AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 22, 2011 11:03:08 GMT -5
Illustrates the need for tax reform. Illustrates the need for the elimination of all taxes on savings, investment, and the production of income and shift to taxes on CONSUMPTION.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:10:43 GMT -5
I know I will get some flak for saying this, but I think servers complain too much. They make decent money for running around carrying trays with food on them. Last time I checked, waiting tables did not require a college degree. If you wanna get paid as much, then go to college or get a more challenging job. Servers don't make the food and they don't make the drinks (and, in some restaurants, they don't even clean the tables). All they do is take my order, put it in and then bring it back when it's ready. Whoop-tee freakin' do! Some of them can't even do that right, but they still expect a tip. Although I understand it can be stressful when the restaurant is busy, it is not complicated.
I've been a server and I never complained about my job. I actually liked it - shocker, I know. Waiting tables can be a lot of fun.
It can also be hard, grueling work for which you may be paid quite little in return. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never been a server? If you had, you would at least know that a lot of servers are in college and doing what they're doing in order to pay rent and tuition.
Just because something isn't complicated doesn't mean it isn't difficult. Heck, just look at successful financial management. Not at all complicated, yet incredibly difficult for most people.
Work a couple of busy shifts where you're shafted on a few big tips and get back to me about how it isn't difficult and you're well paid for the work you do.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:13:34 GMT -5
There is too much of a sense of entitlement when it comes to tipping in this country. A tip should be earned, not expected. It should be looked at as a bonus.
The first sentence - which I entirely agree with - does not apply to the second, because that's not how the pay structure works. Tips ARE earned, but they are also expected because they comprise a large part of your WAGE. Do you expect to be paid your full wage for doing your job?
The third is utter nonsense. Did your last bonus at your job take you up to $8 per hour or whatever the current minimum wage is in your state? Or were you already making a living wage? I thought so.
No one hates entitlement mentality more than me, but equating tips with "bonuses" in the restaurant industry is pure nonsense.
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brdsl
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Post by brdsl on Mar 22, 2011 11:14:00 GMT -5
So, if I pay the bill in cash, should I tip on a credit card? Just doing my part to help the IRS.....
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:17:21 GMT -5
That said, I also don't think it should be the customer's responsibility to pay the waitstaff a fair wage. It is the restaurant owner's responsibility!
Okay, so you don't mind having the price of your entree doubled then? Because that's what would happen if restaurants decided to pay servers $9/hour out of their own pockets. They would have to raise the price of food.
Plus, it would eliminate the incentive to work hard. Lazy servers would get paid the same as hardworking servers. Hardworking servers won't put up with that for very long, which means you'll be stuck with the crap service that Dark described, for which you will pay twice as much.
Sound like a good deal?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 22, 2011 11:21:02 GMT -5
Lazy servers would get paid the same as hardworking servers
Lazy servers still get paid pretty close to what the hardworking server makes. If you don't make a certain % in tips off your sale the resturant has to make up the difference to raise your wage to minimum.
I take home more in cash, the lazy server gets a bigger paycheck.
Tips don't really do much to reward or punish.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:23:16 GMT -5
Tips don't really do much to reward or punish.
They do more to reward and punish within the current system than they would if everyone was paid exactly the same for the same work.
I agree that it isn't perfect because there are a lot of people who tip 15% regardless of service. But the alternatives are even worse. Believe me, service will sink to the lowest common denominator in most restaurants if we lose tipping (it would only stay top-notch in places where dinner cost $300 / head).
ETA: It also depends on the place. I made more in tips than several of my colleagues, because we *did* work in a place where people had a habit of a) tipping based on performance, b) asking for their favorite servers every time they came, and c) patronizing the place regularly.
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:23:25 GMT -5
Nope, never been a server. So, enlighten me, what's so difficult about it? Is it dealing with customers? Is it being on your feet all day? Is it managing multiple tables? There are many other jobs that require you to deal with people, be on your feet all day, multi-task and for which you are not tipped.
I have friends who are servers and who, on any given day/night make between $15 to $20 an hour (sometimes more on busier nights). Are they satisfied? Nope! I listen to their whining all the time. Some people with college degrees don't even make that much. RIDICULOUS!
