cael
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Post by cael on Jul 16, 2016 21:34:37 GMT -5
My husband is like, one semester short of an associate's degree, in hospitality management. He works for a caterer as a dining room manager, and makes $20/hour. He constantly complains about stuff and is always slightly to moderately tired and/or stressed, but will tell you without missing a beat that he loves the business. He's a real people person, has the energy for the multi tasking needed and manages people well - the owners of his company love him. If he's smart about it I see him going far in the hospitality/events/catering business, with or without finishing the degree (obviously preferably finishing it).
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 17, 2016 10:01:48 GMT -5
Except for the dodging bullets and bombs on a near daily basis.... Does every recruit spend time in an active war zone - like for their whole career? I'll admit I have little knowledge of how it all works - but if I had to make a guesstimate on how it MIGHT work - there's probably plenty of military 'jobs' that do not involve daily dodging of bullets and bombs. IDK, I've been exposed to a couple of about to retire military guys (one did mostly 'construction' type stuff and the other had a "desk job" type job with the Navy (he did spend a lot of years at sea in his younger years- but the last decade not so much) - he did something with 'supplies' moving them around/making sure stuff got where it needed to be. I wasn't able to ask a lot of questions and this is what I gleaned from the conversations. Yes, being in the military/navy had a lot of sucky parts over the years but both guys seemed pretty happy with their over all career and were both glad to be 'retiring' at 55yo or younger. I think both were planning to go on to civilian type jobs. I've never actually served, but I work for the DOD and have spent a lot of my career around and talking to active duty military. From what I've seen, it's relatively rare to meet people that have actually beeen deployed to war zones in an infantry capcity (i.e. dodging bullets). There are lots of jobs that don't involve actually fighting in the infantry. Just about any job you can imagine, the military has it. And if you got the smarts for it, they can train you in any number of skills. Which is good, because a lot of employers don't really invest in training anymore.
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daisy
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Post by daisy on Jul 17, 2016 12:51:21 GMT -5
My ex (52) was part of the 'lucky' generation. No college degree, started sweeping floors of a transmission shop and now runs the whole place - the owner recognizes his abilities and leaves him in charge 364 1/2 days a year. He makes well over $100k - but what burns me is that when the previous owner retired, he offered the business to ex and me when we were still married and young enough to finance it... Ex freaked out and decided he wanted to stay an employee forever...UGH Only one of the main issues in our marriage. It super burns because the guy who bought it and now owns it is an absentee, alcoholic owner who STILL gets the $$$$$$$$$ profits that ex and I would have gotten because ex is the guy who does all the work and makes the money! Funny that ex didn't want to 'run his own business' and now runs this one...and I went on to own MY own business and it's not half as difficult as ex thought it would be all those years ago. Sigh I am about two classes away from an Associate's degree myself -the only one in my family without a Master's - guess that makes me the black sheep.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 17, 2016 13:48:22 GMT -5
I had an ex-boyfriend that was a plumbers apprentice. He didn't have a degree. I don't know if he ever ended up being a plumber, though. There are other trades, like carpentry that you can apprentice with. I think eventually when you have enough work experience, you make 40K or so. Management roles will push your income up. According to indeed, foremen can make 75K or so. Or, many trades people go into business for themselves and make very good livings. Another opportunity is auto mechanics. The independent shop I use when a repair is bigger than I can handle charges $104 an hour for labor. And they are quite a bit cheaper than the local car dealers. Throw in the mark up on parts, and you have a pretty good income opportunity. Even after you pay expenses and overhead.
