so1970
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Mar 22, 2011 9:07:36 GMT -5
Post by so1970 on Mar 22, 2011 9:07:36 GMT -5
i hear alot about switching jobs every 5 years or so . what ever happened to getting a job and keeping it till retirement?
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 9:09:57 GMT -5
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 22, 2011 9:09:57 GMT -5
The general population is much more mobile these days. This trend started in the early 70s, as the population became much more educated. Being educated gives one many more options.
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dancinmama
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Mar 22, 2011 9:16:54 GMT -5
Post by dancinmama on Mar 22, 2011 9:16:54 GMT -5
i hear alot about switching jobs every 5 years or so . what ever happened to getting a job and keeping it till retirement? Most private corporations used to offer a pension. The more years you put in with them, the higher the pension. Due to costs, many have dropped this benefit. The company DH works for employs over 140K people (so a pretty large company) and they dropped the pension benefit in 2006, excluding pension for all new hires after that time.
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Deleted
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Mar 22, 2011 9:18:34 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 9:18:34 GMT -5
Large corporations are not built to be loyal, so there is no reason for the employees to be loyal, and small companies come and go to quickly for employees to be loyal.
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 9:21:35 GMT -5
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 22, 2011 9:21:35 GMT -5
Those days are gone. And, it even seems to be discouraged. If you aren't actively moving about then you are somehow viewed as being a dinosaur who doesn't want to learn new skills, yada, yada. Though, I have great respect for anyone who has done the same job for several decades! Kind of like going to a 50th wedding anniversary nowadays. You admire it because it is so rare. As for loyalty. What is that? Companies have demonstrated now that they will kick you to the curb for any and all reasons. Loyalty has to be a 2 way street. And , what does that mean, that you cannot look for a better job? That term only seems to be tossed about when someone wants to underpay you.
Ding-ding-ding-ding!!!!
The firm I work, we have roughly 55 employees, the bulk have 15 or more years tenure, with may here 20-25 years. Many here are dinosaurs, both the business side and IT. Some IT workers here are using technology that is nearing 40 years old, and refuse to pick up anything new. Many of the software applications use 1960s vintage techniques. These people will be here for another 15 years, and will be more than content doing the identical work using the same technology that will be 60 years old. It is comical to say the least.
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dancinmama
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Mar 22, 2011 9:24:54 GMT -5
Post by dancinmama on Mar 22, 2011 9:24:54 GMT -5
The general population is much more mobile these days. This trend started in the early 70s, as the population became much more educated. Being educated gives one many more options. In addition, the baby boomers started their careers in the late 70s and early 80s. They didn't think twice about jumping from one company to the next to increase their saralies. Many of them weren't even thinking about 30-40 years down the road to pensions, retiree medical, etc. I'm sure they are thinking about it now.
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dancinmama
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Mar 22, 2011 9:37:39 GMT -5
Post by dancinmama on Mar 22, 2011 9:37:39 GMT -5
Those days are gone. And, it even seems to be discouraged. If you aren't actively moving about then you are somehow viewed as being a dinosaur who doesn't want to learn new skills, yada, yada. Though, I have great respect for anyone who has done the same job for several decades! Kind of like going to a 50th wedding anniversary nowadays. You admire it because it is so rare. As for loyalty. What is that? Companies have demonstrated now that they will kick you to the curb for any and all reasons. Loyalty has to be a 2 way street. And , what does that mean, that you cannot look for a better job? That term only seems to be tossed about when someone wants to underpay you. Ding-ding-ding-ding!!!! The firm I work, we have roughly 55 employees, the bulk have 15 or more years tenure, with may here 20-25 years. Many here are dinosaurs, both the business side and IT. Some IT workers here are using technology that is nearing 40 years old, and refuse to pick up anything new. Many of the software applications use 1960s vintage techniques. These people will be here for another 15 years, and will be more than content doing the identical work using the same technology that will be 60 years old. It is comical to say the least. First, I would have to say that management/ownership is the one dropping the ball - not the employees. If the ones who run/own the company really wanted the latest IT, they'd have it. The company that DH works for has always had the latest and greatest. People are required to take training courses regularly. Some are done on the computer, some are week long seminars at corporate headquarters, and some are week long crash courses at Carnegie Mellon University. Actually, because the younger generation has been so mobile, his company is concerned about the transfer of knowledge from the baby boom generation to the following generations before the baby boomers retire. Perhaps the company that DH works for is an anomaly.