Y'all need to look for better jobs if being a server is so awful. Go work cleaning offices and scrubbing toilets for $8/hour (done that, too) and then let's talk difficult.
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:28:06 GMT -5
"Do you expect to be paid your full wage for doing your job?"
Yep, by my employer, not by the people I am paid to serve. Servers know what they are getting into when they apply for the job. They know that the job only pays $2,30/hour (or whatever it is). They know there is a risk as far as the possibility of some people not tipping, that the restaurant will be busy, etc, and that that will be reflective on his or her work. So, deal with it! It comes with the job. If you're not happy with it, go work elsewhere and quit expecting to make $20/hour for maneuvering trays around the restaurant. Sheesh!
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:32:42 GMT -5
"Believe me, service will sink to the lowest common denominator in most restaurants if we lose tipping."
Oh my gosh, excuse me if I call b.s. on this one. The U.S. is one of the few countries where this senseless tipping occurs. You obviously haven't traveled abroad much. Try it. It'll change your fishbowl mentality.
And, I have no problem with the price of food going up at restaurants to pay the waitstaff what they deserve (not 20%).
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kimber45
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Post by kimber45 on Mar 22, 2011 11:33:29 GMT -5
I have done both. If it is business related, I use my credit card and put the tip on there. if it is personal, I will pay the tip in cash whether or not I pay cash or use my card for the meal. AT the bars, it is strictly cash.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 22, 2011 11:33:34 GMT -5
They do more to reward and punish within the current system than they would if everyone was paid exactly the same for the same work
Eh, I don't know. People generally don't seem to notice bare minimum service unless it directly affects them. As long as the right food cooked the right way gets to the table most people don't care.
Not saying people don't reward for good service, they do, but overall I don't think people really care all that much if the server is excelling or just barely hitting the bar.
Especially in bigger and chain resturants where you could have more than a dozen servers on any given night.
Smaller, higher end and local places I think it can make a bigger impact, but I don't think most people eating at Applebee's give a crap if their server is excelling or bare minimum.
Then at least over the 10 years I've done it I find even between the excellent and lazy server tips average out over time when you factor in people who stif, people who automatically tip a $1 etc.
I just don't buy the excuse that if you just paid servers minimum everyone would become lazy poor workers.
You'd probably, IMO, weed out the lazy people because they won't show up thinking they are going to walk out with several hundred dollars worth of tips every night.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:38:15 GMT -5
Nope, never been a server. So, enlighten me, what's so difficult about it? Is it dealing with customers? Is it being on your feet all day? Is it managing multiple tables? There are many other jobs that require you to deal with people, be on your feet all day, multi-task and for which you are not tipped.
I worked in a pretty nice place, and again, I enjoyed my job a lot. It was a high-energy, generally friendly atmosphere and management was really great about backing us up. So my experience was one of the better ones.
During my time there, I or one of my fellow waitstaff dealt with the following situations:
1) Getting groped by a drunk customer on their way to the bathroom.
2) Getting called stupid, moron, whore, [racial and sexual slurs] and a host of other insults at a decibel loud enough to be heard by the entire restaurant.
3) Having customers run out on their bill - as I said, management was great about backing us up when this happened and we never had to pay for the meal (a lot of places aren't as great and DO make servers pay for the meal when that happens, which can mean that you pay the restaurant for a night of work) but we did lose the tip, which can cut way back on your nightly income.
4) Getting hit on very crudely and repeatedly. Getting phone numbers left as a "tip."
5) Hearing about how smart I was, and how "I should be doing more with my life" from total strangers that knew nothing about me.
I could go on, but the point is that unless you work as a stripper, you do NOT regularly have to deal with sexual harassment, crude insults, and the risk of not getting paid in other service jobs.
Now, granted, this stuff didn't happen often (if it had, I would have been out the door). But really, once is enough (especially 1 and 2). And after awhile, the really egregious stuff is all you remember. The milder insults, the condescension, and the run-of-the-mill rudeness rolls right off your back. That doesn't mean it's acceptable, or pleasant.
I have friends who are servers and who, on any given day/night make between $15 to $20 an hour (sometimes more on busier nights). Are they satisfied? Nope! I listen to their whining all the time. Some people with college degrees don't even make that much. RIDICULOUS!
