldn't mind providing verdicts for the last 7 questions. I've only got up to case (13) from you. General invites also go out to Peace Of Mind, @richardintn, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, chiver78, Gardening Grandma, Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger: You're helpful souls who aren't afraid to voice your opinion. Getting your verdicts on the cases will help round out the table. My thanks in advance.
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 27, 2017 10:50:01 GMT -5
Huh? What is the question? I haven't followed this thread and don't have time to read 4 pages.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 27, 2017 10:54:08 GMT -5
Huh? What is the question? I haven't followed this thread and don't have time to read 4 pages. There are 20 hypothetical cases presented in the OP, and for each one I'm looking for a verdict of "Racism.", "Not racism.", or "Not enough information." from as many posters as are willing. There are no right answers, but ordinarily I'll ask questions afterward for clarification and to resolve potential contradictions. Some respondents have included explanations for their answers, while others haven't.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 27, 2017 12:00:46 GMT -5
OK. I've collected data for 10 people thus far: Billis Virgil Virgil's Mom Shooby Green Eyed Lady Spellbound mmhmm Tennesseer DJ Tall I'd like to get it up to 15 or more before putting it in a table. zibazinski - We need your perspective. Fill it out and I'll give you a cookie badge. midjd - You seem to have committed a great deal of thought to the topic. I'd love to get your responses too. @jma23 - I see you hiding in the corner over there. Come on. Help a guy out. Shooby - If you wouldn't mind providing verdicts for the last 7 questions. I've only got up to case (13) from you. General invites also go out to Peace Of Mind, @richardintn, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, chiver78, Gardening Grandma, Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger: You're helpful souls who aren't afraid to voice your opinion. Getting your verdicts on the cases will help round out the table. My thanks in advance. Eh, no thank you. I appreciate the invitation.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 27, 2017 12:29:51 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion-which numbered post was your own reply to the questions. If it is mixed in as an inline response to someone else's replies, I get confused with all the colored print so I am not/did not see it.
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Aug 27, 2017 14:31:30 GMT -5
Virgil, thank you for the invite but I'll just say I read a lot of discrimination, ignorance, and stupidity with a dash of full out racism in most of those statements. I had a long list of answers but had more questions and it just got complicated. Ha! That's my answer to all of them: It's complicated. Do I get a Gold Star now?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 27, 2017 16:56:42 GMT -5
Too many of the hypotheticals lack enough context:
Ex No 1. Is Bob Asian? It makes a difference.
Ex. No 9. I say, "No, not racism if he refuses to hire other Asians because they aren't Korean, BUT he is definitely biased. Does he live in Korea and is the language an issue? If so, not even biased, just pragmatic. Does he live in the US and do all rhe applicants speak English.
No 14 Common decency wiuld make anyone stop hanging out with a white supremist.
Most of the others cannot be addressed with a simple yes or no. A number of them I'd say "ignorant" rather than "racist"
As POM said, "it's complicated"
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 27, 2017 17:22:39 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion -which numbered post was your own reply to the questions. If it is mixed in as an inline response to someone else's replies, I get confused with all the colored print so I am not/did not see it. I haven't posted my own verdicts. I'll just include them in the table when I publish it. Virgil, thank you for the invite but I'll just say I read a lot of discrimination, ignorance, and stupidity with a dash of full out racism in most of those statements. I had a long list of answers but had more questions and it just got complicated. Ha! That's my answer to all of them: It's complicated. Do I get a Gold Star now? I designed them all to be "complicated"--borderline, thought-provoking. I wanted cases that would force people to deeply examine the criteria they use. A case such as "Joe, a white man, murders Jim, a black man, because Joe abhors blacks." need not apply. Having said this, I don't want to pressure you into giving something you're not comfortable giving. Thank you all the same for the attempt. Too many of the hypotheticals lack enough context: Ex No 1. Is Bob Asian? It makes a difference. Ex. No 9. I say, "No, not racism if he refuses to hire other Asians because they aren't Korean, BUT he is definitely biased. Does he live in Korea and is the language an issue? If so, not even biased, just pragmatic. Does he live in the US and do all rhe applicants speak English. No 14 Common decency wiuld make anyone stop hanging out with a white supremist. Most of the others cannot be addressed with a simple yes or no. A number of them I'd say "ignorant" rather than "racist" As POM said, "it's complicated" Understood.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 27, 2017 17:26:23 GMT -5
OK. I've collected data for 10 people thus far: Billis Virgil Virgil's Mom Shooby Green Eyed Lady Spellbound mmhmm Tennesseer DJ Tall I'd like to get it up to 15 or more before putting it in a table. zibazinski - We need your perspective. Fill it out and I'll give you a cookie badge. midjd - You seem to have committed a great deal of thought to the topic. I'd love to get your responses too. @jma23 - I see you hiding in the corner over there. Come on. Help a guy out. Shooby - If you wouldn't mind providing verdicts for the last 7 questions. I've only got up to case (13) from you. General invites also go out to Peace Of Mind , @richardintn , AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP , chiver78 , Gardening Grandma , Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger : You're helpful souls who aren't afraid to voice your opinion. Getting your verdicts on the cases will help round out the table. My thanks in advance. Eh, no thank you. I appreciate the invitation. You don't have the time? You don't want your verdicts judged? You've been an active participant in the thread since it started.