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 9:39:41 GMT -5
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 22, 2011 9:39:41 GMT -5
they don't want Joe Schmo Six Pack to do the same and for some reason JoeSchmo is supposed to have undying "loyalty" at his $8 /hr job. Uh huh.
Someone earning $8, is most likely in a transient, temporary job. If they are not in such a position, they are likely in the job for pocket cash and just for something to do to get out of the house.
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 9:41:57 GMT -5
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 22, 2011 9:41:57 GMT -5
First, I would have to say that management/ownership is the one dropping the ball - not the employees. If the ones who run/own the company really wanted the latest IT, they'd have it.
Honestly, you have no idea.
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Mar 22, 2011 9:53:30 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 9:53:30 GMT -5
Those days are gone. And, it even seems to be discouraged. If you aren't actively moving about then you are somehow viewed as being a dinosaur who doesn't want to learn new skills, yada, yada. Though, I have great respect for anyone who has done the same job for several decades! Kind of like going to a 50th wedding anniversary nowadays. You admire it because it is so rare. As for loyalty. What is that? Companies have demonstrated now that they will kick you to the curb for any and all reasons. Loyalty has to be a 2 way street. And , what does that mean, that you cannot look for a better job? That term only seems to be tossed about when someone wants to underpay you. Amen! The other day a co-worker that has been with my current company for 17 years asked me if I was looking for another job... I said no that I was currently happy with my current position but doesn't mean I am not keeping my resume updated, going back to school for an MBA and trying my best to keep my skills up to date. He started to say how the company has treated him well and he sees himself here till retirement (some people have been with my company for 30-40 years) which is great, but doesn't mean it has to be for me. If I am there in 30 years, I better have received several promotions and making similar to what I would be making elsewhere. I don't want to be like the clerck that is getting paid $20/hr just because they have been with the company 18 years... and them knowing full well if they were to get fired tomorrow they would not find a job paying similar amount. It makes you dependent on the company to much and always afraid of losing your job. They might like it that way, I surely don't and don't intend to find myself in that situation.
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 9:58:10 GMT -5
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 22, 2011 9:58:10 GMT -5
Caw, You have the right focus. Kudos!!! SF
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Gardening Grandma
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Mar 22, 2011 10:10:26 GMT -5
Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 22, 2011 10:10:26 GMT -5
what ever happened to getting a job and keeping it till retirement?
dancinmama is right on. I retired from a company after 32 years. DH worked for them 38 years before retirement. About 10 years before I retired, the company started telling its employees not to expect to retire with a pension because lifetime employment was going the way of the dinosaur.
Employees got the message. And I'm not talking about $8/hr employees either. After I retired, I was immediately hired by a small company at a lot more pay.
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so1970
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Mar 22, 2011 10:27:42 GMT -5
Post by so1970 on Mar 22, 2011 10:27:42 GMT -5
i have been at my job 22 years started as a deckhand worked my way to the wheelhouse been running captain for 10 years. the pay has always been equal or above what i could get else where. bonuses,off time etc. as we are union the insurance and retirement are paid into a central pension fund so thats good. but even here people are always talking about going to a different company. its not office work so i dont see where theres going to be any better technology at the next place, so is it that people just get tired of seeing the same people every day?
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shanendoah
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Mar 22, 2011 11:05:31 GMT -5
Post by shanendoah on Mar 22, 2011 11:05:31 GMT -5
When I changed jobs last time, I went from a small company where there was no room for advancement to a larger (though still not huge) company where I would have room to grow and stay with the same employer. And its worked well for me. I've been here just over 6 years and have received 2 promotions. I started as an Admin and am now a manager. However, I probably won't be able to stay at my company long term. There is room for the type of work I do at the manager level and again at the highest level (Chief of Staff for our CEO), but nothing really at the Director or VP levels, which generally require specific area knowledge and skills. So I expect that in 3-4 years, when I'm ready for a change and new challenges, while I will look for opportunities at my current company (I really do like it here), I will need to go elsewhere.
