reasonfreedom
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 8:50:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,722
|
Post by reasonfreedom on Mar 23, 2011 12:23:02 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 23, 2011 13:58:13 GMT -5
Took you this long to come to that conclusion? LOL
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 23, 2011 14:00:48 GMT -5
SF beat me to it. Couple sixty years late to the party there. Welcome anyway- there's some beer left. Check the oven for some leftover pizza.
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 23, 2011 14:11:07 GMT -5
The reality is you have just under 200 independent countries in this organization, from the most powerful, us, to the weakest, some small principality, island group, and all have their own agendas. Thus , were some are criticizing and finding fault, in this case that it happened so fast, the UN agreement to take action, and 28 States participating in, and the abstention of other major powers from throwing a veto, to allow the positive vote for involvement is remarkable . Even with the abstentions, the four major countries who abstained have different reasons for not voting for the action of the UN, not the same as each other. So just to criticize," UN is a joke", it's not true, they do some great work around the world, and yes as all large such groups, and country's, there are faults, just look at us , so many problems and faults, just read the posts here by the posters here. In the case of the UN, they do some very great work and overall at little real cost when you consider total monetary budgets, just look at the $ expended on arms alone in the World. By the way, as of now, just reported on CNN, they feel that the air war, the no fly zone, is a success, yet the final solution will be up to the Libyans them selves. The "No Fly Zone " has been extended, not just Benghazi and that area but from tip to tip of the country, ton Tripoli and beyond, and only the most southern area of the country, that bordering on greater Africa itself seems not to ne covered, though I am sure under observation, and I expect to see more attacks on Gaddafi's forces in the field. Supposedly some arms are getting to the insurgents from Arab countries, Egypt io particulerly, , not absolutely sure about that, but I am wondering if Gaddafi's forces in the field, are attacked by the coalition, if the forces , which so many are mercenary and the commanders of those units , will not start abandoning Qaddafi and move away from him. Supposedly there are 200 planes now taking part, and in todays air forces, these , air op planes capabilities with both dumb and smart munitions , that is a formidable force and I am sure that in some cases there might be special forces on the ground giving support to those planes flying over head, even though we might not hear about their participation or any comments as to their participation. They do not have to be our forces on the ground, the French, UK have very capable forces , as one here pointed out, the French Foreign legion, the SAS of the UK are quite capable , very much so.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 23, 2011 15:41:15 GMT -5
The U.N. is like an Olympic Medal Round Table that includes everyone in an effort to ignore the fact that some countries WIN, and some countries LOSE. It's an effort to pretend there is no podium atop which sits the United States. It's an effort at moral equivalence- pretending morally inferior failed states have an equal say in things. Of course, it's founders sure wish it were true- but it's really nothing but a cruel joke on the losers.
|
|
reasonfreedom
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 8:50:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,722
|
Post by reasonfreedom on Mar 23, 2011 16:30:51 GMT -5
"So just to criticize," UN is a joke", it's not true, they do some great work around the world, and yes as all large such groups, and country's, there are faults, just look at us , so many problems and faults, just read the posts here by the posters here.
In the case of the UN, they do some very great work and overall at little real cost when you consider total monetary budgets, just look at the $ expended on arms alone in the World."
Do you have any proof or is this just you opinion without any representation?
|
|
The Virginian
Senior Member
"Formal education makes you a living, self education makes you a fortune."
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 18:05:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,629
Today's Mood: Cautiously Optimistic
Location: Somewhere between Virginia & Florida !
Favorite Drink: Something Wet & Cold
|
Post by The Virginian on Mar 23, 2011 16:36:58 GMT -5
Really - Wow - You really believe that?? Next you'll be saying NATO is a viable organization!!!