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msventoux
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Post by msventoux on Jul 17, 2016 15:45:05 GMT -5
Being flexible on where you live and keeping funds set aside to move are also a huge help. My relatives have managed to stay employed by being willing to work shifts at remote locations. They've also been able to pack up and move to different states and countries as necessary to follow their industries. Family friends weren't so flexible and haven't fared well at all the last few years.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 17, 2016 23:42:42 GMT -5
My cousins wife started out as cashier at Publix and has worked there 30 years. She is front end manager. She makes good money but also has a large amount of company stock. She is very happy working there. Definitely. I'm just guessing that had she been male, in 30 years time she would have been at a much higher level than front end manager, which is just a small step up from head cashier. After 30 years, she could be a regional manager for example. One of my redneck neighbors growing up had started as a bag boy and was a store manager after 10 years and trust me, he was no prize... A former neighbour of my parents had that happen. Most of it was going on while I was a kid, so I only remember bits and pieces but she was passed over for promotions a lot, always losing out to men. I think the straw that made her leave was publix hiring outside even though they claim to promote within. Definitely gave me pause in deciding whether to apply to them for a job. I believe she was working in the corporate offices not in a store.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 18, 2016 6:48:01 GMT -5
Definitely. I'm just guessing that had she been male, in 30 years time she would have been at a much higher level than front end manager, which is just a small step up from head cashier. After 30 years, she could be a regional manager for example. One of my redneck neighbors growing up had started as a bag boy and was a store manager after 10 years and trust me, he was no prize... A former neighbour of my parents had that happen. Most of it was going on while I was a kid, so I only remember bits and pieces but she was passed over for promotions a lot, always losing out to men. I think the straw that made her leave was publix hiring outside even though they claim to promote within. Definitely gave me pause in deciding whether to apply to them for a job. I believe she was working in the corporate offices not in a store. They do promote from within - if you're male. And this may be changing over time. I just know that growing up I knew several men (none of whom were great guys or especially appealing) who had worked their way up through Publix but the women we knew that worked there were perpetually cashiers. You could even see it at the stores. A lot of the women who were ringing up your groceries had been with Publix for decades; you didn't see the same thing with the men... the nice man who had run the butcher counter moved on to be assistant store manager. The friendly produce guy was now a store manager at another store, etc. But the biggest thing to happen to the women was "head cashier" or working the front/courtesy desk. My guess is that it wasn't necessarily overt discrimination of the stereotypical type; it wasn't a bunch of guys saying "no way can a woman do this work" or "we're not working with any girls". It was back to that (repeatedly proven through multiple studies) inner reaction people have where they interpret the exact same actions differently depending on if the person doing the action is a man or a woman. When Betty the cashier suggests a change in how to schedule cashiers for better coverage during busy times, Betty is "difficult" and needs to "learn to be a team player." When Bob in produce suggests a change in how to schedule produce deliveries for more efficient receiving, Bob is "innovative" and a "problem solver." When Joan the cashier sees another cashier making an error in how to ring coupons and shows the other cashier how the coupons need to be processed for payment, Joan is "bossy." When John the butcher notices another butcher cutting meat into sizes that are difficult to sell and shows the other butcher how to make appealing cuts that sell well, he is a "leader." And it gets back to people's expectations. Up until very recently, when people thought "store manager", they thought middle aged guy. So Bob and John looked like they fit the part. Betty and Joan? Not so much.
