milee
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Post by milee on Sept 30, 2016 12:01:59 GMT -5
Easier to remember this after the fact. And quite frankly, I would have been afraid to ask him for this at the time. I'm not afraid of a lot, but this cop freaking scared me. I think everyone has dealt with a cop that was kind of a dick at some point or another.
I got pulled over for speeding (and to be fair, I was speeding), aftering coming home from working a night shift. I was tired, had been working for 9+ hours on my feet, and just wanted to go to bed.
The cop threatened to take my to jail, that I could have died speeding like that, all kind of stuff. Like you said, perhaps trying to push my buttons. But I knew it was pointless to argue, and I was too tired to do that even if I wanted to. I can't say I was "scared" though.
That's because you are a large white male. Males that are not white have very different experiences with police - I started to see it when riding with male nonwhite friends. And with women it's very much a matter of not just who the individual officer is but if the interaction is in view of others. Most of the time as a woman - especially a white woman, officers are very polite and professional to me. But I remember really vividly being pulled over on a back road of Florida coming home from college one night. I think I was 18, weighed a little over 100 pounds and it was the middle of the night - nobody around and a deserted area. I was definitely speeding and had no problem with receiving a ticket. But when the 6' tall guy with a uniform and a gun suggested a "trade" to get out of the ticket, I was very, very scared. There was nobody around to see or help, this was back before dash cams - I realized anything could happen. I pretended to not understand what he was saying, told him I was going to check something in my car and luckily he dropped it. But yes, even people who are doing nothing wrong can feel very vulnerable and scared when dealing with police. I've tried to discuss these issues with my husband, who is also 6' so almost a foot taller than I am. Although he listens, I don't think he can really understand what it's like to be much smaller and female. He doesn't understand that it's not like women live in constant "fear" but most women are constantly vigilant and they've had so much practice they do it unconsciously without even thinking about it. Large white men will never really understand what it's like to be constantly aware of other people and situations because they are not used to feeling threatened like that.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 30, 2016 12:09:44 GMT -5
Males that are not white have very different experiences with police - I started to see it when riding with male nonwhite friends.
This is so very true. I was with a black friend, driving around with another white female in Houston. This cop really started to get aggressive with my friend (he was driving) until he saw that there were 2 white females in the car with him. He backed off big time with my black friend. He had previously tried to tell me that cops treat him differently when he gets stopped in traffic, and seeing is worth 1000 words. I'd hate to know what would have happened to my friend had we not also been in the car.
So who you are and who is with you can very well change the interaction.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 30, 2016 12:15:17 GMT -5
I got pulled over for speeding (and to be fair, I was speeding), aftering coming home from working a night shift. I was tired, had been working for 9+ hours on my feet, and just wanted to go to bed.
But you had a reason to get stopped. We didn't. He was being VERY careful to go the speed limit through Seattle, and was not going fast at all.
TD is usually not known for driving the speed limit. In fact, we got snagged a few months ago going up to Canada (we were still in the US). TD saw the cop pull out from the median, so immediately pulled over - the cop never even put on his lights. He got off with just a warning of not to speed. The cop said that because he pulled over so fast and didn't make him turn on his lights, he was going to give him a break. Difference in this interaction and the one earlier was like night and day.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 30, 2016 12:28:49 GMT -5
So, I'll go ahead and throw this dead cat of a topic on the table.
As you're no doubt aware, police use of lethal force, particularly against minorities, has been in the news a lot lately.
So my question is, when is police use of lethal force justified? Is there a problem with this in the U.S, and if so, how can it be fixed?
To be more specific, is lethal force justified when.
A. The suspect won't obey commands. B. When the suspect is behaving erratically. B. The officer cannot see the suspects hands (i.e. keeping them in their pockets or behind their back). C. When the suspect makes sudden movements (drawing something out of their pockets, or reaching into a car window for example) D. When the suspect is physically aggressive. E. When the suspect has a weapon that is not a firearm. F. When the suspect has a gun G. When the suspect has discharged a firearm.
Or some combination of the above.
How can we ensure incidents of unjustified lethal force are minimized but still respect the right of the officer to go home to their families at the end of the day? My personal feelings are that if an individual has a gun pointed at you/moving it to aim at you, you can use lethal force (not just if they happen to have one...frankly if a suspect has a gun in their hand and you can't shoot them while you're standing there aimed at them before they complete their motion, you might not be someone who should be an officer). Other option would be another kind of weapon within a distance to do serious physical damage (so if they're swinging a bat 2 feet from you, but not if they're swinging a tire iron while standing 40 feet away).