I find this comment ironic in light of your earlier rant about how servers should just get an education so they don't have to wait tables anymore. A lot of servers DO stick with it because they're well paid. If they're still whining about a job at which they make good money, then why are you still spending time with them?
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:38:52 GMT -5
"Eh, I don't know. People generally don't seem to notice bare minimum service unless it directly affects them. As long as the right food cooked the right way gets to the table most people don't care.
Not saying people don't reward for good service, they do, but overall I don't think people really care all that much if the server is excelling or just barely hitting the bar."
Bingo! Most people go out for the food, not for the service.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:45:58 GMT -5
Oh my gosh, excuse me if I call b.s. on this one. The U.S. is one of the few countries where this senseless tipping occurs. You obviously haven't traveled abroad much. Try it. It'll change your fishbowl mentality.Holy guacamole, talk about entitlement. WE HAVE A DIFFERENT SYSTEM HERE. Going to other countries means that you follow their rules and customs. Which is something I actually did learn when I visited other countries. In the U.S., it's customary to tip. Anyone who doesn't tip when they know full well that's how servers earn their wage because they think it's unfair or it's different in their own country is a cheap jerk. Seriously. There's no other way to describe that kind of behavior. And if this is the way you speak to your server friends, I can kind of understand why they whine to you in response...
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:46:49 GMT -5
I find this comment ironic in light of your earlier rant about how servers should just get an education so they don't have to wait tables anymore. It is a fact that most college educated people get paid well, but not all degrees are rewarded the same. A lot of servers DO stick with it because they're well paid. If they're still whining about a job at which they make good money, then why are you still spending time with them? If I were to end my friendships with everyone who whined about something, I'd have no friends. They are still good people despite their whining. I have friends who whine about how hard it is to be teachers and they get paid $50k+. Point is, if it is so awful, if it is so hard, then go work somewhere else (and, yes, I've told them that). It's what you signed up for!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:47:20 GMT -5
Bingo! Most people go out for the food, not for the service.
And a lot of people who say that will be the first in line to complain if they don't get their food in a timely manner, if they're not told the specials, if their server is off doing coke in the kitchen instead of checking on their meals, and their drinks never get refilled.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 11:49:50 GMT -5
If I were to end my friendships with everyone who whined about something, I'd have no friends. They are still good people despite their whining. I have friends who whine about how hard it is to be teachers and they get paid $50k+. Point is, if it is so awful, if it is so hard, then go work somewhere else (and, yes, I've told them that). It's what you signed up for! And I agree with this completely. I have very little patience for people who bitch about their jobs, for any reason. If you don't like it, quit and find something else to do. Don't be a martyr about it. All I'm saying is that waiting can be a difficult, unpleasant job. If you haven't ever done it, then you can't fully understand that and you have a gigantic chip on your shoulder to boot.
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:51:38 GMT -5
"WE HAVE A DIFFERENT SYSTEM HERE. Going to other countries means that you follow their rules and customs. Which is something I actually did learn when I visited other countries."
Talk about a status-quo mentality. If it's broken or there's a better way to do it, let's fix it. We don't live in a fishbowl (well, maybe some of us do). If you have visited other countries where tipping is not customary, then you know that your statement about the quality of service sans tipping is complete b.s.
"And if this is the way you speak to your server friends, I can kind of understand why they whine to you in response."
They need some sense knocked into them. It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it.
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mmkad4
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Post by mmkad4 on Mar 22, 2011 11:55:46 GMT -5
"All I'm saying is that waiting can be a difficult, unpleasant job. If you haven't ever done it, then you can't fully understand that and you have a gigantic chip on your shoulder to boot."
