Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 31, 2016 19:58:36 GMT -5
And no one forced anyone to open a business. (how do people not understand this exceedingly simple concept?) If you open a public business... you have to serve the public. It's annoyingly simple. It's so simple even the religious should be able to understand it. It's a lot simpler to understand than "God exists... well... because he does.... because... he just does." Richard, this is not the place for a debate on whether, or not, God exists. Let's just not go there. That's a matter for individual determination. Thanks, mmhmm, Administrator @richardintn wasn't debating whether or not God exists, he was just making it clear how "simple-minded" he thinks people with religion are for their beliefs and understanding of the world.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 31, 2016 20:15:55 GMT -5
Richard, this is not the place for a debate on whether, or not, God exists. Let's just not go there. That's a matter for individual determination. Thanks, mmhmm, Administrator @richardintn wasn't debating whether or not God exists, he was just making it clear how "simple-minded" he thinks people with religion are for their beliefs and understanding of the world. So is your main point with catering? You don't think people should have to cater an event they don't approve of? But like if they wanted to just buy a cookie or some bread they should be able to do so?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 20:30:33 GMT -5
And no one forced anyone to open a business. (how do people not understand this exceedingly simple concept?)If you open a public business... you have to serve the public. It's annoyingly simple. It's so simple even the religious should be able to understand it. It's a lot simpler to understand than "God exists... well... because he does.... because... he just does." I suppose the same way you misunderstand the exceedingly simple concept that we do allow business owners to opt of service for moral objections, just not when it happens to have a large enough lobby group to push it. I realize you don't like religious and your statements like this should be "so simple even the religious should be able to understand it," shows your disdain or belief that anybody who understands something that they can't fully explain must be stupid or at the very least, unintelligent by your standards. Of course science is built upon people believing in things they didn't fully understand, but they saw enough to believe that something else was there in order to explore it more to try and understand it, only to often be lead to even more things that opened up even more questions that they didn't necessarily understand....but that is for another discussion and another board. So I will leave you with this on this subject, it doesn't matter whether people agree with gay marriage or not, it doesn't matter whether if we agree or disagree with people's religious views...it does matter if we want to start preventing people from practicing those views in instances like this where the "harm" done is negligible at best. I realize that is a slippery-slope and figuring out what the line is can be difficult, but we are already drawing lines. My concern in the long-run is having people who have a disdain for religion or religious views being able to force their lack of it on those with it. You very likely don't see it that way, but that really is what it looks like to many people. Yes... we do allow for that. It's not something I misunderstand. They are allowed to "opt out" of providing a service so long as they opt out for EVERYONE, EQUALLY. Someone with a religious prohibition against pork, for example... they are freely allowed to not sell pork TO EVERYONE. They are not required to sell it to anyone. But... once they make the leap to selling pork, then they must sell it to everyone willing to meet their asking price.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 20:36:05 GMT -5
Richard, this is not the place for a debate on whether, or not, God exists. Let's just not go there. That's a matter for individual determination. Thanks, mmhmm, Administrator @richardintn wasn't debating whether or not God exists, he was just making it clear how "simple-minded" he thinks people with religion are for their beliefs and understanding of the world. Actually you got that wrong too. Belief in God takes a lot of work. There's nothing "simple" about it. That's why it made such a good comparison on the "hard to understand" side of the simple versus hard comparison. (but, as mmhmm mentioned, the debate on His existence or not isn't to be done here)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 31, 2016 21:07:54 GMT -5
Richard, this is not the place for a debate on whether, or not, God exists. Let's just not go there. That's a matter for individual determination. Thanks, mmhmm, Administrator @richardintn wasn't debating whether or not God exists, he was just making it clear how "simple-minded" he thinks people with religion are for their beliefs and understanding of the world. That's precisely the reason I cautioned, P_I. That's where these discussions tend to go and we don't want that here. Now, let's drop it - for good. Thanks, mmhmm, Administrator
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 10:18:45 GMT -5
Adversely, Is a key word here , did some one get shot and dying from the wound? Was some one beaten and arrested? Not Baking a cake is hardly an event, That could "ADVERSELY" effect you life, Just go down the street to the next baker, get your cake! Just don't do business with the first baker, See how simple that is! So. if I refuse to give you a flu shot or remove your stiches because you're white, or male or straight or Christian, you're OK with that? How about a Muslim cabbie refusing to pick up your wife from the airport on a cold dark night because his religion dictates he shouldn't be alone with a woman? Or refusing to issue her a driver's licence because he thinks women shouldn't drive? Or refusing to drive you because he sees that you're carrying a bottle of wine to a dinner party? (Just about ALL our cabbies are Muslim) Oh, just find another nurse or clerk or cabbie? It's so easy to say that when you're straight or male or Christian. You're in the majority. So you think that the things you have described are on the same level as not baking a cake?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 1, 2016 10:40:43 GMT -5
So. if I refuse to give you a flu shot or remove your stiches because you're white, or male or straight or Christian, you're OK with that? How about a Muslim cabbie refusing to pick up your wife from the airport on a cold dark night because his religion dictates he shouldn't be alone with a woman? Or refusing to issue her a driver's licence because he thinks women shouldn't drive? Or refusing to drive you because he sees that you're carrying a bottle of wine to a dinner party? (Just about ALL our cabbies are Muslim) Oh, just find another nurse or clerk or cabbie? It's so easy to say that when you're straight or male or Christian. You're in the majority. So you think that the things you have described are on the same level as not baking a cake? The problem is once you start allowing people to not "bake the cake" what other things are they going to think is allowed? It isn't just about the cake. It has never been just about the cake which has been mentioned quite a few times in this thread.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 10:55:55 GMT -5
Kolt, it would have been much easier just to go down the street to the next baker.