I realize police officers will want far more leeway in terms of using force because frankly, they're scared of the unknown like most of us are (like someone making quick movements with their hands). Part of the job though is keeping your head even when you're scared. You need to be SURE that someone is an immediate and lethal threat before resorting to lethal force, not just that you got scared and decided the best way to deal with your fear was to kill the thing scaring you.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Sept 30, 2016 12:35:39 GMT -5
A buddy and I were going to grab a bite to eat so we met at a mall and he was going to leave his car there while I drove. Before we could even get out of the parking lot a cop stopped us and told him he couldn't leave his car there while being a condescending ass. Mind you this was a mall parking lot, it was 3 hours before it would get dark, it wasn't full and he parked towards the back which was empty. I'm not saying he was allowed to park there but this cop watched him exit the freeway and pull in to the mall because he was black. If he was white I'd bet it doesn't happen and I know this is a microcosm of what he experiences. He brushed it off like it was nothing because he's dealt with it all his life but I was surprised and bothered by it. I've dealt with asshole cops before, have bit my tongue and followed their instructions but I imagine if I dealt with it more I'd end up in jail sooner or later when they give me crap on a day I just don't feel like dealing with it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 30, 2016 12:36:39 GMT -5
... They attribute it to the fact that more police officers refrain from shooting suspects due to worries that there's no video evidence to clearly exonerate them than shoot suspects unjustifiably. ... If they can refrain from shooting, then a shooting isn't justified. The fact remains that they're confident the video evidence will back them up, and shootings increase. As for your standard, I could only wish it were that simple. Real life is a game of perceptions, risks, and snap judgments. No doubt many a dead police officer would aver that it's sometime necessary to shoot when a suspect attempts to put his hand in his pocket. It's sometime necessary to shoot when a suspect is acting erratically and inside of charging distance. The decision on whether to shoot is a risk trade-off. There are no absolutes. I fall on the side of granting police wide latitude to defend themselves while keeping the peace. I have very little sympathy for any suspect resisting arrest. I have little sympathy for anyone who refuses to comply with police orders when facing the threat of lethal force, even if they're drunk, high, or enraged. The police shootings that upset me (and they do upset me) are those where the suspect is in the process of complying with police orders or is incapable of doing so and pleading his/her case with police but is shot anyway. I also fault the police when they gun down a man fleeing the scene of a non-violent crime. Having said this, of the many police shootings we've discussed in P/CE over the years, how many fall into the above categories? Very few, and most ended with criminal charges against the officers. Far more often, the suspect is violent, belligerent, enraged, with a criminal history. If officers feel threatened by such a man and shoot him, I'm not going to be the one to second guess their judgment.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 30, 2016 12:42:20 GMT -5
So, I'll go ahead and throw this dead cat of a topic on the table.
As you're no doubt aware, police use of lethal force, particularly against minorities, has been in the news a lot lately.
So my question is, when is police use of lethal force justified? Is there a problem with this in the U.S, and if so, how can it be fixed?
To be more specific, is lethal force justified when.
A. The suspect won't obey commands. B. When the suspect is behaving erratically. B. The officer cannot see the suspects hands (i.e. keeping them in their pockets or behind their back). C. When the suspect makes sudden movements (drawing something out of their pockets, or reaching into a car window for example) D. When the suspect is physically aggressive. E. When the suspect has a weapon that is not a firearm. F. When the suspect has a gun G. When the suspect has discharged a firearm.
Or some combination of the above.
How can we ensure incidents of unjustified lethal force are minimized but still respect the right of the officer to go home to their families at the end of the day? My personal feelings are that if an individual has a gun pointed at you/moving it to aim at you, you can use lethal force (not just if they happen to have one...frankly if a suspect has a gun in their hand and you can't shoot them while you're standing there aimed at them before they complete their motion, you might not be someone who should be an officer). Other option would be another kind of weapon within a distance to do serious physical damage (so if they're swinging a bat 2 feet from you, but not if they're swinging a tire iron while standing 40 feet away).
I realize police officers will want far more leeway in terms of using force because frankly, they're scared of the unknown like most of us are (like someone making quick movements with their hands). Part of the job though is keeping your head even when you're scared. You need to be SURE that someone is an immediate and lethal threat before resorting to lethal force, not just that you got scared and decided the best way to deal with your fear was to kill the thing scaring you.
By the time you see if what the person is drawing is a gun it's too late. You can make the argument that they signed up for the job to put their lives on the line, but I think cops have a right to see their families at the end of the day too.
As I said, I think if anyone makes a sudden move for what may or may not be a weapon, lethal force is justified. When it comes to drawing weapons, you often don't get a second chance.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 30, 2016 12:51:24 GMT -5
My personal feelings are that if an individual has a gun pointed at you/moving it to aim at you, you can use lethal force (not just if they happen to have one...frankly if a suspect has a gun in their hand and you can't shoot them while you're standing there aimed at them before they complete their motion, you might not be someone who should be an officer). Other option would be another kind of weapon within a distance to do serious physical damage (so if they're swinging a bat 2 feet from you, but not if they're swinging a tire iron while standing 40 feet away).
I realize police officers will want far more leeway in terms of using force because frankly, they're scared of the unknown like most of us are (like someone making quick movements with their hands). Part of the job though is keeping your head even when you're scared. You need to be SURE that someone is an immediate and lethal threat before resorting to lethal force, not just that you got scared and decided the best way to deal with your fear was to kill the thing scaring you.
By the time you see if what the person is drawing is a gun it's too late. You can make the argument that they signed up for the job to put their lives on the line, but I think cops have a right to see their families at the end of the day too.
As I said, I think if anyone makes a sudden move for what may or may not be a weapon, lethal force is justified. When it comes to drawing weapons, you often don't get a second chance.
My argument would primarily be that I hold police officers to a higher standard than I do the general public. If you have someone pull a gun on you in public, I think you have every right as a citizen to shoot them in the head. If you see someone acting suspiciously and making a sudden movement to their pocket, I don't believe you as a citizen have a right to shoot them in the head "just in case" because you were scared if you didn't they'd kill you.
They can definitely trust their judgment...but we can't pretend that just because they qualify to be cops that means they have GOOD judgment. I expect more from them than a regular citizen...so if it's not a scenario in which a regular citizen isn't justified in using lethal force, I don't believe police officers should be able to either (morally speaking, not necessarily legally, as I may have different views on when a citizen can use lethal force than what specific laws dictate).
