Confederate Battle Flag.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Jan 24, 2016 15:32:04 GMT -5 verrip1 said:

Jan 24, 2016 15:17:11 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If a majority of the rest of us view a symbol a certain way than that is what the symbol stands for in popular culture and opinion. What it historically stood for, or what it means to a single individual doesn't matter. I can personally think that the swastika stands for all things manly and awesome, but the rest of the society in which I live thinks that it stands for racism and genocide so if I fly one I shouldn't be surprised when most people think I'm a racist asshole and the few people that give me props for it would actually be racist assholes that I want nothing to do with.

If you personally think that the battle flag of northern Virginia stands for southern values, cool story bro. The rest of us think it's a convenient way for racist assholes to publicly out themselves. Fly that thing with pride, but know that most of us think you're purposefully labeling yourself a racist redneck. It's a free country though, no rule against being an idiot in public.

My, what pretentiousness.  I must have missed the election where you were put in charge of deciding what most people think. 

Personally, I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject, my friend.

[dondub]

My thoughts are all over the two threads about this flag.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Jan 24, 2016 16:43:44 GMT -5 dondub said:

My thoughts are all over the two threads about this flag.

I am aware. I just like to hear Verrip's thoughts because they are alwyas independent and never towing the party line.

[dondub]

Is there a "party line" about the Confederate flag?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Well there certainly isn't a consensus...

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2016 15:17:11 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If a majority of the rest of us view a symbol a certain way than that is what the symbol stands for in popular culture and opinion. What it historically stood for, or what it means to a single individual doesn't matter. I can personally think that the swastika stands for all things manly and awesome, but the rest of the society in which I live thinks that it stands for racism and genocide so if I fly one I shouldn't be surprised when most people think I'm a racist asshole and the few people that give me props for it would actually be racist assholes that I want nothing to do with.

If you personally think that the battle flag of northern Virginia stands for southern values, cool story bro. The rest of us think it's a convenient way for racist assholes to publicly out themselves. Fly that thing with pride, but know that most of us think you're purposefully labeling yourself a racist redneck. It's a free country though, no rule against being an idiot in public.

Glad you agree it's a free country, bro.

Thinking it's racist if you are out and about and see someone flying it means the "thinker" is "being an idiot in public"... so... I'm glad you are o.k. with that too.

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2016 15:33:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Two documents:
Constitution of the Confederate States
The Constitution of the United States

I encourage people to find the differences between the two. I think it illustrates well the differences between those two "countries".

No need to put "countries" in quotes like that, as both were legitimate countries (one still is).

I encourage people to read both of them as well... and find the similarities (like that fact that both expressly allowed slavery).

The biggest reason the documents are so similar is: The Constitution was a very well written foundation for a government. The problem (and why the South seceded) is that the Federal Government wasn't abiding by it. The South never had a problem with the US Constitution... they had a problem with the Federal Government (at least when the North was "the side in control") ignoring it.

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2016 15:38:17 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

My, what pretentiousness. I must have missed the election where you were put in charge of deciding what most people think.

You're missing the point. I didn't decide. The public did. Go look up the polling yourself. When they ask Americans if we think the confederate battle flag is a symbol of racism a majority of us say yes. Society decided, based on what the flag was used as a symbol for historically and up to the present day, that on balance it's a symbol of racism. You don't have to agree, but to a majority of the citizenry of your own country that's the statement you make when you use that symbol. What I, or any other single individual, thinks that it stands for is completely irrelevant to what our culture has decided that the symbol stands for. Make sense now?

You do know that it's possible for "society" to be wrong... right?

When "society" thought gay marriage was immoral... they were wrong.
When "society" thought slavery was good... they were wrong.
When "society" thought women were property of their fathers and husbands... they were wrong.
When "society" thought the Earth was flat... they were wrong.

Just because "society" thinks one thing doesn't make it reality.

[dondub]

Just because you think something different doesn't make you right.

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2016 19:42:25 GMT -5 dondub said:

Just because you think something different doesn't make you right.

No argument. I agree 100%

Something BEING right makes it right. I just usually agree with "right" things (I can't help it... it's usually the logical choice).

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2016 19:51:58 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 23, 2016 2:11:46 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

On a strange note.... there seems to be something screwy with my experiment...

My "old" avatar on the other site keeps reasserting itself (it did it twice, but don't know how long the flag was up... so it's possible no one actually saw it). I think I fixed the problem though. I was using a "link" to a web hosted version. This time I replaced the uploaded avatar file. We'll see if that fixes it.

Well... at least I know it wasn't something I'd done wrong... LOL.

Apparently the Admin doesn't want me to display that flag (not going to comment further on that though).

So.... no experiment. Well... I tried.

ETA: O.k. ... it may not have been the Admin that did it. Admin says he didn't know about it but could fix it. The flag is back up and we'll see what happens.

And the experiment is cancelled due to ignorance...

[Sum Dum Gai]

You do know that it's possible for "society" to be wrong... right?



When "society" thought gay marriage was immoral... they were wrong.

When "society" thought slavery was good... they were wrong.

When "society" thought women were property of their fathers and husbands... they were wrong.