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ohmomto2boys
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Post by ohmomto2boys on Jul 18, 2016 7:04:31 GMT -5
I don't have a college degree. I have stayed with the same company for over 24 years. Started as the receptionist. Now I handle HR and accounting. If I worked full-time, my salary would be $57,000. However, I only work part-time - which is fine with me. Flexibility is the most important benefit of my job. I do get paid vacation, personal time and 401k.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jul 18, 2016 9:05:18 GMT -5
A former neighbour of my parents had that happen. Most of it was going on while I was a kid, so I only remember bits and pieces but she was passed over for promotions a lot, always losing out to men. I think the straw that made her leave was publix hiring outside even though they claim to promote within. Definitely gave me pause in deciding whether to apply to them for a job. I believe she was working in the corporate offices not in a store. They do promote from within - if you're male. And this may be changing over time. I just know that growing up I knew several men (none of whom were great guys or especially appealing) who had worked their way up through Publix but the women we knew that worked there were perpetually cashiers. You could even see it at the stores. A lot of the women who were ringing up your groceries had been with Publix for decades; you didn't see the same thing with the men... the nice man who had run the butcher counter moved on to be assistant store manager. The friendly produce guy was now a store manager at another store, etc. But the biggest thing to happen to the women was "head cashier" or working the front/courtesy desk. My guess is that it wasn't necessarily overt discrimination of the stereotypical type; it wasn't a bunch of guys saying "no way can a woman do this work" or "we're not working with any girls". It was back to that (repeatedly proven through multiple studies) inner reaction people have where they interpret the exact same actions differently depending on if the person doing the action is a man or a woman. When Betty the cashier suggests a change in how to schedule cashiers for better coverage during busy times, Betty is "difficult" and needs to "learn to be a team player." When Bob in produce suggests a change in how to schedule produce deliveries for more efficient receiving, Bob is "innovative" and a "problem solver." When Joan the cashier sees another cashier making an error in how to ring coupons and shows the other cashier how the coupons need to be processed for payment, Joan is "bossy." When John the butcher notices another butcher cutting meat into sizes that are difficult to sell and shows the other butcher how to make appealing cuts that sell well, he is a "leader." And it gets back to people's expectations. Up until very recently, when people thought "store manager", they thought middle aged guy. So Bob and John looked like they fit the part. Betty and Joan? Not so much. Well not everyone wants to be in Management. There may be some gender expectations going on , but my cousins wife is perfectly happy where she is. And she is perfectly happy with all the stock she owns. My cousin is a carpenter and is plenty happy to put in a hard days work and get his paycheck without any added responsibility.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 18, 2016 9:16:15 GMT -5
I think a lot of us assume that everyone wants to be in upper management, but that's not true. Maybe those women were fine being cashiers for 20 odd years?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 18, 2016 9:34:04 GMT -5
I think a lot of us assume that everyone wants to be in upper management, but that's not true. Maybe those women were fine being cashiers for 20 odd years? Sure. Exactly like all women want to have kids and stay home with them. It's not discrimination, it's natural selection. Just like how black people commit more crimes, right?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 18, 2016 9:44:40 GMT -5
I think a lot of us assume that everyone wants to be in upper management, but that's not true. Maybe those women were fine being cashiers for 20 odd years? Sure. Exactly like all women want to have kids and stay home with them. It's not discrimination, it's natural selection. Just like how black people commit more crimes, right? You've been posting some really off the wall stuff lately, but this right here takes the cake. It's rather beneath you IMO. Did I say ALL those women? Did I say sexism and sexist practices don't exist? No, I said neither of those things. Some women do want to be in management and there are sexist mentalities that can limit women in the workplace. We deal with this same issue at my employer. How can we get more women into upper (CEO-level) management? They are trying to figure that out. Meanwhile, those types of jobs require you to basically be working all the time and travel often on very short notice. That might be okay for a single man, man with family, or a single woman.... but women with families might have a harder time adjusting to that lifestyle. They might want to keep roles that allow them a better work/life balance and a more predictable schedule. I know there are women with families that excel in CEO level management, but it is not the norm so far. THAT is what I meant, but I think you knew that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 10:32:02 GMT -5
