chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 9, 2016 18:22:52 GMT -5
The often quoted 78 cents figure is misleading. It only compares full time working men and women. does that make it better?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 18:36:48 GMT -5
Society expects women to be the nurturer. When I call parents, I tend to call the mother. Why is that, do you suppose?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 9, 2016 18:58:08 GMT -5
Society expects women to be the nurturer. When I call parents, I tend to call the mother. Why is that, do you suppose? In my case it is because Im the more involved parent and always have been.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 9, 2016 19:30:37 GMT -5
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 9, 2016 19:31:46 GMT -5
John trumps Jennifer. gender.stanford.edu/news/2014/why-does-john-get-stem-job-rather-jennifer"Despite having the exact same qualifications and experience as John, Jennifer was perceived as significantly less competent. As a result, Jenifer experienced a number of disadvantages that would have hindered her career advancement if she were a real applicant. Because they perceived the female candidate as l ess competent, the scientists in the study were less willing to mentor Jennifer or to hire her as a lab manager. They also recommended paying her a lower salary. Jennifer was offered, on average, $4,000 per year (13%) less than John."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 19:32:39 GMT -5
Society expects women to be the nurturer. When I call parents, I tend to call the mother. Why is that, do you suppose? In my case it is because Im the more involved parent and always have been. And that's the problem. We expect the mother to be the more involved parent. So she is discriminated against--not intentionally or necessarily in actuality--because she is female. We expect women to get custody. We expect women to take off when their kids are sick. And so on. It doesn't mean that dads don't do this, too. It just means that these expectations are held against women, whether they are verbalized or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 19:38:17 GMT -5
In my case it is because Im the more involved parent and always have been. Priceless story about Chelsea Clinton when Bill was in the White House and she needed them to call a parent when she got sick at school: she said, "Call my Dad; my Mom is too busy."
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quince
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Post by quince on Mar 9, 2016 19:54:19 GMT -5
...Do we have one of these every quarter or something?
Last time the studies about women being overlooked were mentioned, and I think DQ mentioned something about papers being accepted at a higher rate from male names/women's papers being accepted at a higher rate when names were not included.
There's obviously (to me, at least) both- unequal opportunity because of biases against women, and women making choices that reduces their earning power. Some of the choices women make that reduce their earning power is based on societal pressure and while that's not cool, they still get to choose, and in my opinion, not the employer's problem. When there is bias in hiring or promotion based on gender, and not performance, that is a problem with the employer.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 9, 2016 20:49:52 GMT -5
unequal results? It seems to me that since people claim that a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man is paid X% less than a man for the same job, the issue is not one of opportunity, but one of results. I don't think there are any occupations, especially high-paid white collar careers, where people discriminate based on gender. I think women have just as much of an opportunity to get a job as men do. However, you're never going to be able to equalize pay, because you're not talking about opportunity, you're talking about the end result. Women have just as much opportunity to earn as much as men do, but if they are paid less, that does not necessarily equal a gender wage gap. It just means, on average, one group is paid less than another group. The reason given for the gap is gender, but the existence of a gap is not proof of discrimination. I beg to differ. I do get treated differently than men. I am often not taken seriously. I am often assumed I am not competent until I prove otherwise. It seems to me that generally men are perceived as competent until they prove otherwise. You've always been competent in my eyes swamp.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Mar 9, 2016 21:01:23 GMT -5
unequal results? It seems to me that since people claim that a woman with the same experience and qualifications as a man is paid X% less than a man for the same job, the issue is not one of opportunity, but one of results. I don't think there are any occupations, especially high-paid white collar careers, where people discriminate based on gender. I think women have just as much of an opportunity to get a job as men do. However, you're never going to be able to equalize pay, because you're not talking about opportunity, you're talking about the end result. Women have just as much opportunity to earn as much as men do, but if they are paid less, that does not necessarily equal a gender wage gap. It just means, on average, one group is paid less than another group. The reason given for the gap is gender, but the existence of a gap is not proof of discrimination. I beg to differ. I do get treated differently than men. I am often not taken seriously. I am often assumed I am not competent until I prove otherwise. It seems to me that generally men are perceived as competent until they prove otherwise. I think everyone is incompetent until proven otherwise Set expectations low, you'll rarely be disappointed.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Mar 9, 2016 21:02:24 GMT -5
I think choice is the biggest part.