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 27, 2017 17:31:22 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion -will our individual opinions be noted in your table? And I image for the sake of brevity our replies will be reduced to 'Yes', 'No', 'And need more information ' or something similar?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 27, 2017 18:08:04 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion -will our individual opinions be noted in your table? And I image for the sake of brevity our replies will be reduced to 'Yes', 'No', 'And need more information ' or something similar? I plan to make the table n rows by 20 columns, where n is the number of respondents. Each row will contain the data for one respondent. The cells will be square and colour-coded: filled in for "Yes", empty for "No", and hashed for "Need More Information". Obviously, I'll also label the rows and columns, and provide a legend. The Proboards editor supports enough HTML/CSS features that I should be able to do the whole thing as an HTML table, without graphics.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 18:50:25 GMT -5
O.k. ... what the hell... why not... Which of the following behaviours constitute racism? - At a dinner party, Bob claims "Asians are smarter than whites," citing a 2008 Swedish study on general intelligence that includes statistics categorized by race.
- Jill, a white woman who was once assaulted by a black man, crosses the street whenever she sees a large black man approaching on her side of the sidewalk.
- Mary declares at a political rally, "Most white cops--nearly all of them--are racist."
- Joe keeps a Confederate flag--a keepsake from his childhood--in his bedroom window. He refuses to take it down even after several people insist it's a symbol of racism and makes them uncomfortable.
- Holly claims she would never marry a black man because she finds them loud and unattractive.
- Jim asks Lo, a newcomer to his town of obviously Asian descent, "Are you from China?"
- Peter, a white man, is a firm believer in Affirmative Action and racial quotas. "Black communities need a leg up to compensate for other systemic inequalities," he claims.
- Donna argues online, "All lives matter. White privilege is just and excuse made up by black people."
- Les, a Korean man, refuses to hire anyone except Koreans to work in his shop.
- Kim, a deeply religious woman, disapproves of interracial marriages, sincerely believing that God intended the races be kept separate and distinct.
- Roy, an ethnic Jew, maintains a site "sonsofishmael.com" documenting atrocities committed by Arabs and defending a thesis that Arabs are a violent and factious people by nature.
- Maude, a black professor of sociology, pens an op ed asking readers to eschew citing the research of white sociologists, arguing their research is inherently biased and instrumental in the perpetuation of dangerous stereotypes.
- Neil, an Asian man, is an outspoken proponent of racial profiling for police work, believing that profiling makes policing smarter and more effective.
- John, a man indifferent to race, refuses to stop hanging out with Ellis, his childhood friend and an outspoken white supremacist, simply because of his beliefs on race.
- Gary, a black TV entertainer, frequently pokes fun at whites, mocking their dancing and driving abilities in particular.
- Kate, a white woman, and her friend Katelyn, a black woman, agree in a discussion that "there's a difference between blacks and (N word)s".
- James categorically refuses to hire another aboriginal man after his previous two aboriginal employees suffered problems with alcohol abuse.
- Jeanine, a full-time volunteer for a NGO in the Black Lives Matter movement, argues on her blog that modest taxes should be levied on white Americans to fund a reparations package intended to compensate "people of colour" from past injustices such as slavery.
- Ellie, a white New Englander, reflexively calls white debate opponents racist and bigoted when she perceives she's losing an argument.