What do you do, how did you get there, and if you're comfortable, approximately how much money do you make? I didn't finish college and I am a blue collar worker. Physical labor. I did well on a test and was offered 2 totally different jobs initially. I'm glad I eneded up with the one I did. A quick Google search and it seems that my base salary is more than the national median household income. My paycheck looks puny compared to my gross pay. I could get close to 6 figures if I were willing to either work a lot of overtime or play politics well enough to pursue different jobs with my employer. I've worked on different kinds of teams and projects for my employer and kind of related to my employer, where I get to use my brain and other skills, but those things don't necessarily increase my pay. Depends on what it is I'm doing. I just do them because they're interesting, I get to spend my work hours doing something different from my regular job (occasionally I've had to adjust my work hours though) and I get to learn new things. It's decent pay for the LCOLA I live in, enough to live comfortably if you're mindful of your choices, especially for someone with no dependants.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2016 11:27:17 GMT -5
Sure. Exactly like all women want to have kids and stay home with them. It's not discrimination, it's natural selection. Just like how black people commit more crimes, right? You've been posting some really off the wall stuff lately, but this right here takes the cake. It's rather beneath you IMO. Did I say ALL those women? Did I say sexism and sexist practices don't exist? No, I said neither of those things. Some women do want to be in management and there are sexist mentalities that can limit women in the workplace. We deal with this same issue at my employer. How can we get more women into upper (CEO-level) management? They are trying to figure that out. Meanwhile, those types of jobs require you to basically be working all the time and travel often on very short notice. That might be okay for a single man, man with family, or a single woman.... but women with families might have a harder time adjusting to that lifestyle. They might want to keep roles that allow them a better work/life balance and a more predictable schedule. I know there are women with families that excel in CEO level management, but it is not the norm so far. THAT is what I meant, but I think you knew that. Now that I'm a single mom I'm struggling with the juggling act. It was hard enough when I had a partner to help out. I didn't like leaving my kids to travel. I am up for a promotion but it would require me to travel to Canada one week a month indefinitely. I can't do it. Not only that but it is a LOT more hours...ffs, I don't want that at this point in my life. I live in a LCOLA and make a very good salary. I don't need the glory. I don't need more money.
I can also tell you that my ex would not have turned down an opportunity because of his children. He would just walk away from his responsibility without a second thought. In our marriage I was the one who considered the children before anything career wise. I don't know how many women are like me but I know out of my friends that are professionals, I am not in the minority. I also know that there were a few women at my firm that put their careers first but they were definitely the minority. maybe that will change someday.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 18, 2016 11:31:16 GMT -5
A former neighbour of my parents had that happen. Most of it was going on while I was a kid, so I only remember bits and pieces but she was passed over for promotions a lot, always losing out to men. I think the straw that made her leave was publix hiring outside even though they claim to promote within. Definitely gave me pause in deciding whether to apply to them for a job. I believe she was working in the corporate offices not in a store. They do promote from within - if you're male. And this may be changing over time. I just know that growing up I knew several men (none of whom were great guys or especially appealing) who had worked their way up through Publix but the women we knew that worked there were perpetually cashiers. You could even see it at the stores. A lot of the women who were ringing up your groceries had been with Publix for decades; you didn't see the same thing with the men... the nice man who had run the butcher counter moved on to be assistant store manager. The friendly produce guy was now a store manager at another store, etc. But the biggest thing to happen to the women was "head cashier" or working the front/courtesy desk. My guess is that it wasn't necessarily overt discrimination of the stereotypical type; it wasn't a bunch of guys saying "no way can a woman do this work" or "we're not working with any girls". It was back to that (repeatedly proven through multiple studies) inner reaction people have where they interpret the exact same actions differently depending on if the person doing the action is a man or a woman. When Betty the cashier suggests a change in how to schedule cashiers for better coverage during busy times, Betty is "difficult" and needs to "learn to be a team player." When Bob in produce suggests a change in how to schedule produce deliveries for more efficient receiving, Bob is "innovative" and a "problem solver." When Joan the cashier sees another cashier making an error in how to ring coupons and shows the other cashier how the coupons need to be processed for payment, Joan is "bossy." When John the butcher notices another butcher cutting meat into sizes that are difficult to sell and shows the other butcher how to make appealing cuts that sell well, he is a "leader." And it gets back to people's expectations. Up until very recently, when people thought "store manager", they thought middle aged guy. So Bob and John looked like they fit the part. Betty and Joan? Not so much. It is stereotypical discrimination. It might not be some older variety that probably predates our working years, but they kind mentioned above - I think I've seen it almost everywhere I've worked. In addition to that, dress & makeup requirements tend to be stricter on women than men. In social situations, women seem to have more freedom with clothes choices, but in the workplace it appears generally if you don't toe the narrow band of what's acceptable for women in that particular workplace - you will pay for it. It might just be no raises, no promotions, or even the first to be let go. But it will happen. Because women who don't do the right thing seem to be punished way more than men are at work.