I concede. You've got a point here.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 22, 2011 11:58:30 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? DD LOVES being a server. She makes more in one night shift than her retail friends do in a week of hour after hour. No restaurant worth snot lets it's servers be treated disrespectfully and maybe she is just lucky because her customers are nice. Is it her lifetime career goal? No but it sure pays her bills and then some. She is lucky and grateful to have this job and her customers are a lot of repeaters who will wait for her tables to come available. Management LOVES this about her so she is golden as she should be.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 12:29:26 GMT -5
That's how it was for me, zib. At the right restaurant where management treats their servers well, it can be a fun job. I always felt I was very adequately compensated for what I did.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 22, 2011 13:03:12 GMT -5
Okay, so you don't mind having the price of your entree doubled then? Because that's what would happen if restaurants decided to pay servers $9/hour out of their own pockets. They would have to raise the price of food. No they wouldn't. In CA servers are paid state minimum wage, which I think is still $8/hour, and the prices at Denny's and other low end places are exactly the same here as they are in AZ which has the lower minimum wage for servers. If a place selling food for $5-10 a plate can pay their servers a decent wage without raising prices, I'm sure places charging $20-50 can do the same. It's a bogus argument. Plus, it would eliminate the incentive to work hard. Lazy servers would get paid the same as hardworking servers. Hardworking servers won't put up with that for very long, which means you'll be stuck with the crap service that Dark described, for which you will pay twice as much. Doubtful. Most servers don't put forth that much effort now anyway, because they're expecting a tip whether they go above and beyond or not. Besides, I didn't describe crappy service. I described what I think of as great service. I don't want the waitress hovering over me while I eat and trying to chit chat. If I wanted to chit chat with her at dinner I would have taken her out. I want to chit chat with whoever I'm eating with, and I want the waitress to be efficient at getting the food out, keeping the drinks filled, etc, but otherwise stay out of the damn way. During my time there, I or one of my fellow waitstaff dealt with the following situations:
1) Getting groped by a drunk customer on their way to the bathroom.
2) Getting called stupid, moron, whore, [racial and sexual slurs] and a host of other insults at a decibel loud enough to be heard by the entire restaurant.
3) Having customers run out on their bill - as I said, management was great about backing us up when this happened and we never had to pay for the meal (a lot of places aren't as great and DO make servers pay for the meal when that happens, which can mean that you pay the restaurant for a night of work) but we did lose the tip, which can cut way back on your nightly income.
4) Getting hit on very crudely and repeatedly. Getting phone numbers left as a "tip."
5) Hearing about how smart I was, and how "I should be doing more with my life" from total strangers that knew nothing about me. People working minimum wage jobs at fast food places put up with all that too, also handle food, and don't expect a tip for doing their job. All I'm saying is that waiting can be a difficult, unpleasant job. If you haven't ever done it, then you can't fully understand that and you have a gigantic chip on your shoulder to boot. Fine, but I've worked as a server, in a couple different restaurants, and with tips it pays pretty well considering it's a job anyone can do with a week or two of training.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 22, 2011 13:08:39 GMT -5
don't want the waitress hovering over me while I eat and trying to chit chat. If I wanted to chit chat with her at dinner I would have taken her out. I want to chit chat with whoever I'm eating with, and I want the waitress to be efficient at getting the food out, keeping the drinks filled, etc, but otherwise stay out of the damn way.
God you reminded me of this kid I nearly pummeled once. He would come by at regular intervals and go "Are you done with your plate?"
It was opening night so I tried to give the kid a little slack because he was new but after the third time I almost killed him. Does it LOOK LIKE I am done with my plate?
DH wouldn't let me say anything because that was "rude". So is asking a customer every five minutes if they are done with their plate!
I am a huge critic of service because I've done it, it ain't rocket science to give good service and I've fought with DH numerous times over how much to tip someone.
it pays pretty well considering it's a job anyone can do with a week or two of training
You'd be surprised. I don't know where my great uncle finds some of these girls but he's got a 17 item menu and it will be 6 months later and they will STILL not have it memorized.
But does he fire them? NO.
Short of murdering a customer or stealing it's pretty damn hard to do such a poor job that you get fired as a server. Most people quit.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 13:19:13 GMT -5
People working minimum wage jobs at fast food places put up with all that too, also handle food, and don't expect a tip for doing their job.
I worked at McDonald's too, and I never had to put up with ANY of that. Plus it was a significantly easier job than being a waitress. I didn't expect to be paid as much considering it wasn't even half as difficult as being a waitress. Working at McD's was downright relaxing by comparison.
Fine, but I've worked as a server, in a couple different restaurants, and with tips it pays pretty well considering it's a job anyone can do with a week or two of training.
I'm not arguing that waiting can pay well (although, contrary to what you said earlier, you *do* have to meet certain minimum standards of efficiency and skill in order to make decent money - more on this in a minute). I'm arguing this weird idea some people have that it's an easy job. It's not even close to being the easiest service job out there.