- Joseph, a Texan, sincerely believes the influx of Mexican migrants to the US is a threat to the stability and prosperity of the nation.
As a special request from me: if posters wouldn't mind making this thread about issues and ideas rather than specific people, I'd appreciate it. What does racism mean to you? - Not racist if backed up by actual statistically provable facts
- It's not racist if it's an instinctual reaction triggered by actual experiences on numerous occasions. As there was only ONE attack (per this: "was once assaulted"), however, this would be racist.
- Absolutely racist... UNLESS she has facts to back up her claim.
- Not racist. He probably knows the true meaning of the flag and the people that have a problem with it obviously don't.
- Not racist. People are attracted to whom they are attracted to.
- Not racist. China has the largest population of Asians in the world. Odds are that he'd be right more often than not. I wouldn't personally phrase the origin question that way though.
- Not racist... just a moron that bought into the hype.
- Not racist. (I'm assuming you made a typo here: "White privilege is just and excuse"... I'm assuming you meant "an" there).
- Racist... unless it's a 100% Korean themed business (like a restaurant)
- Not racist... religious (and stupid).
- Racist (but only because his premise is that they are how they are "by nature". "Nature" doesn't make anyone bad... that would be "nurture").
- Likely racist (but would need to know more about her sources for her conclusion).
- Depends on what he considers "profiling". If it's backed by verifiable factual statistics... then he's right. It is good policing. If it's backed by "I hate ni**ers" then it's racist)
- Doesn't make him a racist or not a racist. Friends come and go, and all of them have flaws. Some can be accepted, others can't be.
- Only racist if he doesn't do the same for other races... including his own.
- Not racist... because there actually is a difference. "(N-word)s" can be of any race. Being a "(n-word)" is about an "I'm special so the world owes me" attitude.
- Not racist. Two begins a pattern... especially if he's only had two and both did the same bad thing. That's 100%.
- Not racist... just ignorant.
- Not enough information.
- Not racist. Too many immigrants CAN destabilize an area (especially if they don't convert to local customs... like language), and most immigrants in Texas come from Mexico, so those would be the ones he sees and has experience with.
Racism means treating people of a particular race (or all people of every race other than one's own) differently, AND lesser, solely based on their being that race (or not being one's own race).
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 27, 2017 18:53:38 GMT -5
OK. I've collected data for 10 people thus far: Billis Virgil Virgil's Mom Shooby Green Eyed Lady Spellbound mmhmm Tennesseer DJ Tall I'd like to get it up to 15 or more before putting it in a table. zibazinski - We need your perspective. Fill it out and I'll give you a cookie badge. midjd - You seem to have committed a great deal of thought to the topic. I'd love to get your responses too. @jma23 - I see you hiding in the corner over there. Come on. Help a guy out. Shooby - If you wouldn't mind providing verdicts for the last 7 questions. I've only got up to case (13) from you. General invites also go out to Peace Of Mind , @richardintn , AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP , chiver78 , Gardening Grandma , Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger : You're helpful souls who aren't afraid to voice your opinion. Getting your verdicts on the cases will help round out the table. My thanks in advance. Eh, no thank you. I appreciate the invitation. I have no desire to be included in your social experiment. thanks.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 27, 2017 19:32:27 GMT -5
Eh, no thank you. I appreciate the invitation. You don't have the time? You don't want your verdicts judged? You've been an active participant in the thread since it started. I honestly don't care. Everyone is racist or prejudiced or whatever the latest insult is. No one is without issues. It's constant bitching that gets old. The Orange dwerp vs the former whatever you want to call him. It really doesn't matter to either of them how much they're hated or why. Its a bore
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 28, 2017 9:26:48 GMT -5
What is Racism? It used to have meaning. Now, it really doesn't. It just means anyone who opposes the old failed corrupt political orthodoxy. Seriously- that's what it means now. It has no other serious cultural or contextual meaning. Like liberalism-- it has been completely redefined by political propagandists. Racism is " The Big Lie". It is the slur of a morally bankrupt, and intellectually vacant, failed, and corrupt political establishment that has lost the argument, and is attempting to equate everything that patriotic Americans want- including patriotism itself- with an unspeakable evil. And it's not going to work. Remember what President Trump used to do? For like Decades? His project is MAGA, and we are in the demolition phase. Racism? It used to actually mean something. Now it is a word without weight. It has no meaning. It holds no power. It's " The Big Lie". And Mr. Trump is, after decades of non-response to the slander and defamation of people are a near supernatural combination of evil and stupid, neutralizing and dismantling " The Big Lie"- not just their weapon of choice, but their only weapon. ZERO ideas. ZERO to contribute. A legacy of FAILURE and CORRUPTION. So they call their own fellow citizens horrific names in a desperate and disgusting attempt to voter-shame Trump supporters and cling to political power for its own sake.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 28, 2017 10:01:10 GMT -5
