MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 9:38:54 GMT -5
Granted, the whole transgender thing is beyond my comprehension, but if the person keeps the same genitals - what exactly does the "transition" entails? Changing hair, makeup and outfits?? Oh being called Nicole instead of Nick Good question. And I'll add a sincere one to it: What IS the difference between transgender and drag other than the fact that men in drag don't usually have significant surgery? I'm not expert, but I think cross dressing is where they still identify as their born gender, but they just like to dress up as the opposite from time to time.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2016 9:39:04 GMT -5
A whole new world to explore.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 9:40:43 GMT -5
Good question. And I'll add a sincere one to it: What IS the difference between transgender and drag other than the fact that men in drag don't usually have significant surgery? I'm not expert, but I think cross dressing is where they still identify as their born gender, but they just like to dress up as the opposite from time to time. oops, I read that as trans sans surgery vs. cross dressing. Not quite sure of trans sans surgery vs. drag though....
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 20, 2016 9:44:48 GMT -5
I'm not expert, but I think cross dressing is where they still identify as their born gender, but they just like to dress up as the opposite from time to time. oops, I read that as trans sans surgery vs. cross dressing. Not quite sure of trans sans surgery vs. drag though.... It is like the difference between a slut and a woman who is empowered by and loves her own sexuality. Both are women who have lots of sex.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 20, 2016 9:44:56 GMT -5
Fortunately it seems the marriage has been a short one so hopefully she is still young enough to start over and make a new life for herself. If she chooses. My anger is reserved for those who knew they were gay or knew they wanted to be someone they weren't but tricked someone else into a fraudulent relationship based on their own selfishness. I've seen it happen way too much. Usually men perpetrating it on women and sometimes these women have had children with them. That's my beef. It's okay for you to be whatever you want to be. It's not okay to subject another to your decisions that affect them Just one more reason to destigmatize being gay or transgender. Too late for many the older generations but it's not too late for the younger and future generations.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jan 20, 2016 9:58:13 GMT -5
oops, I read that as trans sans surgery vs. cross dressing. Not quite sure of trans sans surgery vs. drag though.... It is like the difference between a slut and a woman who is empowered by and loves her own sexuality. Both are women who have lots of sex. You are brave to say that out loud!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 20, 2016 10:00:11 GMT -5
Treat gender dysphoria like any other serious mental illness. The wife's first responsibility is to herself and her family. Does she consider her husband's illness to be life or morally threatening to herself, her children, her grandchildren? If so, take the necessary steps to isolate them from her husband. Beyond this, she has a duty to be a faithful wife. He's broken their marriage covenant, hence if she chooses to divorce him, so be it. But just as if he were suffering from mental illness of another kind--dementia, paranoia, obsession--he's still fundamentally her husband. If she can support him without countenancing or exacerbating the illness, and he's willing to tolerate her rejection of his delusion, she would do well to stick by the man she married, even in his infirmity. Again, this is provided he poses no moral threat to her or her children. If it were me supporting my friend (the wife), I'd convey the above advice as well as due notice that I'd have no part in her husband's illness. Hence if her continued friendship required that I play along, I would no longer be a suitable friend to her. Notwithstanding this one caveat, I'd treat her like any other friend whose family was going through a serious trial or illness. Sympathy, assistance, an open door, a place to stay if she needs it, avoiding speaking evil whenever possible. She's suffering, a victim of circumstance, and she needs a solid foundation to rest on. My perspective, FWIW. And my sympathies for your friend.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 20, 2016 10:01:30 GMT -5
oops, I read that as trans sans surgery vs. cross dressing. Not quite sure of trans sans surgery vs. drag though.... It is like the difference between a slut and a woman who is empowered by and loves her own sexuality. Both are women who have lots of sex. You're not supposed to say that out loud, man.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 20, 2016 10:02:19 GMT -5
It is like the difference between a slut and a woman who is empowered by and loves her own sexuality. Both are women who have lots of sex. You're not supposed to say that out loud, man. what did I say? ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 10:05:59 GMT -5
Actually the only difference between those two is whether or not the speaker is a sexist. Most of the time the same woman gets both descriptions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 10:14:58 GMT -5
<snip>... I'd treat her like any other friend whose family was going through a serious trial or illness. Sympathy, assistance, an open door, a place to stay if she needs it, avoiding speaking evil whenever possible. She's suffering, a victim of circumstance, and she needs a solid foundation to rest on. My perspective, FWIW. And my sympathies for your friend. I agree with the above although I took it a little out of context. Virgil wanted no part in empathizing with or supporting the husband; I'd want to support both if I could. I can't pretend to understand someone who believes they were born in the wrong body; the closest I can come to it is picturing how I'd feel if I woke up one morning in a man's body. It would just be al wrong and maybe that's how someone feels when they want gender reassignment surgery.