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Sept 30, 2016 13:08:26 GMT -5
By the time you see if what the person is drawing is a gun it's too late. You can make the argument that they signed up for the job to put their lives on the line, but I think cops have a right to see their families at the end of the day too.
As I said, I think if anyone makes a sudden move for what may or may not be a weapon, lethal force is justified. When it comes to drawing weapons, you often don't get a second chance.
My argument would primarily be that I hold police officers to a higher standard than I do the general public. If you have someone pull a gun on you in public, I think you have every right as a citizen to shoot them in the head. If you see someone acting suspiciously and making a sudden movement to their pocket, I don't believe you as a citizen have a right to shoot them in the head "just in case" because you were scared if you didn't they'd kill you.
They can definitely trust their judgment...but we can't pretend that just because they qualify to be cops that means they have GOOD judgment. I expect more from them than a regular citizen...so if it's not a scenario in which a regular citizen isn't justified in using lethal force, I don't believe police officers should be able to either (morally speaking, not necessarily legally, as I may have different views on when a citizen can use lethal force than what specific laws dictate).
To me this is an apples to oranges comparison. If I see someone acting suspiciously in public I generally wouldn't get involved unless they were threatening or doing harm to someone else. Otherwise that's when you call the cops and let them handle it. If someone is poking around my property, I come up and ask what they're doing and they make a movement like going for a gun or knife that has me fear for my life then depending on the state I can justifiably defend myself with force. Cops don't generally just come up on people and start shooting. They announce themselves, tell the suspect to take their hands out of their pocket and/or drop what they're holding, get down on the ground face down and put their hands behind their back. If you ignore those instructions and threaten them then that's when they have to decide in a split second whether or not they respond with force. When they respond they're doing so to protect themselves but also knowing that if a suspect has a weapon and injures or kills them then the suspect can do harm to others too.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 30, 2016 13:13:14 GMT -5
A buddy and I were going to grab a bite to eat so we met at a mall and he was going to leave his car there while I drove. Before we could even get out of the parking lot a cop stopped us and told him he couldn't leave his car there while being a condescending ass. Mind you this was a mall parking lot, it was 3 hours before it would get dark, it wasn't full and he parked towards the back which was empty. I'm not saying he was allowed to park there but this cop watched him exit the freeway and pull in to the mall because he was black. If he was white I'd bet it doesn't happen and I know this is a microcosm of what he experiences. He brushed it off like it was nothing because he's dealt with it all his life but I was surprised and bothered by it. I've dealt with asshole cops before, have bit my tongue and followed their instructions but I imagine if I dealt with it more I'd end up in jail sooner or later when they give me crap on a day I just don't feel like dealing with it. I'm not going to argue your point that some cops are jerks, or that there are bad cops out there, just like there are bad people of any profession. I also won't dispute there are racial biases among cops, just as there among all people, including minorities. This has been shown in many studies and I have no reason to doubt the findings.
But how does this play into the use of lethal force by police? When is it justified?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Sept 30, 2016 13:24:14 GMT -5
It was in response to what milee said about white males having far different experiences to black males when dealing with law enforcement. No cop should be goading anyone into a fight or looking for a reason to arrest them but the reality is that cops handle minorities differently and are more likely to question them, particularly black males. In an ideal world they shouldn't look at you and think you're a suspect because of the color of your skin rather they should only take an interest in you if you're doing something suspicious or match a description of someone the're looking for. Whatever the color of your skin is a cop shouldn't abuse his power and act like an ass because they can.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 30, 2016 13:32:32 GMT -5
I think some people just don't have a realistic view of policing. it's often not pretty, and to take down tough criminals you got to be equally tough. But I can see how police officers could benefit from better training in recognizing and dealing with metal illness and personal crises.
Plus, I think some people need to take a step back and not play Monday Morning Quarterback. Being a police officer requires you to make split second decisions and snap judgments, and it's all too easy to point fingers weeks later when all the facts are known. You have to make an evaluation if the police officer's actions were reasonable under the circumstances with the given information. Why is your view of policing more realistic than anyone else's?
And your post sounds a lot like people who are unhappy with some seemingly unjustified police shootings need to just STFU about it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 30, 2016 13:33:51 GMT -5
My argument would primarily be that I hold police officers to a higher standard than I do the general public. If you have someone pull a gun on you in public, I think you have every right as a citizen to shoot them in the head. If you see someone acting suspiciously and making a sudden movement to their pocket, I don't believe you as a citizen have a right to shoot them in the head "just in case" because you were scared if you didn't they'd kill you.
They can definitely trust their judgment...but we can't pretend that just because they qualify to be cops that means they have GOOD judgment. I expect more from them than a regular citizen...so if it's not a scenario in which a regular citizen isn't justified in using lethal force, I don't believe police officers should be able to either (morally speaking, not necessarily legally, as I may have different views on when a citizen can use lethal force than what specific laws dictate).