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 23, 2011 16:58:12 GMT -5
"So just to criticize," UN is a joke", it's not true, they do some great work around the world, and yes as all large such groups, and country's, there are faults, just look at us , so many problems and faults, just read the posts here by the posters here. In the case of the UN, they do some very great work and overall at little real cost when you consider total monetary budgets, just look at the $ expended on arms alone in the World." Do you have any proof or is this just you opinion without any representation? It is a fact. Just use the google , see how many agencies under their auspices, everything from education of, clean water, all types of Health initiatives in parts of the world where a aspirin is considered a miracle drug, peace keeping, with out there would be more deaths, killings then there are now, and on and on. I'll stand by my post, just google and see if I am not correct. It's not just cocktail parties, diplomatic immunity for parking tickets in NYC.
|
|
reasonfreedom
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 8:50:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,722
|
Post by reasonfreedom on Mar 23, 2011 17:55:23 GMT -5
"So just to criticize," UN is a joke", it's not true, they do some great work around the world, and yes as all large such groups, and country's, there are faults, just look at us , so many problems and faults, just read the posts here by the posters here. In the case of the UN, they do some very great work and overall at little real cost when you consider total monetary budgets, just look at the $ expended on arms alone in the World." Do you have any proof or is this just you opinion without any representation? It is a fact. Just use the google , see how many agencies under their auspices, everything from education of, clean water, all types of Health initiatives in parts of the world where a aspirin is considered a miracle drug, peace keeping, with out there would be more deaths, killings then there are now, and on and on. I'll stand by my post, just google and see if I am not correct. It's not just cocktail parties, diplomatic immunity for parking tickets in NYC. I still don't see the point of the U.N., all of the things you listed were being done prior to the U.N. and can be done with out the U.N.. The U.N. is just one more thing that countries have to fund instead of spending that money on their own programs to make them more efficient.
|
|
|
Post by ed1066 on Mar 23, 2011 23:30:28 GMT -5
TOP 10 U.N. SLOGANS
10. If an impotent, bloated Bureaucracy can't solve it, then it's best left festering
9. You can't spell "UNETHICAL" without UN
8. Genocidal Dictators, beware our non-binding resolutions
7. Bringing peace to our world (actual results may vary)
6. Tomorrow's corruption today
5. Raising pointless squabbling to an art form
4. We take bribes so you don't have to
3. Try our world famous cheesy fries
2. If troubles abound, we'll be nearby doing nothing
1. If this is an actual emergency, please hang up and dial America
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 23, 2011 23:39:09 GMT -5
It is a fact. Just use the google , see how many agencies under their auspices, everything from education of, clean water, all types of Health initiatives in parts of the world where a aspirin is considered a miracle drug, peace keeping, with out there would be more deaths, killings then there are now, and on and on. I'll stand by my post, just google and see if I am not correct. It's not just cocktail parties, diplomatic immunity for parking tickets in NYC. I still don't see the point of the U.N., all of the things you listed were being done prior to the U.N. and can be done with out the U.N.. The U.N. is just one more thing that countries have to fund instead of spending that money on their own programs to make them more efficient. Don't think so , it was at the whim of nations and their own finances and also were the countrys who needed this help friendly with the county who gave the aid. Peace keeping , never done except to put the one putting forces into the country was fulfilling it's own agenda and how does one stay neutral.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Mar 23, 2011 23:41:17 GMT -5
I think the World just passed the UN by....or they suffer from bureaucratic bloating which is worse than a bad gas of intestinal gas..
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 24, 2011 0:09:19 GMT -5
I don't agree, and those who are on the end of the different program they sponser I am sure would also disagree with you. Whether disease irradication, , peace keeping, keeping people alive, health improvements, simple power to villages. I put up one , article, just a week ago. A Vietnamese village in the hills, boonies, , by working with UN, got a small electric generator, hydro electric, enough for their village and the difference it is making in the villagers lives. A little thing, we who have lights burning all over, but so important for the 200 hundred in the village. Children studying at night, light industry so they can produce more, communications, TV, radio, one now saving for a refrigerator.
Some one said that it could be done by others, it wasn't , but the UN did it.