zib, what a tragic story about the son of the transgendered father who committed suicide. I agree that it's wrong to enter a marriage knowing it's the wrong thing to do because of your sexual orientation or gender identity, but I think that people are talking more about gender reassignment now and so more people are considering it as an option- maybe one that was unspeakable when they married years ago. And maybe they really, really tried to fit into life as the gender they were born with physically and just couldn't make it work. What actually concerns me more is the decisions adolescents and their parents are making; I saw a documentary on transgendered kids and if they're really serious about it they start taking hormones at a young age (before puberty?). It's one thing to dress as the other gender and change your name and see how it feels. It's another to commit to chemical changes that are going to have a permanent effect. Now there's no turning back. It almost seems better to me to make the decision when you're an adult.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 20, 2016 10:23:14 GMT -5
Actually the only difference between those two is whether or not the speaker is a sexist. Most of the time the same woman gets both descriptions. intersting
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jan 20, 2016 10:26:08 GMT -5
Treat it like an illness? That's just nuts, Virgil. Those in the LGBTQ community are not "sick". They are wired differently than what the general population consists to be the norm. To say otherwise is offensive.
As to why have surgery? I can't answer that, other than to speculate that perhaps they've spent their entire lives "living a lie" and it's just what they need to finish correcting that. But, if people were more accepting in general, they wouldn't have to feel that way to begin with, would they?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 20, 2016 10:27:54 GMT -5
Treat gender dysmorphia like any other serious mental illness. The wife's first responsibility is to herself and her family. Does she consider her husband's illness to be life or morally threatening to herself, her children, her grandchildren? If so, take the necessary steps to isolate them from her husband. Beyond this, she has a duty to be a faithful wife. He's broken their marriage covenant, hence if she chooses to divorce him, so be it. But just as if he were suffering from mental illness of another kind--dementia, paranoia, obsession--he's still fundamentally her husband. If she can support him without countenancing or exacerbating the illness, and he's willing to tolerate her rejection of his delusion, she would do well to stick by the man she married, even in his infirmity. Again, this is provided he poses no moral threat to her or her children. If it were me supporting my friend (the wife), I'd convey the above advice as well as due notice that I'd have no part in her husband's illness. Hence if her continued friendship required that I play along, I would no longer be a suitable friend to her. Notwithstanding this one caveat, I'd treat her like any other friend whose family was going through a serious trial or illness. Sympathy, assistance, an open door, a place to stay if she needs it, avoiding speaking evil whenever possible. She's suffering, a victim of circumstance, and she needs a solid foundation to rest on. My perspective, FWIW. And my sympathies for your friend. You DO realize (of course ) that there is no such thing as "gender dysmorphia." There is "body dysmorphia" and "gender dysphoria," but as we say in the old West: but narry the twain shall meet. So unless you are licensed psychiatrist or licensed clinical social worker, it is not your place to be throwing diagnoses around for people, especially those about whom you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So stop it. Better yet, keep your nose completely out of the DSM V. It's clearly not a safe place for you to play when the well being of other human lives are at stake. ETA: Moon beat me to it!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 10:39:36 GMT -5
not that I agree with Virgil at all (maybe I agree with 0.0000001% of what he's said here), but we made fun of the woman in the article who said she was a kid in an adult body. And I heard a story about a "troubled" woman who wanted to cut off one of her limbs because she believed that she was an amputee in a fully mobile person's body. And of course Rachel Dolezal. Why are those women considered crazy or sick and yet we accept transgender as not crazy?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2016 10:42:51 GMT -5
Wait, so it is considered 100% neurotypical to want to change your organs?
And we consider people with addictions sick, but not people who want to cut off their organs?
Oh lordy, I was born in the wrong time bc I have noooo idea how any of this make sense.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2016 10:45:18 GMT -5
Oh MJ2.0 - wasn't it a man who said he was really a little girl?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 20, 2016 10:48:14 GMT -5
Treat it like an illness? That's just nuts, Virgil. Those in the LGBTQ community are not "sick". They are wired differently than what the general population consists to be the norm. To say otherwise is offensive. As to why have surgery? I can't answer that, other than to speculate that perhaps they've spent their entire lives "living a lie" and it's just what they need to finish correcting that. But, if people were more accepting in general, they wouldn't have to feel that way to begin with, would they? It's an illness. The man is delusional. He should be treated as such. We've had this debate before in the Bruce Jenner thread and gotten nowhere. I've given shanendoah my advice, which reflects what I would do in her situation. She can take it or leave it. If you feel she should do differently, you're free to offer your own advice. If I find it offensive: sucks to be me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 20, 2016 10:50:59 GMT -5
You DO realize (of course ) that there is no such thing as "gender dysmorphia." There is "body dysmorphia" and "gender dysphoria," but as we say in the old West: but narry the twain shall meet. Indeed. Brain fart. It is now fixed. Thank you.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 10:56:10 GMT -5
Oh MJ2.0 - wasn't it a man who said he was really a little girl? I don't remember if it was a man or a woman, but I do remember everyone going ham about how crazy/dumb they were.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jan 20, 2016 10:56:37 GMT -5
It's kind of a crazy day at work and I've just skimmed the first page. I'm not sure that I had anyone outside of the community as a support person... My family is pretty go with the flow, and will always be there for me, but it wasn't something I went to them for support with.