When "society" thought the Earth was flat... they were wrong.



Just because "society" thinks one thing doesn't make it reality.

Agree completely, but we're talking about a symbol. There is no right or wrong with a symbol. It means whatever the society using the symbol thinks that it means. A large chunk of our society thinks that particular symbol stands for racism and hatred. Those are the values they think you're espousing and supporting when you use the symbol.

Just like if I put rainbow stickers and flags on my car and home. Society would think I'm supporting gay marriage, gay equality, or coming out of the closet. I might personally think that rainbows stand for peace and happiness. Doesn't matter. Society has attached a certain meaning to the symbol I'm using. I can personally believe whatever I want, but it won't change what the symbol means to everyone around me.

You personally think the battle flag of a secessionist army that fought the United States stands for civility, being nice to your neighbors, or whatever the hell southerners think are southern values that us yankees can't possibly understand. The rest of us think it stands for racism and ignorance. It is what it is.

Another interesting tidbit. When southern people of color are polled on whether the confederate flag stands for southern pride or racism they respond somewhere north of 72% that it's a symbol of racism. Kind of interesting that only a majority of white southern folks see it as a symbol of southern pride wouldn't you say? Why do they as a group have such a wildly different attitude about it than the colored folks that live right across the street and have been in the south for generations?

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 16:57:00 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

You do know that it's possible for "society" to be wrong... right?



When "society" thought gay marriage was immoral... they were wrong.

When "society" thought slavery was good... they were wrong.

When "society" thought women were property of their fathers and husbands... they were wrong.

When "society" thought the Earth was flat... they were wrong.



Just because "society" thinks one thing doesn't make it reality.

Agree completely, but we're talking about a symbol. There is no right or wrong with a symbol. It means whatever the society using the symbol thinks that it means. A large chunk of our society thinks that particular symbol stands for racism and hatred. Those are the values they think you're espousing and supporting when you use the symbol.

Just like if I put rainbow stickers and flags on my car and home. Society would think I'm supporting gay marriage, gay equality, or coming out of the closet. I might personally think that rainbows stand for peace and happiness. Doesn't matter. Society has attached a certain meaning to the symbol I'm using. I can personally believe whatever I want, but it won't change what the symbol means to everyone around me.

You personally think the battle flag of a secessionist army that fought the United States stands for civility, being nice to your neighbors, or whatever the hell southerners think are southern values that us yankees can't possibly understand. The rest of us think it stands for racism and ignorance. It is what it is.

Another interesting tidbit. When southern people of color are polled on whether the confederate flag stands for southern pride or racism they respond somewhere north of 72% that it's a symbol of racism. Kind of interesting that only a majority of white southern folks see it as a symbol of southern pride wouldn't you say? Why do they as a group have such a wildly different attitude about it than the colored folks that live right across the street and have been in the south for generations?

First bolded: I disagree. You can easily be "Right" or "Wrong" about what a symbol stands for. If I say "the 'STP' logo stands for 'BP'"... I'm absolutely wrong. If you (or anyone) say(s) "The Flags of the Confederacy stand for racism" you (they) are absolutely wrong.

Second bolded: Assuming your number is correct... that means when "people of color are polled", 28% of them actually understand/know the truth.

[billisonboard]

Jan 25, 2016 18:49:31 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... You can easily be "Right" or "Wrong" about what a symbol stands for. If I say "the 'STP' logo stands for 'BP'"... I'm absolutely wrong. ...

"symbol" and "logo" are not interchangeable.

[mmhmm]

Jan 25, 2016 16:57:00 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

You do know that it's possible for "society" to be wrong... right?



When "society" thought gay marriage was immoral... they were wrong.

When "society" thought slavery was good... they were wrong.

When "society" thought women were property of their fathers and husbands... they were wrong.

When "society" thought the Earth was flat... they were wrong.



Just because "society" thinks one thing doesn't make it reality.

Agree completely, but we're talking about a symbol. There is no right or wrong with a symbol. It means whatever the society using the symbol thinks that it means. A large chunk of our society thinks that particular symbol stands for racism and hatred. Those are the values they think you're espousing and supporting when you use the symbol.

Just like if I put rainbow stickers and flags on my car and home. Society would think I'm supporting gay marriage, gay equality, or coming out of the closet. I might personally think that rainbows stand for peace and happiness. Doesn't matter. Society has attached a certain meaning to the symbol I'm using. I can personally believe whatever I want, but it won't change what the symbol means to everyone around me.

You personally think the battle flag of a secessionist army that fought the United States stands for civility, being nice to your neighbors, or whatever the hell southerners think are southern values that us yankees can't possibly understand. The rest of us think it stands for racism and ignorance. It is what it is.

Another interesting tidbit. When southern people of color are polled on whether the confederate flag stands for southern pride or racism they respond somewhere north of 72% that it's a symbol of racism. Kind of interesting that only a majority of white southern folks see it as a symbol of southern pride wouldn't you say? Why do they as a group have such a wildly different attitude about it than the colored folks that live right across the street and have been in the south for generations?