A I deal with business that turn me down, couple of time a week, Why? maybe they just don't like me, or it is more convenient for them
to wait for the next customer to walk in the door with less demanding requests. It just means that I go down the street to the next business that may want to take my money, that's all.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 1, 2016 11:01:24 GMT -5
So. if I refuse to give you a flu shot or remove your stiches because you're white, or male or straight or Christian, you're OK with that? How about a Muslim cabbie refusing to pick up your wife from the airport on a cold dark night because his religion dictates he shouldn't be alone with a woman? Or refusing to issue her a driver's licence because he thinks women shouldn't drive? Or refusing to drive you because he sees that you're carrying a bottle of wine to a dinner party? (Just about ALL our cabbies are Muslim) Oh, just find another nurse or clerk or cabbie? It's so easy to say that when you're straight or male or Christian. You're in the majority. So you think that the things you have described are on the same level as not baking a cake? the point of RAA argumentative is to find better examples than cakes, oc. but i will answer this question directly. NO. the cake baking example is SILLY. everyone here knows it. so, please stop asking that question. the REASON we keep arguing this case is that THE SAME LOGIC can be used for far more SERIOUS things.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 1, 2016 11:02:58 GMT -5
Kolt, it would have been much easier just to go down the street to the next baker. A I deal with business that turn me down, couple of time a week, Why? maybe they just don't like me, or it is more convenient for them to wait for the next customer to walk in the door with less demanding requests. It just means that I go down the street to the next business that may want to take my money, that's all. the last time you raised this objection, i pointed to a bakery that was the nearest for 100 miles. that is a long walk.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 1, 2016 11:10:27 GMT -5
Kolt, it would have been much easier just to go down the street to the next baker. A I deal with business that turn me down, couple of time a week, Why? maybe they just don't like me, or it is more convenient for them to wait for the next customer to walk in the door with less demanding requests. It just means that I go down the street to the next business that may want to take my money, that's all. As I said it's a LOT more than just a cake. But that also being said I know a small town near me that if it was allowed both bakeries in that town would turn down a member of the LGBTQ. This is a small Catholic town that I grew up in and they only have two bakeries, one gas station, and one convenience store and that's the extent of their towns services. Imagine if all these stores turned them down? The point is if one person can turn down cake what's to say other's in that town won't? I can imagine that Catholic town banding together and trying to get them out. Also, it applies to more serious things then cake. Medical Service for one. As some people have tried to pass bills where a person can be denied medical attention even an an emergency situation because of "religious beliefs," If I was denied service for something like a "cake" sure I'd find another place because I'm living in a place where there's plenty of bakery's. I'd also make sure all my friends know that place doesn't serve the LGBTQ. I have a HUGE issue when someone doesn't let it known they don't serve the LGBTQ. I say this because I certainly want other's to know even if they're not part of the LGBTQ so they won't go there as well, because I know plenty that wouldn't and they don't deserve the business of people that wouldn't appreciate them denying the LGBTQ.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2016 11:16:15 GMT -5
Kolt, it would have been much easier just to go down the street to the next baker. A I deal with business that turn me down, couple of time a week, Why? maybe they just don't like me, or it is more convenient for them to wait for the next customer to walk in the door with less demanding requests. It just means that I go down the street to the next business that may want to take my money, that's all. ...and if the next baker is plumb full to bursting with strongly-held religious beliefs? Or, if it's a small town, that baker could be the only one around. Maybe they should take the day off work and drive to the town 100 kms away, only to find that baker also has strongly-held religious beliefs? Finding someone to serve you shouldn't be a scavenger hunt.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 11:26:53 GMT -5
Kolt, it would have been much easier just to go down the street to the next baker. A I deal with business that turn me down, couple of time a week, Why? maybe they just don't like me, or it is more convenient for them to wait for the next customer to walk in the door with less demanding requests. It just means that I go down the street to the next business that may want to take my money, that's all. ...and if the next baker is plumb full to bursting with strongly-held religious beliefs? Or, if it's a small town, that baker could be the only one around. Maybe they should take the day off work and drive to the town 100 kms away, only to find that baker also has strongly-held religious beliefs? Finding someone to serve you shouldn't be a scavenger hunt. So your contention is that everyone in our imaginary town is a religious nut?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 1, 2016 12:02:44 GMT -5