Trying to spend time with just the wife and asking her what she needs is probably the best starting point. We went to a support group for trans people and their partners for several months and I had outside meetups with the partners. I don't know your relationship with the friend, but someone told my husband to not be an ass and make sure that he still paid attention to me, my needs, wants, and life outside of his transition which he made a concerted effort to do (in a consuming life changing and self focused time that isn't always easy to do).
Dh and I are the only couple still together after a transition of anyone we knew. Many split directly because of the transition (or issues surrounding it). Others it was probably a factor in it, but at least from the outside didn't appear to be the driving force. Relationships that start after transition seem to have a better track record from my anecdotal evidence. I realize that isn't a resounding endorsement for your friends.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 20, 2016 11:08:53 GMT -5
Oh Calvin...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 11:10:26 GMT -5
As to why have surgery? I can't answer that, other than to speculate that perhaps they've spent their entire lives "living a lie" and it's just what they need to finish correcting that. But, if people were more accepting in general, they wouldn't have to feel that way to begin with, would they? I don't know. I know a lot of people that think their unhappiness comes from outside themselves when it's really an internal thing.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jan 20, 2016 11:12:48 GMT -5
He is NOT delusional, Virgil. He's not hearing voices in his head, and medication isn't going to do anything.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 20, 2016 11:13:18 GMT -5
Your insight is certainly welcome in this thread, raeoflyte. You've got experience none of the rest of us have and that's given you knowledge and a perspective we all lack. Thanks for chiming in!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 11:38:27 GMT -5
Can the people questioning the viability and ethics of trans-gender stuff please leave and start their own thread?
This is clearly a thread for the support of the wife of someone going through it, started by her friend, a member of this forum, asking for advice from her friends on this message board.
jmo
dem - forum member. why are you attempting to censor people who haven't done anything to break the CoC? People go off on tangents all the time - are you going to start policing the threads to tell the people off-topic to go start their own threads?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 20, 2016 11:39:41 GMT -5
that wasn't a moderator post....
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 20, 2016 11:40:20 GMT -5
First off - everyone can stop worrying about "the kids" - there are no kids. There used to be goat kids when they owned a goat farm, but there are no human kids and have never been any plans (or even hopes, as far as I know) for human kids.
raeoflyte - Thank you for chiming in. I've missed you. I would describe this as a fairly strong marriage with two people who love each other very much, but the wife does come from a much more conservative family and is herself a little more conservative than the rest of our group. I would be sad if their marriage ended, but also understand that my feelings about that matter less than 0. I care about them both as people and want to see them both happy. Will try to find time to spend with her soon. (We just both have schedules that often make that very difficult.)
whoisjohngalt - The wife disappearing would be hard, in that our friend group relocated to where we are from elsewhere. She has very few friends outside out established friend group up here, partly because prior to this year, she worked as a nanny, and so didn't meet new friends at work. If she decides this ends the marriage, I do expect her to either move back to NV where we are all from, or at least down to Portland where her sister is now.
Believe it or not, Virgil Showlion is right about something in this - gender dysphoria is a serious mental illness and needs to remain classified as such. Because if it is not classified as an illness, then health insurance is not require to pay for treatment. And it is an illness for which there is a treatment, almost a cure even, and that is for the person to transition to the gender they intellectually and emotionally identify with, instead of leaving them trapped in the body they were born in.
zibazinski - I feel awful for the family you know. I do know this can be handled well, though, as I had a good friend in college whose biological father transitioned into a woman while that friend and her sister were in high school. Their parents were already divorced, and it was not the easiest thing for the two daughters to grasp at first, but the family managed it well and both daughters had a great relationship with "Carrie". In my friends case, I do not think this was something he was able to consciously admit to himself until very recently. He started going to counseling for his anger issues, and this turned out to lie at the heart of it. As I said, since simply admitting it, his anger issues are very obviously diminished, and so I would guess that in itself is making him easier to live with.
The wife is stressed. She has been stressed for a while. She is a teacher who is burned out. She tried being a nanny, but not only did that pay terrible, turned out it was worse than being a teacher for her. She is back to teaching, but they do have a plan for her to go back to school and get another degree in a few years. They are on rocky ground financially and have been for a number of years, which also adds stress. Even if everything else in their life was perfect, I would totally understand if this ended their marriage. Everything else is not perfect, and I could also easily see this as the straw that breaks the camels back, so to speak.
As MJ2.0 said, we see a lot about supporting the person who is transitioning (which I am going to do), but less about supporting their families, and I want to make sure I support both of my friends through this.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 11:41:33 GMT -5
yes, but it was posted by a moderator in a formal format. Almost like a friendly warning. If it wasn't meant to be that way, I apologize for misunderstanding.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 20, 2016 11:47:08 GMT -5
yes, but it was posted by a moderator in a formal format. Almost like a friendly warning. If it wasn't meant to be that way, I apologize for misunderstanding. That is why I put FORUM MEMBER instead of M in my tag. I am sorry it was not more clear. You could start a new thread. that would gives other a place to post.
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