To just ridicule with out any real thought to a topic, really have a hard time understanding that. Just more wise ass remarks.
|
|
reasonfreedom
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 8:50:21 GMT -5
Posts: 1,722
|
Post by reasonfreedom on Mar 24, 2011 7:12:03 GMT -5
Hydro electric is not a new concept and aiding 3rd world countries is not a new concept either. I am curious to where the money came from to fund this though, did it say in your article? I have worked for a non-profit organization that does similar work, so it is not U.N. unique. Like I said before it has been done before, unless you want to get down to a superficial philosophy of everything being unique.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Mar 24, 2011 7:56:55 GMT -5
However as an institution it certainly has value to it's members.
Then make your case Demi...go for it
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 24, 2011 15:54:14 GMT -5
Hydro electric is not a new concept and aiding 3rd world countries is not a new concept either. I am curious to where the money came from to fund this though, did it say in your article? I have worked for a non-profit organization that does similar work, so it is not U.N. unique. Like I said before it has been done before, unless you want to get down to a superficial philosophy of everything being unique. This particuler hydro electic was not a large dam thrown up some where, a small village thing, their labor, their little stream, the UN over seeing and special small generator. Actually a little story, wil l will try to find it. Of course nations could have also heled the village, but they didn't, the UN did. as they are helping out in little ways as we post back and forth right now. My mistake, Laos, not Nam, though same thing happening there, in the North, other links I found , but the one I was referring to was in Laos, see link, hope the mix up in countries won't bother you. ----------------------------------------------------------------- www.undplao.org/newsroom/Microhydropower_story.php------------------------------------------------------- cro hydro power helps achieve sustainable livelihoods among minority community "In remote Houay Ngou village, northern Lao, 48 year old Keupkku is settling down to the evening news on his new color Television. At the other side of the room two of his daughters turn on the lights to continue their studies. Just a month ago this would not have been possible. But a newly installed 7.5kW hydro power turbine now supplies electricity to the Hmong ethnic community of 290 people. “Thanks to the electricity from the micro hydro power, my daughters can now enjoy studying late at night,” said Keupkku. These benefits are a result of the villager's initiative in proposing the construction of the micro hydro power system to the Sayaboury provincial authorities. After securing funding from the Global Environment Facility Small Grants Programme (GEF SGP), implemented by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the villagers voluntarily participated in constructing the small water catchment area, installing the pipes and transporting the building materials. According to Bruno Cammaert, head of the UNDP Environment Programme in Lao PDR, the villagers are responsible for, “helping themselves to organize and complete the project.” The GEF Small Grants Programme directly supports community-level initiatives for environmental protection and sustainable rural development. " -------------------------------------------------- [Click on link to read rest of article]
|
|
|
Post by ed1066 on Mar 24, 2011 16:16:13 GMT -5
When one joins the Democratic Party, does one have to sign some kind of oath that you will support inane liberal schemes like the UN, NPR, the ACLU and the Church of Global Warming? ;D
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Mar 24, 2011 16:24:24 GMT -5
Ed don't forget the Westboro Baptist Church, GLAD, Code Pink, and last but NOT least Act-Up..
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2011 16:50:12 GMT -5
T.H.E.Y. come to grab you in VANS!!! The helicopter stories are a clever distraction to keep you looking up, so you don't see the vans coming. AND they're GREEN! NOT BLACK!!!
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2011 16:52:26 GMT -5
When one joins the Democratic Party, does one have to sign some kind of oath that you will support inane liberal schemes like the UN, NPR, the ACLU and the Church of Global Warming? ;D I considered becoming a liberal when I was younger for the hot, slutty chicks. However, even at a time when my little head should have been doing most of my thinking for me, I couldn't get past the intellectual argument that if we just want world peace enough, we could have it.
|
|
hello fromWarsaw
Senior Member
Hiya! Wake UP!!