Doubtful. Most servers don't put forth that much effort now anyway, because they're expecting a tip whether they go above and beyond or not. Besides, I didn't describe crappy service. I described what I think of as great service. I don't want the waitress hovering over me while I eat and trying to chit chat. If I wanted to chit chat with her at dinner I would have taken her out. I want to chit chat with whoever I'm eating with, and I want the waitress to be efficient at getting the food out, keeping the drinks filled, etc, but otherwise stay out of the damn way.
Again, that hasn't been my experience - either as a diner or as a server. As a diner, I definitely notice subpar or exceptional service. Exceptional service wouldn't keep me going to a place where the food sucked, and it wouldn't keep me out of a place where the food was outstanding, but all things being equal it's definitely a factor I notice, and the restaurants I patronize have great food AND great service, not just the first one.
You might not give the quality of service much weight, but a lot of people do. Otherwise Zagat wouldn't bother rating it.
What you describe as "great service" I describe as annoying. Most people don't want to be hovered over while they eat. The efficiency that you're describing as "basic" is NOT the level of service you get from lazy waitstaff, it's the level of service you get from competent, efficient waitstaff. Perhaps you've been lucky and rarely experienced truly terrible service?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 22, 2011 13:25:14 GMT -5
No they wouldn't. In CA servers are paid state minimum wage, which I think is still $8/hour, and the prices at Denny's and other low end places are exactly the same here as they are in AZ which has the lower minimum wage for servers. If a place selling food for $5-10 a plate can pay their servers a decent wage without raising prices, I'm sure places charging $20-50 can do the same. It's a bogus argument.
At very low-quality service restaurants, this is true. No one expects a Denny's waitress to know anything about wine.
At places where the food is already expensive and there is an expectation that the service be excellent in addition, you're kidding yourself if you think a $200-1000 tip can be "built into" the wages of servers without the food prices going up and/or the service quality suffering mightily.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 22, 2011 13:30:23 GMT -5
I'm going to go out on a limb Firebird and say you are like me. Since you have been there and done that, you are a "harsh critic" as my husband calls it, of service.
I notice stuff that DH doesn't even blink an eye at. It'd have to be truly terrible service for him to really notice.
I think it is important, but I also don't think it is really that hard to do a good job and "excel" as a server.
I think it is rough physically and there are quite a few people out there who treat you as if you are the gum underneath your shoe, but honestly serving is one of the easiest jobs I've ever had and it was extremely easy to provide GOOD service.
I will also agree it depends on where you go the level of service you expect, but I also would expect that servers working in higher end restuarants aren't "Denny's" material.
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Mar 22, 2011 13:35:27 GMT -5
Firebird. For all of your years of wonderful service. I'd like to give you a tip. Never cook bacon naked.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 22, 2011 13:35:53 GMT -5
No kidding. I don't eat at Ocean Prime anymore because every time I went the server wouldn't know about the scallops and I would have to ask constant questions about them and the server would have to go get the NEXT answer. PUHLEEZE, it's a main course and you have no clue about the basic questions that someone will ask, like where are your scallops from? I actually got embarrassed to keep asking questions about them because I didn't want DF who was just DBF to think I was a bitch but when your entree is $48, you have the RIGHT to know where the bloody scallops are from. You want to work a high end place-KNOW your job. I told the manager on the way out that I would never come back because an untrained server reflects badly on a high end place. There are tons of over-priced restaurants I can go to that know their business. As far as food being spendy. I used to live in Oregon which also pays servers min wage plus tips and the food wasn't really that more expensive than regular prices elsewhere. But the servers sure hated "natives" that knew they got paid that because tips were maybe 10% as opposed to "foreigners-out of state people" that would tip 20% or more.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 22, 2011 13:37:05 GMT -5
At places where the food is already expensive and there is an expectation that the service be excellent in addition, you're kidding yourself if you think a $200-1000 tip can be "built into" the wages of servers without the food prices going up and/or the service quality suffering mightily. If the tip is $200-1000 that means the bill is $800-4,000 assuming a 25% tip, 20% is more common which would make the bill $1,000-5,000. If the bill for one meal for say four people is several grand how much of that do you really think is overhead?
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