My opinion. My experience. FWIW. (And yes I am feeling a bit negative at the moment. )
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jul 18, 2016 11:47:42 GMT -5
My dh and my sister both have 2 degrees--a bachelors in the sciences that are both worthless apparently, Might not the fact that they completed degrees in science subjects and had to demonstrate some measure of understanding of the subject matter have some value as far as a personal accomplishment?
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jul 18, 2016 12:09:34 GMT -5
I think a lot of us assume that everyone wants to be in upper management, but that's not true. Maybe those women were fine being cashiers for 20 odd years? I don't understand why this is even such an issue with some people. My cousin's wife is perfectly happy with her job and perfectly happy with the benefits that she has for working for the same company for 30 years. You can't assume that she was discriminated against just because she is not a store manager. Her husband is a carpenter, never had any desire to go into construction management. My dad was a union sheet metal worker for nearly 40 years. He never wanted to be shop foreman or anything higher than that. He raised a family and has plenty of money in his retirement. And isn't that what this thread is about. People without college degrees who have been successful? Are we only defining success as being CEO? Why can't having a decent paying job for all your life be successful?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 18, 2016 14:02:17 GMT -5
My SO is extremely successful as an estimator without a degree. Great pay and benefits. I would highly recommend a trade for someone who didn't want to get a traditional degree. There were several years of schooling as an apprentice (he originally worked in the field as a high-voltage electrician before transitioning into project management/estimating), but no student loan debt.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 18, 2016 14:07:19 GMT -5
Sure. Exactly like all women want to have kids and stay home with them. It's not discrimination, it's natural selection. Just like how black people commit more crimes, right? You've been posting some really off the wall stuff lately, but this right here takes the cake. It's rather beneath you IMO. Did I say ALL those women? Did I say sexism and sexist practices don't exist? No, I said neither of those things. Some women do want to be in management and there are sexist mentalities that can limit women in the workplace. We deal with this same issue at my employer. How can we get more women into upper (CEO-level) management? They are trying to figure that out. Meanwhile, those types of jobs require you to basically be working all the time and travel often on very short notice. That might be okay for a single man, man with family, or a single woman.... but women with families might have a harder time adjusting to that lifestyle. They might want to keep roles that allow them a better work/life balance and a more predictable schedule. I know there are women with families that excel in CEO level management, but it is not the norm so far. THAT is what I meant, but I think you knew that. I am at the point where I'm fed up with how often I encounter or see sexism and I've decided not to just quietly take it any more. I'm pointing it out. And I'm going to keep pointing it out. And I'm going to be pointing out people who want to explain it away or ignore it because it doesn't directly impact them. And frankly I'm tired of getting lumped in with all the other women. They may want one thing and I may be the only woman on the planet that doesn't want that one thing, but that doesn't mean it's OK to lump me in with them. If you want that same thing or you think sexism doesn't impact you, fine. Take it and do nothing. But I'm not going to any more.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 18, 2016 14:10:25 GMT -5
I think a lot of us assume that everyone wants to be in upper management, but that's not true. Maybe those women were fine being cashiers for 20 odd years? I don't understand why this is even such an issue with some people. My cousin's wife is perfectly happy with her job and perfectly happy with the benefits that she has for working for the same company for 30 years. You can't assume that she was discriminated against just because she is not a store manager. Her husband is a carpenter, never had any desire to go into construction management. My dad was a union sheet metal worker for nearly 40 years. He never wanted to be shop foreman or anything higher than that. He raised a family and has plenty of money in his retirement. And isn't that what this thread is about. People