You CHOOSE to work at that salary when you accept the job, so is it the employer's fault for wanting to pay you as little as possible, or your fault for accepting that salary?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 9, 2016 21:49:37 GMT -5
Yup! If women did get paid significantly less than men for the same job, why don't companies hire only women to save on payroll ?? I don't see this happening! Actually, there are some 'traditional' women's work type jobs that are still relatively low paid AND held by mostly by women - even though men could do the work. (dental assistants, hotel maids, grade school teachers, pre school teachers, librarians). Admin Assistants (ie secretaries), Legal assistants, nurses, and any sort of front office support are generally women.
But if you look at types of work and pay overall - the "mostly women workers" type jobs are generally lower paid jobs (sometimes dead end jobs). A woman may also get 'pidgeon holed' in a job and have trouble moving out of a lower paid position even though she may get more responsibility/authority than the job requires without getting an increase in pay.
Of course, this thread is more about white collar jobs - with potentially large employers who's HR departments are more likely to attempt to avoid discrimination... so I do agree that at that level any discrimination is bit more 'subtle' than the old fashion out and out asking or telling a female employee that since she's so 'reliable' she can take on some additional duties (without any extra pay - because the guy they'd mostly like hire with the skill set for the job would want the higher wage OR if they promoted a guy from within to do the extra duties - he'd expect a higher wage and when one wasn't offered he demand it.).
And by subtle I mean something along the lines of a woman manager being inadvertently excluded from the off the cuff discussions the male managers might have in the locker room (at the office gym) or if the male managers routinely have "drinks" after work which the woman can attend (because of family commitments).
A lot of career building stuff happens outside the office environment once you hit management. It might not effect "worker bees" so much but it definitely effects those climbing the corporate ladder (or any job that requires "salesmanship").
Wanted to comment on that... Drinks - while I don't have any studies, I am 100% sure that going for drinks after work is viewed very differently for men and women. I found out the best scoop, both gossipy one and the important business one when I used to smoke. I was a young kid, right out of college and I was standing outside, smoking with VPs and such and you wouldn't believe the info I would know. It wasn't about gender, it was about common interests. And speaking of common interests..... At the same company, a friend of mine, a few years older (she was in her late20's) took up golf. She worked in actuary dept, she was 1 exam away from completing them all (ask @athena53 how impressive that is), she was making six figures, very very smart, BUT she still felt like she was not included in things, so took up a sport she had NO interest in. I told her she should just start smoking.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 9, 2016 22:01:35 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 10, 2016 0:54:02 GMT -5
The often quoted 78 cents figure is misleading. It only compares full time working men and women. does that make it better? I offer no qualifications or opinions, just stating facts.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Mar 10, 2016 5:53:55 GMT -5
I doubt the vitriol had anything to do with gender, it is much more likely that people were jealous that someone had a winning lottery ticket in their hand, and refused to cash it. Some people lash out when they get jealous, it is one of the unfortunate prices of success.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Mar 10, 2016 9:31:20 GMT -5
I don't feel like I have ever been treated unfairly due to gender. I know I make the same as my male coworkers. At my previous job we hired male and female engineers at the same starting salary. Maybe I'm biased, but most of the female engineers did better in their job because a lot of the males had the personality of engineers, but the females were better at communication. Even though I have 3 kids I was never on the mommy track. I never took more than 8 weeks off for childbirth. For 2 of my kids we hit the timing just right so that DH stayed home for summer when I went back to work (he was a school teacher). He quit his job just prior to 3rd child and plan was for him to stay home. That lasted 3 months, then he started a business where he could be flexible with kids schedule. I traveled for work , not a lot, but I had a few overseas trips that lasted up to 5 weeks. I know of many successful women engineers. I think what we are getting is that it is difficult for there to be two successful people in a marriage. Traditionally the woman took the backseat and let the man focus on work. That isn't discrimination but choice. But times are changing and perhaps my daughter's generation will have more women like you and less like me. I am a baby boomer and never felt that I was treated unfairly due to gender. Actually, the opposite. When I came out of college, there weren't many female engineers. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in hiring women and I was fortunate to have landed a great job. My mother went to college while she worked. She worked her way up from a secretarial position to controller of a company. It never occurred to me that I couldn't do whatever I wanted. And now, my DD has benefited from that legacy in that she has no gender biases in the way she was raised. Not in our family. But to each his own experience and history. I never felt that I had to choose between being a housewife and mother or working. I married someone who also hadn't made the assumption that I wouldn't, by default, be the one to stay home with our children. It was something that we worked out between us. He also had a Mom who was educated and worked as a nurse. Maybe the examples that we had growing up created an innate view?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 10, 2016 9:34:11 GMT -5
I beg to differ. I do get treated differently than men. I am often not taken seriously. I am often assumed I am not competent until I prove otherwise. It seems to me that generally men are perceived as competent until they prove otherwise. You've always been competent in my eyes swamp. that's because you know me through my posts.