To me this is an apples to oranges comparison. If I see someone acting suspiciously in public I generally wouldn't get involved unless they were threatening or doing harm to someone else. Otherwise that's when you call the cops and let them handle it. If someone is poking around my property, I come up and ask what they're doing and they make a movement like going for a gun or knife that has me fear for my life then depending on the state I can justifiably defend myself with force. Cops don't generally just come up on people and start shooting. They announce themselves, tell the suspect to take their hands out of their pocket and/or drop what they're holding, get down on the ground face down and put their hands behind their back. If you ignore those instructions and threaten them then that's when they have to decide in a split second whether or not they respond with force. When they respond they're doing so to protect themselves but also knowing that if a suspect has a weapon and injures or kills them then the suspect can do harm to others too. The key to your statement is "if you threaten them". Reaching into your pocket for a cell phone or wallet isn't threatening anyone (and if it is, then I guess I'm being threatened every day). A simple refusal to follow directions isn't grounds for being murdered. You're not killing someone to protect yourself if they don't actually have a weapon, you're killing them out of FEAR that they are going to do something. That's primarily my argument, that cops shouldn't be allowed to kill someone just because they are fearful of the unknown. We don't allow citizens to do that, nor should we allow police officers. I don't think there's really way to disagree that we're talking about killing someone out of fear of the unknown in that kind of situation, the question is whether they should be allowed to kill someone based on fear of the unknown. I'm not for prosecuting anyone who kills someone who ends up actually going for a gun...but you'd better be sure enough about it that you'd risk your freedom on it...just like the rest of the population does. Your scenario of someone poking around your property doesn't really hold here IMO. We're not talking about a criminal poking around a police officer's property...nor are we talking about the legalities of when you're allowed kill someone doing it in a specific state, morality and legality aren't the same thing. I would argue from a morality standpoint that someone "poking around your property" shouldn't be killed just because they make sudden movements either.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 30, 2016 13:35:28 GMT -5
How about instead of wondering when it is OK for police to use deadly force, why don't we worry about when it is OK to comply with police instruction? The answer to that question is ALWAYS. If police are doing something wrong, wait and report it later. COMPLY.
Yes. As I mentioned above, I think part of the reason for these controversial shootings is the suspects aren't doing what they need to do when stopped by police.
Even if the cop is asshole, and you didn't do anything wrong, just shut up, comply, don't be aggressive and keep your hands where they can see them and get it worked out later.
But, obviously none of that advice matters if you're in the throes of mental illness or personal crises, or if you want to commit suicide by cop, which given the behavior of some of the recent suspects who have been shot, I think may have been the case.
I think it's funny that you want to advise people about Monday morning quarterbacking the police while playing armchair psychiatrist.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 30, 2016 13:39:34 GMT -5
A buddy and I were going to grab a bite to eat so we met at a mall and he was going to leave his car there while I drove. Before we could even get out of the parking lot a cop stopped us and told him he couldn't leave his car there while being a condescending ass. Mind you this was a mall parking lot, it was 3 hours before it would get dark, it wasn't full and he parked towards the back which was empty. I'm not saying he was allowed to park there but this cop watched him exit the freeway and pull in to the mall because he was black. If he was white I'd bet it doesn't happen and I know this is a microcosm of what he experiences. He brushed it off like it was nothing because he's dealt with it all his life but I was surprised and bothered by it. I've dealt with asshole cops before, have bit my tongue and followed their instructions but I imagine if I dealt with it more I'd end up in jail sooner or later when they give me crap on a day I just don't feel like dealing with it. I'm not going to argue your point that some cops are jerks, or that there are bad cops out there, just like there are bad people of any profession. I also won't dispute there are racial biases among cops, just as there among all people, including minorities. This has been shown in many studies and I have no reason to doubt the findings.
But how does this play into the use of lethal force by police? When is it justified?
How does it play in? Because it certainly seems like there are a lot more minorities being gunned down by cops in scenarios that we aren't seeing white people gunned down.
So to your point about split second decisions...there's a problem when confronting the same scenario when a black suspect gets a split second decision that they're going to be killed and a white person gets a split second decision that they won't. That's why operating on fear rather than facts causes a problem, sometimes fears aren't based in reality, but upon imagination and prejudice.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 30, 2016 13:41:07 GMT -5
My personal feelings are that if an individual has a gun pointed at you/moving it to aim at you, you can use lethal force (not just if they happen to have one...frankly if a suspect has a gun in their hand and you can't shoot them while you're standing there aimed at them before they complete their motion, you might not be someone who should be an officer). Other option would be another kind of weapon within a distance to do serious physical damage (so if they're swinging a bat 2 feet from you, but not if they're swinging a tire iron while standing 40 feet away).
I realize police officers will want far more leeway in terms of using force because frankly, they're scared of the unknown like most of us are (like someone making quick movements with their hands). Part of the job though is keeping your head even when you're scared. You need to be SURE that someone is an immediate and lethal threat before resorting to lethal force, not just that you got scared and decided the best way to deal with your fear was to kill the thing scaring you. Agreed! We are talking about human beings, not spiders.
By the time you see if what the person is drawing is a gun it's too late. You can make the argument that they signed up for the job to put their lives on the line, but I think cops have a right to see their families at the end of the day too.
As I said, I think if anyone makes a sudden move for what may or may not be a weapon, lethal force is justified. When it comes to drawing weapons, you often don't get a second chance.
No one is suggesting they don't. I hate when people start down this path, it's patently ridiculous. No one here is saying that cops should die just because. I would argue that everyone who is not posing an imminent threat has the right to live to see their families another day. Cops do not own this right MORE than other human beings.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 30, 2016 13:43:27 GMT -5
I think some people just don't have a realistic view of policing. it's often not pretty, and to take down tough criminals you got to be equally tough. But I can see how police officers could benefit from better training in recognizing and dealing with metal illness and personal crises.
Plus, I think some people need to take a step back and not play Monday Morning Quarterback. Being a police officer requires you to make split second decisions and snap judgments, and it's all too easy to point fingers weeks later when all the facts are known. You have to make an evaluation if the police officer's actions were reasonable under the circumstances with the given information. Why is your view of policing more realistic than anyone else's?