without college degrees who have been successful? Are we only defining success as being CEO? Why can't having a decent paying job for all your life be successful? Exactly. I have a friend who has worked at TJMAXX as long as I have known her - nearly 30 years. She is a cashier at the store, works 10-15 hours/week on top of her job in the research lab she has (with a science degree). She has the job for a few reasons.....one she gets out of the house and gets to deal with people who are not scientists, it is a mindless job where she does not have to think all the time, she gets a decent discount on clothes (which helps, because research salaries suck). For the last 25 years of working here, they have tried to move her into management. She simply does NOT want to do this so she has turned them down dozens of times. That is simply a treadmill she does not want to jump on. In fact, my friend is about ready to retire from her research position, but I suspect she's going to keep working for TJMAXX. They've been pretty good to her and she likes the benefits.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 18, 2016 14:26:22 GMT -5
You've been posting some really off the wall stuff lately, but this right here takes the cake. It's rather beneath you IMO. Did I say ALL those women? Did I say sexism and sexist practices don't exist? No, I said neither of those things. Some women do want to be in management and there are sexist mentalities that can limit women in the workplace. We deal with this same issue at my employer. How can we get more women into upper (CEO-level) management? They are trying to figure that out. Meanwhile, those types of jobs require you to basically be working all the time and travel often on very short notice. That might be okay for a single man, man with family, or a single woman.... but women with families might have a harder time adjusting to that lifestyle. They might want to keep roles that allow them a better work/life balance and a more predictable schedule. I know there are women with families that excel in CEO level management, but it is not the norm so far. THAT is what I meant, but I think you knew that. I am at the point where I'm fed up with how often I encounter or see sexism and I've decided not to just quietly take it any more. I'm pointing it out. And I'm going to keep pointing it out. And I'm going to be pointing out people who want to explain it away or ignore it because it doesn't directly impact them. And frankly I'm tired of getting lumped in with all the other women. They may want one thing and I may be the only woman on the planet that doesn't want that one thing, but that doesn't mean it's OK to lump me in with them. If you want that same thing or you think sexism doesn't impact you, fine. Take it and do nothing. But I'm not going to any more. And it's NOT okay to assume all women want what you want. I think all women - hell, all PEOPLE - should be able to do whatever it is they want to do. Reach for the stars! But if a woman CHOOSES to not progress in her career... if she CHOOSES to stay put... that is her business. Yes, I agree we still have work to do with reducing the amount of sexist assumptions and practices in society. And yes, there are women who can't progress due to unfair circumstances. But you don't get to decide that all women who don't want to be CEOs are somehow a traitor to the cause. Feminism is about choice. You can choose to be a jet setting CEO, middle management, entry level, part time, or SAHS/SAHP. As long as these are actual choices, not a result of discrimination or some other type of manipulation, what they actually do doesn't concern you.
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aprilleigh
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Post by aprilleigh on Jul 18, 2016 14:29:41 GMT -5
I went to college for a few years with the intent of becoming a CPA and taking over my aunt's little CPA firm. Decided I did NOT want to be an accountant ... when I was 22 my husband and I and 2 friends opened a coffee shop, and that's what I was going to do with my life!!, while also still going to school. About 6 months after we opened, my dad asked if I wanted to be the Office Manager at our families business (I'm 3rd generation). I planned to do this until the coffee shop took off, but we ended up closing the shop after a total of 11 months. I was still going to school part-time and working full-time. Then had a baby and slowly petered out of school. I've been here 11 years next month. I work 32 hours a week at $18 an hour. Not great, but I have pretty much all the flexibility I need, and excellent health insurance. And there's talk of me becoming President when my dad retires, but I'm not sure I want to do it.