Joined: Feb 13, 2011 1:24:04 GMT -5
Posts: 2,044
|
Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 24, 2011 16:54:30 GMT -5
Keep those blinders on! Pubs MAKE the UN a joke with their stupid xenophobic arrogance, then complain about it. Luckily the info age will disappear you and your favorite dictators. Moohaha
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Mar 24, 2011 16:55:03 GMT -5
When one joins the Democratic Party, does one have to sign some kind of oath that you will support inane liberal schemes like the UN, NPR, the ACLU and the Church of Global Warming? ;D I considered becoming a liberal when I was younger for the hot, slutty chicks. However, even at a time when my little head should have been doing most of my thinking for me, I couldn't get past the intellectual argument that if we just want world peace enough, we could have it. Do you know what is worse than a Bigoted and Narrowed Minded Liberal? Answer: Two of them..
|
|
hello fromWarsaw
Senior Member
Hiya! Wake UP!!
Joined: Feb 13, 2011 1:24:04 GMT -5
Posts: 2,044
|
Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 24, 2011 17:01:48 GMT -5
Only idiot pub dupes know the truth about climate change ;D
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Mar 24, 2011 17:47:39 GMT -5
Only idiot pub dupes know the truth about climate change ;D The truth, you can't handle the truth..hellofromwarsaw... You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You hellofromwarsaw...or the liberals? I don't think so..
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Mar 24, 2011 18:52:57 GMT -5
The U.N. is like an Olympic Medal Round Table that includes everyone in an effort to ignore the fact that some countries WIN, and some countries LOSE. It's an effort to pretend there is no podium atop which sits the United States. It's an effort at moral equivalence- pretending morally inferior failed states have an equal say in things. Of course, it's founders sure wish it were true- but it's really nothing but a cruel joke on the losers. There is no "moral equivalence" about it. It is the old "social equalism" status. We are all the same no matter how much someone brings to the table, while someone else just takes up space at the table, waiting to peck at the carcass for whatever is left.
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 24, 2011 21:05:52 GMT -5
Only idiot pub dupes know the truth about climate change ;D The truth, you can't handle the truth..hellofromwarsaw... You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You hellofromwarsaw...or the liberals? I don't think so..[/quote] ---------------------------------------------------------- mmm, Not a bad Jack Nicholson, not bad at all. I love Nicholson, what a actor and charecter he is.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2011 22:17:14 GMT -5
The flaw in the concept of the United Nations is that it fails to acknowledge the fact that societies built upon a foundation of individual liberty, property rights, and free markets are morally superior to every other arrangement societies have attempted.
That's an important point to grasp because in a body that attempts to solve differences between nations before they end up in armed conflict, we have to agree upon a moral standard; an organization that seeks justice and a better world, has to be on the same page on what justice means, and what a better world looks like.
Our country has to resist the historical, and widespread current impulse of governing bodies to believe in their own omnipotence, and ignore individual rights. The U.N.'s legitimacy is threatened by the fact that it is a cadre of governments, and not all of those governments are legitimate because not all governments are in place as a result of the conscent of the governed. A government like that is inferior, and shouldn't have the same seat at the table as legitimately formed governments.
This is a different stand I think from most Americans, including my fellow conservatives. I don't believe in the United States' position at the UN being determined purely by our military and economic might.
We have to acknowledge that our position doesn't come purely from the fact we have the best form of government on earth, and our cultural and moral superiority. Those things enhance our natural blessings, but I don't think the moral inferiority or superiority of different societies causes human history to take one particular path over others.
America has lasted this long because of the courage and strength of particular individuals and conservatives are loathe to admit this, but also the happy accident of their having found themselves at a particular place and time.
We are fortunate to be their descendants and should marvel daily at our good fortune, we should each be grateful that Providence made us Americans, or, if you prefer- simply appreciative of our incredibly good luck.
History turns a lot more on "luck" than we wish to acknowledge. Imagine there had been an epidemic in New England that killed off many of the founding fathers.
The point I'm making is that morality is a property that things have outside of their place in the making of history. The inherent moral quality of good ideas does not cause them to prevail over others because ideas only live in people, and people are definitely imperfect.