And your post sounds a lot like people who are unhappy with some seemingly unjustified police shootings need to just STFU about it.
I've stated my opinion on when police force is justified (i.e. when the suspect makes sudden, aggressive moves or reaches suddenly for something that could be a weapon.)
Given that lens, it shouldn't be surprising I think many of the recent shootings were justified, given the known facts.
If I wanted people to "STFU" about it, I wouldn't have started this thread and asked for opinions. Maybe some people do, but I don't start threads just to "hear" myself talk.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Sept 30, 2016 13:49:17 GMT -5
Why is your view of policing more realistic than anyone else's?
And your post sounds a lot like people who are unhappy with some seemingly unjustified police shootings need to just STFU about it.
I've stated my opinion on when police force is justified (i.e. when the suspect makes sudden, aggressive moves or reaches suddenly for something that could be a weapon.)
Given that lens, it shouldn't be surprising I think many of the recent shootings were justified, given the known facts.
If I wanted people to "STFU" about it, I wouldn't have started this thread and asked for opinions. Maybe some people do, but I don't start threads just to "hear" myself talk.
Yes, I saw your opinion, and it wasn't related to my comment. I'm interested in why you think OTHER people have an unrealistic view of police work? And why THEY should stop Monday morning quarterbacking it. But you believe yourself to have a more realistic view? And are free to Monday morning quarterback the behavior of anyone who has been involved in a police shooting under circumstances you probably haven't been in. I'm curious as to the reasoning.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 30, 2016 13:49:48 GMT -5
Why is your view of policing more realistic than anyone else's?
And your post sounds a lot like people who are unhappy with some seemingly unjustified police shootings need to just STFU about it.
I've stated my opinion on when police force is justified (i.e. when the suspect makes sudden, aggressive moves or reaches suddenly for something that could be a weapon.)
Given that lens, it shouldn't be surprising I think many of the recent shootings were justified, given the known facts.
If I wanted people to "STFU" about it, I wouldn't have started this thread and asked for opinions. Maybe some people do, but I don't start threads just to "hear" myself talk.
What do you consider "aggressive moves"? Taking the "possible weapon" thing out of it since you've kind of addressed that separately. Is it ok to use lethal force if you're standing 30 feet away and I suddenly start throwing punches in your direction?
Is it ok to use lethal force against someone not doing any of those things, but who simply won't follow instructions? For example, I'm standing in the middle of the street with a knife in my hand...is there any point where I simply refuse to drop the knife where it's ok to shoot?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Sept 30, 2016 14:10:38 GMT -5
A buddy and I were going to grab a bite to eat so we met at a mall and he was going to leave his car there while I drove. Before we could even get out of the parking lot a cop stopped us and told him he couldn't leave his car there while being a condescending ass. Mind you this was a mall parking lot, it was 3 hours before it would get dark, it wasn't full and he parked towards the back which was empty. I'm not saying he was allowed to park there but this cop watched him exit the freeway and pull in to the mall because he was black. If he was white I'd bet it doesn't happen and I know this is a microcosm of what he experiences. He brushed it off like it was nothing because he's dealt with it all his life but I was surprised and bothered by it. I've dealt with asshole cops before, have bit my tongue and followed their instructions but I imagine if I dealt with it more I'd end up in jail sooner or later when they give me crap on a day I just don't feel like dealing with it. How do you know this was because of his race? Maybe the cop was just a jerk or had gotten lots of complaints for help from the mall owner. I say this because something somewhat similar happened to me in college. I drove to a mall with a friend and we were followed all the way into the parking lot and into a parking spot (we were going to shop at the mall) by a police officer. I didn't notice him following us until we got out of the car and started walking (I didn't use my rearview mirror much in those days). We then noticed his stopped car next to the back of mine. He says he was following us because "my tags are expired". Except they aren't expired. Was he following us because we were white? Because we were in an old van in a posh part of town? Who knows? He verifies the tags are current and moves along. As humans, we often like to assume the worst about someone else's intentions (They didn't like me because I have frizzy hair, or had red shoes, etc) even though it may have nothing to do with that. One thing that I think is not considered during these arguments is that the police and the "suspect/victim" are not on the same level in these interactions. What I mean by that is that the victim knows exactly who the officer is (You know it's a cop, know he is armed, etc). The officer usually knows either NOTHING or very little about the victim. So when being told to "assume the best about the victim and not think they are reaching for a gun", that's not reasonable. The officer doesn't know if this is someone getting their phone, someone high on drugs, a killer, someone in a mental health episode, etc. They are starting from a disadvantage. Sometimes, it is even worse if someone called into 911 that the victim is threatening people/violent/etc. Then they have to assume the person is a threat, as the 911 caller has already felt threatened. This is even worse when the caller is family/friends. If the victim is a threat to their family/friends/neighbors, why would you assume that they wouldn't be a threat to a faceless police officer that they don't know?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Sept 30, 2016 14:39:39 GMT -5
To me this is an apples to oranges comparison. If I see someone acting suspiciously in public I generally wouldn't get involved unless they were threatening or doing harm to someone else. Otherwise that's when you call the cops and let them handle it. If someone is poking around my property, I come up and ask what they're doing and they make a movement like going for a gun or knife that has me fear for my life then depending on the state I can justifiably defend myself with force. Cops don't generally just come up on people and start shooting. They announce themselves, tell the suspect to take their hands out of their pocket and/or drop what they're holding, get down on the ground face down and put their hands behind their back. If you ignore those instructions and threaten them then that's when they have to decide in a split second whether or not they respond with force. When they respond they're doing so to protect themselves but also knowing that if a suspect has a weapon and injures or kills them then the suspect can do harm to others too. The key to your statement is "if you threaten them". Reaching into your pocket for a cell phone or wallet isn't threatening anyone (and if it is, then I guess I'm being threatened every day). A simple refusal to follow directions isn't grounds for being murdered. You're not killing someone to protect yourself if they don't actually have a weapon, you're killing them out of FEAR that they are going to do something. That's primarily my argument, that cops shouldn't be allowed to kill someone just because they are fearful of the unknown. We don't allow citizens to do that, nor should we allow police officers. I don't think there's really way to disagree that we're talking about killing someone out of fear of the unknown in that kind of situation, the question is whether they should be allowed to kill someone based on fear of the unknown. I'm not for prosecuting anyone who kills someone who ends up actually going for a gun...but you'd better be sure enough about it that you'd risk your freedom on it...just like the rest of the population does. Your scenario of someone poking around your property doesn't really hold here IMO. We're not talking about a criminal poking around a police officer's property...nor are we talking about the legalities of when you're allowed kill someone doing it in a specific state, morality and legality aren't the same thing. I would argue from a morality standpoint that someone "poking around your property" shouldn't be killed just because they make sudden movements either.