Husband has only had a handful of college classes. Over the years he has taught himself networking and VOIP and other computery things. 9 years ago, he interviewed at a little start-up VOIP company for a Jr. Network Engineer position. Immediately after he started, the Sr. Engineer quit, so he ended up with both jobs. (Same pay. Ha. And they never did hire a new Jr.) He built crazy computery things and learned crazy new things ... and then 2 years ago the company stretched itself too thin and paychecks stopped coming in time. By this time I think he was making maybe $39 - $40k.... Even though he was super loyal to the guys he worked with, obviously he's not about to work for zero money, so he starts interviewing. Head hunted by Google for several positions, but then they never could find the right one. Got a couple job offers from some great companies, and ended up at one that has several times made the "Top 100 or whatever companies to work for in Oregon" list. Seriously, I ask him like every other week if they need a new office manager! This position pays $72k+ with some pretty awesome perks.
So between the 2 of us, the force behind our success: 1.) Nepotism. 2.) An awesome ability to learn up and coming technology on his own.
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 18, 2016 14:38:08 GMT -5
Two of my sibs never finished college (they went but dropped out) - and long term I believe it hurt both of them. One went into construction, and now lives on SSI with multiple disabilities. At least he has a roof over his head (Section 8, disabled senior housing) and a steady (but very small) income. Without the federal safety net he would be in deep doo-doo. And he's only a few years older than me.
Another sib, same thing - but he went into hospitality. Many (many) hours over many years on his feet has taken their toll. He also had a small business that failed. Because he lacks a degree, the only job he can seem to land is a perpetual entry level/commission-only or commission-heavy type job. A few years back (after the '08 crash) he went to work for a pest company (heavily commission-oriented), and pretty severely hurt his back. After being out of work for almost two years, he went back to entry-level type jobs. He just can't seem to get ahead. These days he's trying to sell insurance and is driving for Lyft. I'm sure he never envisioned himself this way.
My sib who finished college and went to grad school (like me) is doing fine. He recently retired from Microsoft with a cushy net worth (he and his wife are savers; she retired from IBM a few years back to take care of her ailing/aging parents). She's not working but he's working from home - with part-time hours of his choosing, just to stay busy - for a third party vendor who helps clients of all sizes with phone support regarding their Microsoft products. They snapped him up in a heartbeat because of his background, and he totally calls the shots on the hours and days he works.
It's NOT fair, but college grads just seem to have the upper hand in the job market. Many small businesses and labor-type jobs can pay well, but they wear people out too soon. I have so much sympathy for the middle-aged (and older) waitresses of the world . I'm one college degree away from being that person. I have tons of respect and empathy for all the laborers of the world. They are overworked and underpaid.
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milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
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Post by milee on Jul 18, 2016 14:40:12 GMT -5
I am at the point where I'm fed up with how often I encounter or see sexism and I've decided not to just quietly take it any more. I'm pointing it out. And I'm going to keep pointing it out. And I'm going to be pointing out people who want to explain it away or ignore it because it doesn't directly impact them. And frankly I'm tired of getting lumped in with all the other women. They may want one thing and I may be the only woman on the planet that doesn't want that one thing, but that doesn't mean it's OK to lump me in with them. If you want that same thing or you think sexism doesn't impact you, fine. Take it and do nothing. But I'm not going to any more. And it's NOT okay to assume all women want what you want. I think all women - hell, all PEOPLE - should be able to do whatever it is they want to do. Reach for the stars! But if a woman CHOOSES to not progress in her career... if she CHOOSES to stay put... that is her business. Yes, I agree we still have work to do with reducing the amount of sexist assumptions and practices in society. And yes, there are women who can't progress due to unfair circumstances. But you don't get to decide that all women who don't want to be CEOs are somehow a traitor to the cause. Feminism is about choice. You can choose to be a jet setting CEO, middle management, entry level, part time, or SAHS/SAHP. As long as these are actual choices, not a result of discrimination or some other type of manipulation, what they actually do doesn't concern you. If you want to assume that the women weren't promoted because they didn't want to be promoted, then I think you're being naive. My sister worked at Publix for a while and was the first to notice that men got promoted to management and women didn't; she wasn't OK with that. And if you want to look at the numbers involved, I believe you will find that it's a stretch to assume that none of the thousands of women who worked at Publix during the 60s, 70s and early 80s wanted to get promoted and that's why they didn't. Again, we keep saying and assuming things about women that would make people livid if we said the same things about minorities, gay people or any other non-white hetero male population. But somehow it's OK, since it's just women. It's not OK. Nobody would ever look at a company that never hired a single black person and explain it by saying that no black people wanted to work there and they should have the right not to if they don't want to. Ridiculous. One of the primary ways we can see discrimination is hugely unequal disparities in promotion and hiring. And it concerns all of us who are women who don't want to be lumped in with the women who don't want careers; some day you may want one of those management jobs and may not be considered because of the prevailing attitude that as a mother you wouldn't possibly want it. If you want to ignore it, you are welcome to, but I'm not going to any more.