If you walked in my office, would you automatically assume I am the secretary or the lawyer?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 10, 2016 9:35:08 GMT -5
I think choice is the biggest part. You CHOOSE to work at that salary when you accept the job, so is it the employer's fault for wanting to pay you as little as possible, or your fault for accepting that salary? No.
But is it the employee's fault if the guy is offered more nurturing, development, and networking to increase salary faster?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 10, 2016 9:43:18 GMT -5
In my case it is because Im the more involved parent and always have been. And that's the problem. We expect the mother to be the more involved parent. So she is discriminated against--not intentionally or necessarily in actuality--because she is female. We expect women to get custody. We expect women to take off when their kids are sick. And so on. It doesn't mean that dads don't do this, too. It just means that these expectations are held against women, whether they are verbalized or not. When DS was little and got sick, DH and I would swap days - I would stay home on day 1, he would take day 2, etc.
Once, at work, a male manager said "I thought your son had the measles." I said yes, he does. Manager said "Well where is he?" I said "His dad's taking care of him."
Manager responded with a combination of 'Gee, do you think your DH knows what to do' and 'Wouldn't you rather be there taking care of him?'
Yes I WOULD rather be there taking care of him but can't take a week off work - so DH and I share the sick days. Why does that make DH a fabulous dad for staying home with a sick kid, but makes me a crappy mom because I can bear to be away from my sick kid?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 10, 2016 9:49:23 GMT -5
does that make it better? I offer no qualifications or opinions, just stating facts. ...which adds nothing to the conversation, as nobody else latched onto it. I'm curious as to your opinion of your fact.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 10, 2016 9:51:38 GMT -5
I think what we are getting is that it is difficult for there to be two successful people in a marriage. Traditionally the woman took the backseat and let the man focus on work. That isn't discrimination but choice. But times are changing and perhaps my daughter's generation will have more women like you and less like me. I am a baby boomer and never felt that I was treated unfairly due to gender. Actually, the opposite. When I came out of college, there weren't many female engineers. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in hiring women and I was fortunate to have landed a great job. My mother went to college while she worked. She worked her way up from a secretarial position to controller of a company. It never occurred to me that I couldn't do whatever I wanted. And now, my DD has benefited from that legacy in that she has no gender biases in the way she was raised. Not in our family. But to each his own experience and history. I never felt that I had to choose between being a housewife and mother or working. I married someone who also hadn't made the assumption that I wouldn't, by default, be the one to stay home with our children. It was something that we worked out between us. He also had a Mom who was educated and worked as a nurse. Maybe the examples that we had growing up created an innate view? I'm not one that cares what society expects from me. I had a strong desire to be there for my children. I would never have been able to work a ton of hours while my husband stayed home with them. Again, not because of societal expectations but because of what I wanted as a mother. In that regards, I'm not sure how much is societal versus a gender thing. I do think a higher % of women would prefer to be with their children versus me...that's just from my experience with my friends. I have seen my female friends crying because they couldn't afford to stay home or work part time once they had children but I have never heard a male friend cry about something like that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 10, 2016 9:53:38 GMT -5
You've always been competent in my eyes swamp. that's because you know me through my posts.
If you walked in my office, would you automatically assume I am the secretary or the lawyer?
I would never assume that a female was a secretary versus an attorney. I've worked with many female attorneys over the years. For me, it has more to do with how the person carries themselves versus their gender.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 10, 2016 9:55:10 GMT -5
nobody has ever asked my husband why he didn't quit working and stay home with the kids. I've been asked several times.
One attorney told me I should be home with my kids. I told him I would be happy to if he would pay my mortgage and fund my retirement. Funny he didn't think that was a good idea.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 10, 2016 9:55:39 GMT -5
that's because you know me through my posts.
If you walked in my office, would you automatically assume I am the secretary or the lawyer?