Which brings me to the second point about which I disagree with many of my conservative friends on: This notion that it is our duty to "evangelize" morally backward societies.
In the first place I think this runs against the freedom of others to live their lives as they see fit, even if we know they're wrong. It violates our Constitution, and undermines our credibility, tarnishes our image, and that's at best.
Second, but just as important-- recorded history offers not one example that comes to my mind of this working as intended by the evangelizer. Thus I oppose particularly militaristic moral evangelizing both because it calls into question the motivations of the evangelizer and also because it cannot, in my opinion, result in happy consequences for anyone. The success our nation has had in advancing liberty in world history comes from two things: first, the fact that we have welcomed other people to our land and have let them see for themselves how we live and draw their own conclusions about how much happier they would be if they did similarly and, second, by serving as an example for others to look up to from the vantage point of living in their backward societies.
My prescription for defending our way of life therefore specifically does away with trying to change other people.
And while I acknowledge that while my view rests on seeing the world as more complex than we are able to understand in the same way that central economic planning is bound to fail because no one has enough information to understand an economy.
Most plans fall apart and grand plans are more likely to fall apart and to have a multitude of painful unintended consequences.
That's the tragic worldview. So we have to guard against hubris and always maintain the vigilance of prudence. This, in turn, must be carried out by a posture of unambiguous resolve, a clearly stated willingness to act decisively as soon as action is called for, and a carefully maintained reputation for fighting hard for a clearly defined objective and disengaging our forces as soon as that objective is accomplished. Really, it's just the way of the Samurai at the level of a nation-state: avoid confrontation as much as possible so as not to expend your power unnecessarily; if confrontation is unavoidable, act swiftly and with complete commitment; when victory is yours, go back to your stronghold lest your power be compromised by overcommitment; if victory cannot be won, disengage swiftly under the best terms possible so as to preserve your power for other battles. And there will always be other battles.
Participation in the U.N. undermines its own objectives-- it has drawn the U.S. into more conflicts than it has kept us out of-- including the most recent war in Libiya-- and while it draws us in, and causes us to expend power unnecessarily, it simultaneously making the objectives ambiguous, unclear, foggy, and prevents us from acting decisively.
It's ridiculous. We don't have to be isolationist to extricate ourselves from this mess.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 26, 2011 5:59:49 GMT -5
I actually had to run into the bathroom and put in some new contact lenses just to make sure I read that right.
Are you suggesting that the Westboro Baptist Church is liberal?
Seriously?
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Mar 26, 2011 6:13:44 GMT -5
I actually had to run into the bathroom and put in some new contact lenses just to make sure I read that right. Are you suggesting that the Westboro Baptist Church is liberal? Seriously?Well then Ma'am since you asked the Reverend Phelps teachings and rantings seem to be very liberal with his sermons and interpretation of the Bible, and seems to be very liberal with his weird interpretation of our Armed Forces, and does indeed seem to be very liberal with his interpretation of DADT...one could then deduct logically that the Westboro Baptist Church are a bunch of zealot liberals/weirdos whose every loose and liberal interpretations of just about everything in God's Green Earth is indeed extremely liberal, or probably sick and twisted which is very similar to being extremely liberal.. However I added the Westboro Baptist Church to see how many reading this thread would even know who they are and what they are all about....BTW FYI I am NOT a member of that Church...Why you might ask? They don't think too kindly of retired marines who think they are all a bunch of jut jobs disguising themselves as Christans
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 26, 2011 6:46:34 GMT -5
You're mixing two different definitions of liberal. For instance, liberally applying mustard to a sandwich does not make one a liberal any more than liberally cherry picking from the Bible makes Fred Phelps a liberal.
But it was a nice try, anyhow. ;D
Uhm, because you're not a member of the Phelps family? Their relatives are the only people who go there, LOL!
I don't think those crazies think too kindly of anyone except for their church congregation - who are all related to each other. Can we say inbreeding? Nasty!
|
|