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MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 18, 2016 15:00:52 GMT -5
I feel like you're not reading what I'm saying. I don't know if I can be any clearer, but let me try again:
1. I know there are sexist practices in business, and they must be done away with.
2. Nowhere in anything I posted suggests that none of these women want to be promoted. If I did, let me clarify...some do, but some don't.
3. I'm aware that it's the assumption that women want families that contributes to a culture where women aren't really in upper level management as much as men. However, it may also be that SOME women don't want that level of responsibility because they WOULD actually like to be with their families more. You are implying that those women who don't want as much responsibility are ruining it for everyone else, which is pretty crappy IMO.
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milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
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Post by milee on Jul 18, 2016 15:50:38 GMT -5
I feel like you're not reading what I'm saying. I don't know if I can be any clearer, but let me try again: 1. I know there are sexist practices in business, and they must be done away with. 2. Nowhere in anything I posted suggests that none of these women want to be promoted. If I did, let me clarify...some do, but some don't. 3. I'm aware that it's the assumption that women want families that contributes to a culture where women aren't really in upper level management as much as men. However, it may also be that SOME women don't want that level of responsibility because they WOULD actually like to be with their families more. You are implying that those women who don't want as much responsibility are ruining it for everyone else, which is pretty crappy IMO. And I feel like you're not reading what I'm saying. I don't know if I can be any clearer, but let me try again: 1. I have lived in Florida and shopped at various Publix stores for a total of four decades now. I also know dozens of people who have worked there. In all those decades, my observation and the feedback from people I know that have worked there is that although the corporate culture focused on "promote from within", there were virtually no females in store management until very recently. So you can assume that for decades there were no women that wanted to be promoted (I view this as unlikely) or you can guess that there may have been discrimination. 2. It is not at all commenting one way or the other about women that do not want to be promoted to say that a company's track record of not promoting women appears to be discriminatory. 3. I really don't give a flying fig what any other woman wants in regards to her career because that SHOULD be irrelevant to what I want in mine. But instead, women who get up to apologize for companies that discriminate by saying that women don't want promotions anyway are not helping and should STFU. You don't want a promotion? Fine. Sit quietly and take whatever management tosses you. But don't speak up defending companies that discriminate and screw things up for the women that do.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2016 15:52:47 GMT -5
Hahahaha...Im just glad for once that Im not the one beig attacked in a conversation about women ;-)
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Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 18, 2016 16:06:55 GMT -5
Hahahaha...Im just glad for once that Im not the one beig attacked in a conversation about women ;-) lol....the thread isn't over yet
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 18, 2016 16:07:59 GMT -5
Hahahaha...Im just glad for once that Im not the one beig attacked in a conversation about women ;-) lol....the thread isn't over yet And the night is young....lol
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milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
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Post by milee on Jul 18, 2016 16:09:03 GMT -5
lol....the thread isn't over yet And the night is young....lol Yeah, and I'm multitasking here so don't have time to keep track of whether or not you're one that I think needs to shut up or not... Be back in 10 if you want to remind me.
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