...and if the next baker is plumb full to bursting with strongly-held religious beliefs? Or, if it's a small town, that baker could be the only one around. Maybe they should take the day off work and drive to the town 100 kms away, only to find that baker also has strongly-held religious beliefs? Finding someone to serve you shouldn't be a scavenger hunt. So your contention is that everyone in our imaginary town is a religious nut? What if the only "baker" in that town is a "religious nut" and the next bakery isn't for another 100 miles?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 1, 2016 12:03:57 GMT -5
I have a HUGE issue when someone doesn't let it known they don't serve the LGBTQ. I say this because I certainly want other's to know even if they're not part of the LGBTQ so they won't go there as well
I'd be fine with this. If the contention is people should be allowed to discriminate as they please and be protected. .. then they should be willing to openly advertise to whom they will refuse service and why.
Then it's up to me to decide if I want to buy anything from you. That isn't limited to just using you for my wedding, I may choose not to patronize your business at all.
Then it's truly up to the "free market" to decide if their business model is viable or not. If enough people are okay with them not selling wedding cakes to gay people and support their religious right to do so, they will stay in business. If not then they go the way of the Oregon bakers.
If I don't know you discriminate how can I or anyone else "vote with my dollars?" I'm keeping you in business even though I don't agree with you because I don't know your store policies.
It wasn't the fine that drove the Oregon bakers out of business if you read all those articles posted about it. It's that once the community found out they chose to discriminate people boycotted their business. They didn't have enough customers to keep the store front afloat.
Is that what the board claims should happen? The community voted with their dollars and they had to change business models.
If they want enough customers who will support them in spite of discrimination then they need to find a local where the number of people who agree with them outweighs the number of people who agreed with the gay couple.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 12:05:58 GMT -5
So your contention is that everyone in our imaginary town is a religious nut? What if the only "baker" in that town is a "religious nut" and the next bakery isn't for another 100 miles? Then you bake your own cake!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 1, 2016 12:29:29 GMT -5
What if the only "baker" in that town is a "religious nut" and the next bakery isn't for another 100 miles? Then you bake your own cake! exactly why i prefer to make this about something other than cakes. what if you need your appendix removed, and the doctor doesn't like your race or creed, oc? what then? get in your car, with your exploded appendix, coughing up blood, and drive somewhere else? this is not "mythological", by the way. another poster cited a case of a doctor denying acute care to gays.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 1, 2016 13:36:05 GMT -5
What if the only "baker" in that town is a "religious nut" and the next bakery isn't for another 100 miles? Then you bake your own cake! You are seriously making this only about cake. How many times has it been said this ISNT just about cake?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 1, 2016 13:44:06 GMT -5
I have a HUGE issue when someone doesn't let it known they don't serve the LGBTQ. I say this because I certainly want other's to know even if they're not part of the LGBTQ so they won't go there as well
I'd be fine with this. If the contention is people should be allowed to discriminate as they please and be protected. .. then they should be willing to openly advertise to whom they will refuse service and why. Then it's up to me to decide if I want to buy anything from you. That isn't limited to just using you for my wedding, I may choose not to patronize your business at all. Then it's truly up to the "free market" to decide if their business model is viable or not. If enough people are okay with them not selling wedding cakes to gay people and support their religious right to do so, they will stay in business. If not then they go the way of the Oregon bakers. If I don't know you discriminate how can I or anyone else "vote with my dollars?" I'm keeping you in business even though I don't agree with you because I don't know your store policies. It wasn't the fine that drove the Oregon bakers out of business if you read all those articles posted about it. It's that once the community found out they chose to discriminate people boycotted their business. They didn't have enough customers to keep the store front afloat. Is that what the board claims should happen? The community voted with their dollars and they had to change business models. If they want enough customers who will support them in spite of discrimination then they need to find a local where the number of people who agree with them outweighs the number of people who agreed with the gay couple. See I'm actually, even as being part of the LGBTQ okay with someone denying service to someone if it's actually advertised. Not medical care but like a bakery, I'd honestly be okay with it if it was announced. That's why I think that the "cake" isn't the real issue here. It's just