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Tiny
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Mar 22, 2011 11:50:25 GMT -5
Post by Tiny on Mar 22, 2011 11:50:25 GMT -5
what ever happened to getting a job and keeping it till retirement?
The job market changed... can you really start out as a teller at the local bank, go to college get your accounting degree, and then move up the ladder at that bank, working there your entire lifetime? Will that bank even be there (bought out by another bank)? Will your job as an accountant or upper management even remain (bought out by another bank)?
You can apply that scenario to alot of 'career paths' in the business world. I think it would be pretty tough to even remain a low level 'clerk' kinda job at a big corporation for a life time - you'd have to be really open to change and roll with the changes the corporation goes thru. You can't really earn a good living wage by remaining at a low level job... and many companies don't have a 'career path' for people in the low level jobs to move up the ladder.
The only 'professions' I see with 'lifers' are union type jobs: Fireman, police, teachers, and the trades plumbers, electricians, etc... And even these people need to manage their 'career path' to move up the ladder to make more money (I have examples of teachers who did nothing to improve their salary/job path who screwed themselves financially... they have 15/20 years exp and are making alittle more than some newbie teachers... also heard stories of Firemen 'coasting' and not earning as much as they could have -which effects their pension) I'm not saying 'coasting' is a bad thing... just don't whine about you aren't making as much as other union people who chose NOT to coast. No, it's NOT unfair or wrong - you chose to coast you should have paid more attention to the consequences.
I also see alot of legal secretaries who are lifers - but then that's kinda the nature of the job if they have a attorney they work well with... they are part of that attorney's team and may have alot of knowledge the attorney can count on especially over time.
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Elizabeth
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Mar 22, 2011 12:27:54 GMT -5
Post by Elizabeth on Mar 22, 2011 12:27:54 GMT -5
Like many have said, companies are not loyal to workers, so why should we be to them? A friend of mine is getting terminated after being with the company for 17 years. It was his first job out of college and he just turned 40 a few months ago. He has exceled in every position he has ever had, and he accepted a promotion out here in San Diego a little over a year ago as a Director of Sales. Unfortunately, the San Diego marketplace is very small in comparision to some of the other areas in the company, as well as being hit with the CA budget crisis, and none of the sales reps are hitting their quotas, therefore he is not hitting his quota. They way his position is structured in retrospect is doomed to fail.
So now, he is being kicked to the curb after at least 15.5 years of success and bring in a lot of revenue to the company. They have insulted him by offering him a job 3 positions down in another area. He makes a good point when he says, even if I decided to take it, I would work someplace else for a year and get rehired because they always pay new hires more than what the tenured people make. It's a messed up situation and I feel bad for him.
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so1970
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Mar 22, 2011 12:27:59 GMT -5
Post by so1970 on Mar 22, 2011 12:27:59 GMT -5
if they did nothing to improve their skills moving to another company wouldn't help them anyway but if they did well on the job and learned more skills dealing with their trade would staying not be the best way to advance?
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gooddecisions
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Mar 22, 2011 12:36:43 GMT -5
Post by gooddecisions on Mar 22, 2011 12:36:43 GMT -5
I've seen the word "tenure" in a few posts so thought I would comment. I just received my 10 year anniversary award and mentioned to some friends the milestone. One friend comment "oh, you're tenured now!" Bahahaha- what the heck is tenured outside of academia? My employer has no more loyalty to me than the person they hired last week.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Mar 22, 2011 12:39:43 GMT -5
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 22, 2011 12:39:43 GMT -5
but if they did well on the job and learned more skills dealing with their trade would staying not be the best way to advance? Some of it is perception though. If you stay in the same job too long your boss starts to take it for granted. It's easier to overlook the things you're doing to better yourself, you're fixed in the position and really good at it, so why rock the boat, yadda, yadda, yadda. There's also an element of knowing that you're loyal to the company, so won't fight as hard for raises and whatnot. None of it is stuff that a manager would consciously think about, but over time those subconscious things will mean you get less pay, take longer to move up the ladder, and aren't as appreciated as you would be by moving jobs every so often. If you work for a company that really aggressively trains their people, is constantly challenging them, always promotes internally first, etc., then maybe you'd come out ahead or even by staying with that company your whole career. How many of us can honestly say that's how our companies work though? It seems that most bosses would rather hire somebody, train them once, and have them do the same job forever. When a higher level position opens up, they hire somebody else instead of promoting from within and hiring a new entry level position to back fill for the last person.