We'll just agree to disagree because now you're trying to compare you having your hands in your pocket during the day to someone ignoring the instructions of cops who don't know if that person has a gun, their cell phone or just their hand in their pocket. As multiple people on this thread have discussed when a cop tells you to do something your best bet is to listen because 99.9999999999% of the time if you follow instructions you'll live to see another sunrise. The 50 year old poster who was pulled over with her husband had a cop coming up to her car that doesn't know what they have in there and if he can't see their hands and they don't follow his instructions you can bet he's ready to draw his weapon. Cops have to be fearful of the unknown when they give instructions that are ignored because the assumption is if you're not listening there's a reason. I got pulled over with a buddy when we were 21 in his car because he hadn't renewed his registration so we got pulled out of the car while one cop played good cop and the other bad cop. The bad cop tore his car apart, literally tore the door panels off while the good cop told us the reason they're searching is because when people don't renew it's usually because they have a warrant or something to hide. Point is for a cop being skeptical comes with the territory when people don't follow the laws and rules. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback after the fact but in that moment if they fear for their lives there's unfortunately only one way to react and it's not like a cop movie where they shoot the guy in the arm to disarm him they're taught to shoot center mass.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Sept 30, 2016 14:48:00 GMT -5
A buddy and I were going to grab a bite to eat so we met at a mall and he was going to leave his car there while I drove. Before we could even get out of the parking lot a cop stopped us and told him he couldn't leave his car there while being a condescending ass. Mind you this was a mall parking lot, it was 3 hours before it would get dark, it wasn't full and he parked towards the back which was empty. I'm not saying he was allowed to park there but this cop watched him exit the freeway and pull in to the mall because he was black. If he was white I'd bet it doesn't happen and I know this is a microcosm of what he experiences. He brushed it off like it was nothing because he's dealt with it all his life but I was surprised and bothered by it. I've dealt with asshole cops before, have bit my tongue and followed their instructions but I imagine if I dealt with it more I'd end up in jail sooner or later when they give me crap on a day I just don't feel like dealing with it. How do you know this was because of his race? Maybe the cop was just a jerk or had gotten lots of complaints for help from the mall owner. I say this because something somewhat similar happened to me in college. I drove to a mall with a friend and we were followed all the way into the parking lot and into a parking spot (we were going to shop at the mall) by a police officer. I didn't notice him following us until we got out of the car and started walking (I didn't use my rearview mirror much in those days). We then noticed his stopped car next to the back of mine. He says he was following us because "my tags are expired". Except they aren't expired. Was he following us because we were white? Because we were in an old van in a posh part of town? Who knows? He verifies the tags are current and moves along. As humans, we often like to assume the worst about someone else's intentions (They didn't like me because I have frizzy hair, or had red shoes, etc) even though it may have nothing to do with that. My assumption is because I was born and raised here in a beach city that has mostly White, Asian and Hispanic residents while you'd need to go a little north to find a larger black population. The few times we went downtown with my black friend the cops definitely noticed us or rather him as opposed to the hundreds of times they didn't look at us twice when everyone in the group was white. My assumption very well could be wrong but over the years I noticed we were more likely to draw attention or get talked to by cops no matter where we went when my black friend was with us. We went to a club once and they thought someone in our group of ~10 people sitting at two tables had drugs and the only person security dragged away and questioned for an hour was him.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 30, 2016 15:07:22 GMT -5
I read about that case. Apparently, the cops thought the autistic man had a gun and was threatening the health care worker with it (the autistic man had a toy car). The cop that fired his weapon meant to shoot the autistic guy and ironically missed and hit the health care worker instead. This despite the healthcare worker pleading with the cops and with the autistic man to lay down on the ground. There was also a neighbor down the street who had binoculars who saw what the autistic man had in his hand and who came running down the street trying to tell the police that the autistic man was unarmed - the cop guarding the periphery of the scene told the neighbor to back off and ignored what he was trying to say.
This is why more training is so important. There are lots of reasons people may not respond to what a cop says - autism, dementia, mental health issues, language issues. Even someone with a diabetic problem can seem confused and nonresponsive. It's not acceptable to shoot everyone just because they don't immediately do what the cop says to do - the person in question has to be an immediate threat to the officer or someone else, and if they aren't, the cop needs to know how to de-escalate the situation and recognize when someone is having mental or physical issues.