What is Racism? It used to have meaning. Now, it really doesn't. It just means anyone who opposes the old failed corrupt political orthodoxy. Seriously- that's what it means now. It has no other serious cultural or contextual meaning. Like liberalism-- it has been completely redefined by political propagandists. Racism is " The Big Lie". It is the slur of a morally bankrupt, and intellectually vacant, failed, and corrupt political establishment that has lost the argument, and is attempting to equate everything that patriotic Americans want- including patriotism itself- with an unspeakable evil. And it's not going to work. Remember what President Trump used to do? For like Decades? His project is MAGA, and we are in the demolition phase. Racism? It used to actually mean something. Now it is a word without weight. It has no meaning. It holds no power. It's " The Big Lie". And Mr. Trump is, after decades of non-response to the slander and defamation of people are a near supernatural combination of evil and stupid, neutralizing and dismantling " The Big Lie"- not just their weapon of choice, but their only weapon. ZERO ideas. ZERO to contribute. A legacy of FAILURE and CORRUPTION. So they call their own fellow citizens horrific names in a desperate and disgusting attempt to voter-shame Trump supporters and cling to political power for its own sake. The main intent of this thread is to get a handle on what real people (e.g. you and me) think racism is, not what various movements and philosophies say about it. To this end, I'm asking respondents to label each of the 20 cases in the OP as "Racism.", "Not racism.", or "Not enough information." There are no right answers. The answers should reflect what you mean when you call somebody or something "racist". Thus far, respondents seem fairly reserved in what they'll label "racism". I suspect this is because the more unreserved posters are offended by the survey and don't want to fill it out, but this can't be helped. In any case, I'd appreciate your responses to the survey.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 28, 2017 11:05:21 GMT -5
so do you only want certain people to answer you, or....?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 28, 2017 11:12:18 GMT -5
so do you only want certain people to answer you, or....? No. I invite everybody to answer. The more answers we get, the richer the data set. The specific invitations above were for posters that commented in the thread, or who I knew wouldn't mind being asked.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 29, 2017 10:08:47 GMT -5
What is Racism? It used to have meaning. Now, it really doesn't. It just means anyone who opposes the old failed corrupt political orthodoxy. Seriously- that's what it means now. It has no other serious cultural or contextual meaning. Like liberalism-- it has been completely redefined by political propagandists. aka "your team" edit: one of my friends suggested that we stop calling racists racists, and call them "white-privelage-ists", because that is pretty much what they are. they like having the advantage, and they hate giving it up. they hate it so much that they will go buy some stupid uniforms, pack up their guns, and drive for a day to intimidate leftists, at certain risk to themselves, their jobs, and their reputations.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 12:22:45 GMT -5
OK. I've collected data for 10 people thus far: Billis Virgil Virgil's Mom Shooby Green Eyed Lady Spellbound mmhmm Tennesseer DJ Tall I'd like to get it up to 15 or more before putting it in a table. zibazinski - We need your perspective. Fill it out and I'll give you a cookie badge. midjd - You seem to have committed a great deal of thought to the topic. I'd love to get your responses too. @jma23 - I see you hiding in the corner over there. Come on. Help a guy out. Shooby - If you wouldn't mind providing verdicts for the last 7 questions. I've only got up to case (13) from you. General invites also go out to Peace Of Mind , @richardintn , AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP , chiver78 , Gardening Grandma , Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger : You're helpful souls who aren't afraid to voice your opinion. Getting your verdicts on the cases will help round out the table. My thanks in advance. Here goes as I interpret your questions. Not racist; 4, 6, 7, 14, and 20. Not really sure on #20, as illegal vs legal is important to the question as posed, as far as an economic effect would be considered.
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