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dancinmama
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Mar 22, 2011 12:42:30 GMT -5
Post by dancinmama on Mar 22, 2011 12:42:30 GMT -5
I've seen the word "tenure" in a few posts so thought I would comment. I just received my 10 year anniversary award and mentioned to some friends the milestone. One friend comment "oh, you're tenured now!" Bahahaha- what the heck is tenured outside of academia? My employer has no more loyalty to me than the person they hired last week. They probably misspoke and meant "vested" for some kind of retirement benefit.
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raeoflyte
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Mar 22, 2011 12:47:03 GMT -5
Post by raeoflyte on Mar 22, 2011 12:47:03 GMT -5
Every company that I have worked for in the last 9 years, will give a 'raise' for promotions, but since you started out on the lower end, you'll never make as much as someone hired in from outside.
You can raise a fuss about it and be labeled a trouble maker, or you can go outside the company, get a good raise and maybe some additional experience, and then come back to Company A and get the salary you ideally would have with their 'promotion'.
It's an unfortunate situation, and I think some of it is just the current economy, but I know my company has no loyalty to me, so I don't stick my neck out for them.
(My sales team is another matter--and I'll jump through hoops to help them).
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gooddecisions
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Mar 22, 2011 12:50:43 GMT -5
Post by gooddecisions on Mar 22, 2011 12:50:43 GMT -5
....."They probably misspoke and meant "vested" for some kind of retirement benefit."
Perhaps that explains it. My company vests employer contributions at the 5 year mark. Employee contributions are immediately 100% vested. Which I guess is decent.
Oops, that is incorrect- all employees are now vested immediately on their own contributions as well as employer contributions. So, I guess we're all "tenured". lol
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 12:53:30 GMT -5
Post by ziyia on Mar 22, 2011 12:53:30 GMT -5
If you stay in the same job too long your boss starts to take it for granted. It's easier to overlook the things you're doing to better yourself, you're fixed in the position and really good at it, so why rock the boat, yadda, yadda, yadda. There's also an element of knowing that you're loyal to the company, so won't fight as hard for raises and whatnot. None of it is stuff that a manager would consciously think about, but over time those subconscious things will mean you get less pay, take longer to move up the ladder, and aren't as appreciated as you would be by moving jobs every so often.
This. This is exactly the position that I and most of my division are in right now. Most people here have 15+ years at this company. They think no one will ever leave, so we always end up taking a backseat to other divisions (where turnover is much higher) when it comes to raises, expansion, etc.
Ironically, after 6 years here I've just accepted a position with another company, and yesterday I told my boss I was leaving. Yesterday he was supportive. Today, after thinking about everything that I do that he now has to find a replacement for, he was panicking.
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dancinmama
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Mar 22, 2011 13:10:34 GMT -5
Post by dancinmama on Mar 22, 2011 13:10:34 GMT -5
Every company that I have worked for in the last 9 years, will give a 'raise' for promotions, but since you started out on the lower end, you'll never make as much as someone hired in from outside. Wow, DH's company is not like that. His company compares what their workers are making compared to each other (at the same pay grade) and compared to employees at other companies who are in similar positions. As long as you get high ratings on your performance reviews, you will get a "comp ratio increase" until you "catch up". DH relocated with his company in 2005 and was promoted to manager, but at a pretty low salary for the labor grade. Between 2005 when he got the promotion and 2009, his company increased his salary by 58% through his annual merit increases AND comp ratio increases. Now that he is being payed fairly when compared to his colleagues, he only gets annual merit increases. It's all good. He plans to retire in the first quarter of 2012.