that letting some people discriminate in certain cases like medical attention can be fatal. And, if every store in town started to turn away the LGBTQ it does pose issues of someone not being able to live there which does concern me. If someone's in a small town and there's only once convenience store ..like where are they supposed to go to get groceries? That's another concern of mine. It just doesn't have much effect on me right now because I don't live in a small town where I can't find a place to get groceries because I live in a University town and most University towns accept the LGBTQ and if they don't they'd be ran right out of business. But, then I feel like that's me saying, "It doesn't effect me," so go ahead and discriminate as long as you have signs up. And I have to remember that some people are living in these towns and cant afford to move out of those towns, so if they're in that small town and nobody will serve them they truly can't live. And nobody should have to be forced out of a town because not even one place will serve them. :/ It isn't just cake. And say they wanted to bake that cake what if the only store in that town didn't serve them so they could get the ingredients? That's why I'm so up and down with the whole ordeal. I'm like "Okay, discriminate as long as everyone knows you are and it's announced. I then know to never shop at a place someone discriminates me." but then I think about LGBTQ members in small towns who would have to drive 100 miles to go to certain places if their town decided not to serve them and that's just not cool. And people say that's extreme and hardly likely, but it is likely, and it could happen.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2016 13:50:55 GMT -5
What if the only "baker" in that town is a "religious nut" and the next bakery isn't for another 100 miles? Then you bake your own cake! You get your "honourary engineer" badge for the day.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 1, 2016 13:59:05 GMT -5
I go back and forth too. Being heterosexual, white and protestant I recognize I have tremendous advantage in this country. I can still pretty easily get service if someone wants to deny it to gays, non-protestants or ethnic minorities.
But I'm also a woman. It wasn't that long ago in history that I could have been fired the moment i got married or the moment I had my first child. Reading threads on Your Money I would not be surprised to see many people delight in us "breeders" being taken out of the work force again.
It's easy to say it will never happen when you are in a position of power. It's easy to tell other people to suck it up and that yoru right to discriminate should be protected when you are in a position of power.
I do not buy for a second that if someone who isn't the majority chose to exercise their right to discriminate that they would be protected or accepted.
Just look at the tizzy over "Black lives matter" and people saying that it discriminates against white people because it's not "Black Lives Matter TOO"
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2016 14:01:01 GMT -5
...and if the next baker is plumb full to bursting with strongly-held religious beliefs? Or, if it's a small town, that baker could be the only one around. Maybe they should take the day off work and drive to the town 100 kms away, only to find that baker also has strongly-held religious beliefs? Finding someone to serve you shouldn't be a scavenger hunt. So your contention is that everyone in our imaginary town is a religious nut? If it's in the Bible Belt, it`s a strong possibility.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 1, 2016 17:10:17 GMT -5
I go back and forth too. Being heterosexual, white and protestant I recognize I have tremendous advantage in this country. I can still pretty easily get service if someone wants to deny it to gays, non-protestants or ethnic minorities. But I'm also a woman. It wasn't that long ago in history that I could have been fired the moment i got married or the moment I had my first child. Reading threads on Your Money I would not be surprised to see many people delight in us "breeders" being taken out of the work force again. It's easy to say it will never happen when you are in a position of power. It's easy to tell other people to suck it up and that yoru right to discriminate should be protected when you are in a position of power. I do not buy for a second that if someone who isn't the majority chose to exercise their right to discriminate that they would be protected or accepted. Just look at the tizzy over "Black lives matter" and people saying that it discriminates against white people because it's not "Black Lives Matter TOO" When I was first in the midst of transitioning I was more apt to go around with the LGBTQ and try to get our voices heard. And, I notice now it isn't just the fact that I live in a more accepting community, I also pass as a cisgender male therefore, my life outside of my accepting community like when I visit South and such is now so much different. And I slowly find myself sometimes thinking "Things are getting better," so I've lightened up on the supporting and going to LGBTQ meetings. And then, I hear stories in the news and I start to wonder if maybe me passing is starting to make me feel as if the worlds changing, but it really isn't changing much. Because I'm passing I'm starting to care a little less for the LGBTQ community because it doesn't effect me like it used to. Then I have to take a step back and remember the stuff I went through when I didn't pass and the stuff my friends go through and try to remember that just because I can pass as a cisgender male, just because I can blend in some people can't as well as I can. And just because I blend in as a cisgender male why should others of the LGBTQ not get the same rights I do now. Nobody would dare deny me services because I pass. My drivers license says male. If I was to get married they'd assume they were marrying a cisgender couple. So I sometimes have to step away from myself and how things have gotten better for me, and remember A. what they were like when I wasn't passing and living down south and B. what it's like for other's around the United States who are gay, or transgender.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 18:40:23 GMT -5