If this was truly the case, why was the man they shot handcuffed and left bleeding? I don't buy it. BTW....the person calling the event in and the worker BOTH said the autistic man had a toy truck in his hand. You'll have to ask the cops why they handcuffed the guy they shot and let him lay there bleeding - the guy was laying face down on the road with his hands over his head and got shot anyway. Whether they meant to shoot the autistic kid and missed or whether they meant to shoot a guy laying prone on the ground with both hands up in surrender, neither scenario looks good for the cops....
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 30, 2016 15:20:02 GMT -5
Why is your view of policing more realistic than anyone else's?
And your post sounds a lot like people who are unhappy with some seemingly unjustified police shootings need to just STFU about it.
I've stated my opinion on when police force is justified (i.e. when the suspect makes sudden, aggressive moves or reaches suddenly for something that could be a weapon.)
Given that lens, it shouldn't be surprising I think many of the recent shootings were justified, given the known facts.
If I wanted people to "STFU" about it, I wouldn't have started this thread and asked for opinions. Maybe some people do, but I don't start threads just to "hear" myself talk.
Most of the rest of us don't think in terms of 'what am I doing that might appear to be threatening.'
So if I get stopped on the street by a cop and he asks me for an ID and I reach into my purse to pull out my wallet like I do - oh - maybe 20 times every day- and the cop thinks I might be reaching for a gun, he's justified in shooting me because, in his mind, me reaching into my purse might be reaching for a weapon?
Here's the thing - I'm a white middle age woman who looks as threatening as toast. 99.9% of the time, a cop is not going to consider me reaching into my purse 'maybe reaching for a gun.' But if I was a young black male who had his ID in his backpack and a cop stops and asks him for his ID and he reaches into his backpack to get it and gets shot, are we going to shrug and say the kid had it coming for making it look as though he might be reaching for a weapon?
So we're ok saying that young black men have to rise to a higher standard than the rest of us when interacting with police? Maybe lay prone on the ground and tell the cop to please reach into his backpack for him to get his ID so the cop won't feel threatened and shoot him?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 30, 2016 15:28:21 GMT -5
Why is your view of policing more realistic than anyone else's?
And your post sounds a lot like people who are unhappy with some seemingly unjustified police shootings need to just STFU about it.
I've stated my opinion on when police force is justified (i.e. when the suspect makes sudden, aggressive moves or reaches suddenly for something that could be a weapon.)
Given that lens, it shouldn't be surprising I think many of the recent shootings were justified, given the known facts.
If I wanted people to "STFU" about it, I wouldn't have started this thread and asked for opinions. Maybe some people do, but I don't start threads just to "hear" myself talk.
Thank you. We already have a poster like that. Ugh
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 30, 2016 15:47:34 GMT -5
The key to your statement is "if you threaten them". Reaching into your pocket for a cell phone or wallet isn't threatening anyone (and if it is, then I guess I'm being threatened every day). A simple refusal to follow directions isn't grounds for being murdered. You're not killing someone to protect yourself if they don't actually have a weapon, you're killing them out of FEAR that they are going to do something. That's primarily my argument, that cops shouldn't be allowed to kill someone just because they are fearful of the unknown. We don't allow citizens to do that, nor should we allow police officers. I don't think there's really way to disagree that we're talking about killing someone out of fear of the unknown in that kind of situation, the question is whether they should be allowed to kill someone based on fear of the unknown. I'm not for prosecuting anyone who kills someone who ends up actually going for a gun...but you'd better be sure enough about it that you'd risk your freedom on it...just like the rest of the population does. Your scenario of someone poking around your property doesn't really hold here IMO. We're not talking about a criminal poking around a police officer's property...nor are we talking about the legalities of when you're allowed kill someone doing it in a specific state, morality and legality aren't the same thing. I would argue from a morality standpoint that someone "poking around your property" shouldn't be killed just because they make sudden movements either.
We'll just agree to disagree because now you're trying to compare you having your hands in your pocket during the day to someone ignoring the instructions of cops who don't know if that person has a gun, their cell phone or just their hand in their pocket. As multiple people on this thread have discussed when a cop tells you to do something your best bet is to listen because 99.9999999999% of the time if you follow instructions you'll live to see another sunrise. The 50 year old poster who was pulled over with her husband had a cop coming up to her car that doesn't know what they have in there and if he can't see their hands and they don't follow his instructions you can bet he's ready to draw his weapon. Cops have to be fearful of the unknown when they give instructions that are ignored because the assumption is if you're not listening there's a reason. I got pulled over with a buddy when we were 21 in his car because he hadn't renewed his registration so we got pulled out of the car while one cop played good cop and the other bad cop. The bad cop tore his car apart, literally tore the door panels off while the good cop told us the reason they're searching is because when people don't renew it's usually because they have a warrant or something to hide. Point is for a cop being skeptical comes with the territory when people don't follow the laws and rules. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback after the fact but in that moment if they fear for their lives there's unfortunately only one way to react and it's not like a cop movie where they shoot the guy in the arm to disarm him they're taught to shoot center mass. Wow, my husband was once pulled over for an expired registration and all the officer did was give him a warning/deadline to get it renewed.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 30, 2016 16:53:51 GMT -5
The key to your statement is "if you threaten them". Reaching into your pocket for a cell phone or wallet isn't threatening anyone (and if it is, then I guess I'm being threatened every day). A simple refusal to follow directions isn't grounds for being murdered. You're not killing someone to protect yourself if they don't actually have a weapon, you're killing them out of FEAR that they are going to do something. That's primarily my argument, that cops shouldn't be allowed to kill someone just because they are fearful of the unknown. We don't allow citizens to do that, nor should we allow police officers. I don't think there's really way to disagree that we're talking about killing someone out of fear of the unknown in that kind of situation, the question is whether they should be allowed to kill someone based on fear of the unknown. I'm not for prosecuting anyone who kills someone who ends up actually going for a gun...but you'd better be sure enough about it that you'd risk your freedom on it...just like the rest of the population does. Your scenario of someone poking around your property doesn't really hold here IMO. We're not talking about a criminal poking around a police officer's property...nor are we talking about the legalities of when you're allowed kill someone doing it in a specific state, morality and legality aren't the same thing. I would argue from a morality standpoint that someone "poking around your property" shouldn't be killed just because they make sudden movements either.