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dancinmama
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Mar 22, 2011 13:13:59 GMT -5
Post by dancinmama on Mar 22, 2011 13:13:59 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Mar 22, 2011 13:19:54 GMT -5
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 22, 2011 13:19:54 GMT -5
This. This is exactly the position that I and most of my division are in right now. Most people here have 15+ years at this company. They think no one will ever leave, so we always end up taking a backseat to other divisions (where turnover is much higher) when it comes to raises, expansion, etc. It's a bit like that where I work too. Part of it is working with IT nerds though. Some of them have spent the last three decades turning down promotions because they want to be techie people instead of managers, so they purposefully keep the same job and relative income for life. We recently had a project manager leave. Instead of promoting a team lead into the spot, promoting a tech into a team lead spot, and hiring a new tech, they just hired a project manager from outside. So the team leads, which is what I'm doing now, got the message loud and clear. They don't want to hire from within which could rock the boat, so if I want to keep advancing I've got to leave. Which is fine, it's not like we have a pension anyway. The sad part for the company though is that the attitude will cause the ambitious people, who are by and large more willing to tackle new projects, go above and beyond, etc. are now going to leave, and the people that just coast through their 40 (although they typically only work 35 or less when they can get away with it) will stay.
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thyme4change
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Mar 22, 2011 13:43:44 GMT -5
Post by thyme4change on Mar 22, 2011 13:43:44 GMT -5
I believe that some skills are not learned through training classes, and that many fresh approaches and new ideas come from people bringing the best ideas from other companies and integrating them into well functioning systems. If you have an entire department of people that have only worked for 1 company for 3 decades, their approach is likely to get stale. I know 10 different ways to do the same thing, because I've been at several companies and have worked with others who have been with several companies.
I'm at a company now where I'm watching several employees become outdated right before my eyes. They start sentences with things like "I've been doing this 30 years..." and "I've known this customer a long time..." Meanwhile, that customer, whom we've been doing business with for 30 years, has recently hired several new key employees and are changing some key business approaches that is changing their relationship with us. Unfortunately, we are absolutely unable to get in front of that change and lead them because we have people who insist that the customer isn't changing. One day we will wake up and our customer will have re-written the rules completely and we won't have any vision or strategy to continue to get the most out of the relationship. Basically, we are about to become their bitch.
I'm not saying everyone has to move around all the time - but there is definately value in keeping your ideas and approaches fresh. If you have a work force that resists that, it might be the downfall of your organization.
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loyalty
Mar 22, 2011 13:49:19 GMT -5
Post by illinicheme on Mar 22, 2011 13:49:19 GMT -5
So the team leads, which is what I'm doing now, got the message loud and clear. They don't want to hire from within which could rock the boat, so if I want to keep advancing I've got to leave. My first job was like that. A couple of favorite experiences: 1) One year I got an "exceeds" ranking on objectives worth 70% of my total and "meets" on 30%. Overall rating? Meets. My boss couldn't figure out how to justify it. Good wake-up call to the insanity of performance reviews in large companies. My motivation went straight out the window. 2) My time to first promotion was ~3 months longer than for a notorious screw-up in the department. Primary reason seemed to be that my tenure point can up around the holidays and no one got their act together until after the holidays. Management says "you can't think of it like that." I hear "you're worse than screw-up guy." Haven't been at current job long enough to evaluate how things will go around here.
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souldoubt
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Mar 22, 2011 13:49:40 GMT -5
Post by souldoubt on Mar 22, 2011 13:49:40 GMT -5
Loyalty is something that's declined with each generation and I say this in regards to both workers and employers. The days of being able to assume you'd have a job for so long are long gone. I'm very loyal to my company and feel that my job is safe but know that if the proverbial poo hits the fan they'll cut jobs to stay afloat as they should.
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thyme4change
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Mar 22, 2011 15:13:45 GMT -5
Post by thyme4change on Mar 22, 2011 15:13:45 GMT -5
I'm loyal to my boss - when he leaves, I'll probably move on. I had 2 other bosses that I was loyal to, and left the company shortly after they did. Both times I had known their replacement for a fair amount of time - so it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction.
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