Then you bake your own cake! exactly why i prefer to make this about something other than cakes. what if you need your appendix removed, and the doctor doesn't like your race or creed, oc? what then? get in your car, with your exploded appendix, coughing up blood, and drive somewhere else? this is not "mythological", by the way. another poster cited a case of a doctor denying acute care to gays. Did they provide a link for that, I do remember where gynecologist refused to deliver a baby because the mother was a attorney that specializes in that kind of lawsuits!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 18:49:00 GMT -5
O.C. really has a brain tumor, You won't believe the number of Drs. that turned me down as a patient.
I did not need an explanation why they turned me down, All I know is that I have an Endocrinologist that is outstanding now.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 1, 2016 18:59:40 GMT -5
O.C. really has a brain tumor, You won't believe the number of Drs. that turned me down as a patient. I did not need an explanation why they turned me down, All I know is that I have an Endocrinologist that is outstanding now. oh dear. what's the prognosis, oc?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 1, 2016 19:00:32 GMT -5
exactly why i prefer to make this about something other than cakes. what if you need your appendix removed, and the doctor doesn't like your race or creed, oc? what then? get in your car, with your exploded appendix, coughing up blood, and drive somewhere else? this is not "mythological", by the way. another poster cited a case of a doctor denying acute care to gays. Did they provide a link for that, I do remember where gynecologist refused to deliver a baby because the mother was a attorney that specializes in that kind of lawsuits! yeah, they did. but unfortunately, i didn't click on it. i think i was packing up for my trip.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 1, 2016 19:10:53 GMT -5
O.C. really has a brain tumor, You won't believe the number of Drs. that turned me down as a patient. I did not need an explanation why they turned me down, All I know is that I have an Endocrinologist that is outstanding now. oh dear. what's the prognosis, oc? They are feeding me pills, it is working, this has been going on for a long time, I just ignore it, other than the Dr. visits and blood test. Everything is good!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 2, 2016 9:12:47 GMT -5
I sure pray everything turns out ok for you, OC.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 5, 2016 8:56:45 GMT -5
@richardintn wasn't debating whether or not God exists, he was just making it clear how "simple-minded" he thinks people with religion are for their beliefs and understanding of the world. So is your main point with catering? You don't think people should have to cater an event they don't approve of? But like if they wanted to just buy a cookie or some bread they should be able to do so? My main point is that you shouldn't be forced to provide services to events for which you have a moral objection. People say "it's not about the cake" or the flowers, or whatever else but that it is about a larger issue....but the truth is that it really is about the cake in this instance and it is also about how far these types of protections should go. If I wanted to go to any business and buy supplies for an event that that owner had a moral/ethical issue with, they should have the right to tell me that they can't in good conscience sell me the items because they know what they are going to be used to support. Let's say it's a "Pro-Life" campaign and the owner believes it's an attack on a woman's right to choose, they shouldn't be forced to provide their products or service, or let's say it's for a Trump or Clinton rally and the owner really has an issue with either of those candidates, they shouldn't be forced to provide service for those events; if there is an LGBTQ event, the same criteria should be applied in whether a business should be forced to provide a service or not (although I highly doubt the reaction would be the same as refusing service to other conventions and we'd be having the same discussion we are now)...but at the same time, those businesses should be able to provide service to those events they believe in without fear of repercussions that they are providing service to some events and not others because of moral/ethical beliefs. Weddings aren't protected events anymore than any of the events I mentioned above, the only issue anybody has is who the wedding is for and the size of the lobby group behind them. As I've said before, we may not always like or agree with the choices people make, but we do need to allow room for them to make those choices.
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