We'll just agree to disagree because now you're trying to compare you having your hands in your pocket during the day to someone ignoring the instructions of cops who don't know if that person has a gun, their cell phone or just their hand in their pocket. As multiple people on this thread have discussed when a cop tells you to do something your best bet is to listen because 99.9999999999% of the time if you follow instructions you'll live to see another sunrise. The 50 year old poster who was pulled over with her husband had a cop coming up to her car that doesn't know what they have in there and if he can't see their hands and they don't follow his instructions you can bet he's ready to draw his weapon. Cops have to be fearful of the unknown when they give instructions that are ignored because the assumption is if you're not listening there's a reason. I got pulled over with a buddy when we were 21 in his car because he hadn't renewed his registration so we got pulled out of the car while one cop played good cop and the other bad cop. The bad cop tore his car apart, literally tore the door panels off while the good cop told us the reason they're searching is because when people don't renew it's usually because they have a warrant or something to hide. Point is for a cop being skeptical comes with the territory when people don't follow the laws and rules. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback after the fact but in that moment if they fear for their lives there's unfortunately only one way to react and it's not like a cop movie where they shoot the guy in the arm to disarm him they're taught to shoot center mass. Yes, when a cop tells you to do something, your best bet is to listen and follow the instructions. The point we disagree on is whether ignoring the police officer means they just get free range to murder you or not.
I agree with you, cops have to be fearful of the unknown. My point is that being fearful is not justification for killing someone...particularly if you're a police officer.
You're wrong in that if people fear for their lives there's only one way to react. You can react rationally, or you can react irrationally. I'm sure LOTS of police officers fear for their lives on very mundane calls. There are plenty of testimonials from cops who say they fear for their life a bit every time they pull someone over because you never know who that person is or what they may be thinking (or what they've just done that may be criminal). Being fearful doesn't justify murder, particularly if you just happen to be really fearful of black people but not fearful at all of white people. Being fearful is fine, not all actions are justified just because someone is filled with fear though.
The argument of "Monday morning quarterbacking" is a red herring. That's like saying we can't prosecute people who commit crimes because we don't know what it was like "in that moment". This is precisely the problem with all the black men being murdered by police officers in this country, some people actually believe that "I was scared" is a justification for murder if you happen to have a job as a police officer. We don't allow our own soldiers in a war zone the same freedom to murder whomever they come across the way we allow it for police officers in our country against our own citizens...that's a really scary proposition.
Speaking of how there's only one way to react when you're scared...given how many black men are being murdered by cops...are they justified in killing cops when confronted because they fear for their lives? That's really the problem with saying that cops are allowed to kill someone because they're scared for their lives...lots of us can be scared for our lives, but we're not allowed to murder someone because of it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 30, 2016 17:21:43 GMT -5
You know what? If you're pulled over or stopped in the street, do what you're told and I'll bet nothing happens to you. There's going to be a few instances but all these idiots who run feral thanks to their lack of upbringing come to a well deserved bad end. I'm grateful they're stopped permanently before they hurt anyone else. Isn't it amazing that these " innocent" people all were obeying the police orders and ended up dead? Or maybe not, huh?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 30, 2016 17:26:53 GMT -5
Many who run/try to escape from the police do so because they have outstanding arrest warrants.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 2, 2016 8:04:54 GMT -5
I don't remember the Police routinely gunning people down when i was a kid. I do agree though, that the times we live in have changed, there is much more rampant drug use and people seem to be more unpredictable. However, I carry a gun. Especially when i travel. I have had someone try to run me off the road one time at 5am when i was driving to work. And, I forgot to bring my gun. Now, i won't travel without it. So, lots of people "have guns". And apparently now that gives the Police a right to shoot you.
All the Police have to say is "I THOUGHT they had a gun" or they "resisted arrest" and they automatically are given a pass. We have lost all common sense. Do you really need to strangle an unarmed man selling loose cigarrettes on the street? Do they need to kill someone over a traffic stop? What about the elderly, the mentally ill, children? God help them when they don't IMMEDIATELY understand whatever command they are screaming at them at the top of the their lungs.
Then, they taser someone and scream commands at them and then when they don't "comply" because they can't because they have just been tasered, they taser them again and again. Are they so poorly trained that they don't understand that? I saw one video where they were called for a mentally ill NAKED woman who was acting out, screaming or whatever and they attacked and killed this naked mentally ill woman. Where was the threat there? There are a lot of very egregious examples that should concern everyone.
On the other hand Michael Brown got his just desserts. He punched and attacked a cop. He deserved to get shot. So, did a lot of the other cases where they are burning down cities.
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