I would never assume that a female was a secretary versus an attorney. I've worked with many female attorneys over the years. For me, it has more to do with how the person carries themselves versus their gender. You've met me. Do I look like a lawyer?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 10, 2016 9:58:21 GMT -5
And that's the problem. We expect the mother to be the more involved parent. So she is discriminated against--not intentionally or necessarily in actuality--because she is female. We expect women to get custody. We expect women to take off when their kids are sick. And so on. It doesn't mean that dads don't do this, too. It just means that these expectations are held against women, whether they are verbalized or not. When DS was little and got sick, DH and I would swap days - I would stay home on day 1, he would take day 2, etc.
Once, at work, a male manager said "I thought your son had the measles." I said yes, he does. Manager said "Well where is he?" I said "His dad's taking care of him."
Manager responded with a combination of 'Gee, do you think your DH knows what to do' and 'Wouldn't you rather be there taking care of him?'
Yes I WOULD rather be there taking care of him but can't take a week off work - so DH and I share the sick days. Why does that make DH a fabulous dad for staying home with a sick kid, but makes me a crappy mom because I can bear to be away from my sick kid?
But right there says it all. As a mom, I always wanted to be the one taking care of my child when they were sick. I can't say my ex ever thought "gee, I would much rather be home with my child who is sick than be at work". He went to work like it was just another day.
Again, I'm only going by what I saw in life and have no scientific evidence of anything. For me, it was a strong maternal pull that had me wanting to be with the kids when they were sick, wanting to see them at their school events, etc. Their dad just didn't have that same pull. He would do it if I couldn't
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 10, 2016 9:59:18 GMT -5
nobody has ever asked my husband why he didn't quit working and stay home with the kids. I've been asked several times.
One attorney told me I should be home with my kids. I told him I would be happy to if he would pay my mortgage and fund my retirement. Funny he didn't think that was a good idea. The only person that ever said that to me was my mother. I have never had another professional ever say anything like that to me.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 10, 2016 10:00:02 GMT -5
I would never assume that a female was a secretary versus an attorney. I've worked with many female attorneys over the years. For me, it has more to do with how the person carries themselves versus their gender. You've met me. Do I look like a lawyer? lol! as much as I look like a CPA
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Mar 10, 2016 10:01:27 GMT -5
Just because some women here have not experienced it does not mean it does not exist - just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 10:03:34 GMT -5
At the same company, a friend of mine, a few years older (she was in her late20's) took up golf. She worked in actuary dept, she was 1 exam away from completing them all (ask @athena53 how impressive that is), she was making six figures, very very smart, BUT she still felt like she was not included in things, so took up a sport she had NO interest in. I told her she should just start smoking.
Definitely an accomplishment. Sometimes I think I should have taken up golf- I was born into a family of golf fanatics but lacked decent co-ordination and just found it really slow and boring. EVERY meeting of our professional society included optional golf outings if it was in a place with a nice climate.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 10, 2016 10:06:51 GMT -5
When DS was little and got sick, DH and I would swap days - I would stay home on day 1, he would take day 2, etc.
Once, at work, a male manager said "I thought your son had the measles." I said yes, he does. Manager said "Well where is he?" I said "His dad's taking care of him."
Manager responded with a combination of 'Gee, do you think your DH knows what to do' and 'Wouldn't you rather be there taking care of him?'
Yes I WOULD rather be there taking care of him but can't take a week off work - so DH and I share the sick days. Why does that make DH a fabulous dad for staying home with a sick kid, but makes me a crappy mom because I can bear to be away from my sick kid?
But right there says it all. As a mom, I always wanted to be the one taking care of my child when they were sick. I can't say my ex ever thought "gee, I would much rather be home with my child who is sick than be at work". He went to work like it was just another day.
Again, I'm only going by what I saw in life and have no scientific evidence of anything. For me, it was a strong maternal pull that had me wanting to be with the kids when they were sick, wanting to see them at their school events, etc. Their dad just didn't have that same pull. He would do it if I couldn't
yeah, but IMO it shouldn't be just about what the mom wants but what is best for the family. If it's best for the family for the mom to work part time/mommy track/handle all the sick days for the kids, then that should happen. But I always wanted a partner who would split everything with me, even the childcare duties. I didn't make DS by myself so I don't expect to do all the work. X had his moments in the beginning but he is an extremely involved dad. And even though we're not together anymore, I'm glad I chose to have my son with him.
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