I don't think the majority of southern whites see that flag as a symbol of southern pride anymore. Some do, but I don't think they're in the majority anymore. The south has changed and is continuing to change ... and grow.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 18:57:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 25, 2016 18:49:31 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... You can easily be "Right" or "Wrong" about what a symbol stands for. If I say "the 'STP' logo stands for 'BP'"... I'm absolutely wrong. ...

"symbol" and "logo" are not interchangeable.

You are right... but not for the reason you think.

You are right in that they are not interchangeable... but that's because symbols can't always be logos... however logos can ALWAYS be symbols.

If I see the following flag (and ONLY this one) flying by some dude's camper:

And I say "Man... that dude sure loves him some BP!"... Would you say I am more likely to be right or wrong?

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 19:02:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 25, 2016 16:57:00 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Agree completely, but we're talking about a symbol. There is no right or wrong with a symbol. It means whatever the society using the symbol thinks that it means. A large chunk of our society thinks that particular symbol stands for racism and hatred. Those are the values they think you're espousing and supporting when you use the symbol.

Just like if I put rainbow stickers and flags on my car and home. Society would think I'm supporting gay marriage, gay equality, or coming out of the closet. I might personally think that rainbows stand for peace and happiness. Doesn't matter. Society has attached a certain meaning to the symbol I'm using. I can personally believe whatever I want, but it won't change what the symbol means to everyone around me.

You personally think the battle flag of a secessionist army that fought the United States stands for civility, being nice to your neighbors, or whatever the hell southerners think are southern values that us yankees can't possibly understand. The rest of us think it stands for racism and ignorance. It is what it is.

Another interesting tidbit. When southern people of color are polled on whether the confederate flag stands for southern pride or racism they respond somewhere north of 72% that it's a symbol of racism. Kind of interesting that only a majority of white southern folks see it as a symbol of southern pride wouldn't you say? Why do they as a group have such a wildly different attitude about it than the colored folks that live right across the street and have been in the south for generations?

I don't think the majority of southern whites see that flag as a symbol of southern pride anymore. Some do, but I don't think they're in the majority anymore. The south has changed and is continuing to change ... and grow.

Losing the truth about history isn't what most would consider "growth".

[billisonboard]

Jan 25, 2016 19:24:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 25, 2016 18:57:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

"symbol" and "logo" are not interchangeable.

You are right... but not for the reason you think.

You are right in that they are not interchangeable... but that's because symbols can't always be logos... however logos can ALWAYS be symbols.

If I see the following flag (and ONLY this one) flying by some dude's camper:

And I say "Man... that dude sure loves him some BP!"... Would you say I am more likely to be right or wrong?

Great effort.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 19:32:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:24:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

You are right... but not for the reason you think.

You are right in that they are not interchangeable... but that's because symbols can't always be logos... however logos can ALWAYS be symbols.

If I see the following flag (and ONLY this one) flying by some dude's camper:

And I say "Man... that dude sure loves him some BP!"... Would you say I am more likely to be right or wrong?

Great effort.

Interesting evasion of the question...

[billisonboard]

Jan 25, 2016 19:37:34 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:32:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Great effort.

Interesting evasion of the question...

The logo is not a symbol so the question is irrelevant.

[mmhmm]

Jan 25, 2016 19:25:36 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:02:23 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I don't think the majority of southern whites see that flag as a symbol of southern pride anymore. Some do, but I don't think they're in the majority anymore. The south has changed and is continuing to change ... and grow.

Losing the truth about history isn't what most would consider "growth".

Who said anything about losing the truth about history? The south is changing.  New people are coming in. Southern history isn't their history and they're not required to embrace it. As I've made quite clear, my whole fam-damly was from the south and I don't agree with you about couching a battle flag as representative of southern pride.  If I were looking for something to do that, I'd look to the Flags of the Confederacy, not a state battle flag. Frankly, I don't think it's necessary. I'm familiar with history and I'm not going to lose that familiarity because I don't have a flag hanging on my car, or my house, or my cat. There's much in the south I know and love of which I'm proud. There are also things of which I'm not so proud. I'd be willing to bet you people from other parts of the country feel exactly the same way.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 19:39:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:37:34 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Interesting evasion of the question...

The logo is not a symbol so the question is irrelevant.

The logo IS a symbol... but ignoring that: The flag with the logo IS a symbol... so the question is very relevant.


ETA:

LOGO
noun (plural logos)



A symbol or other design adopted by an organization to identify its products, uniform, vehicles, etc.


Source: OED

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 19:41:54 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:25:36 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Losing the truth about history isn't what most would consider "growth".

Who said anything about losing the truth about history? The south is changing.  New people are coming in. Southern history isn't their history and they're not required to embrace it. As I've made quite clear, my whole fam-damly was from the south and I don't agree with you about couching a battle flag as representative of southern pride.  If I were looking for something to do that, I'd look to the Flags of the Confederacy, not a state battle flag. Frankly, I don't think it's necessary. I'm familiar with history and I'm not going to lose that familiarity because I don't have a flag hanging on my car, or my house, or my cat. There's much in the south I know and love of which I'm proud. There are also things of which I'm not so proud. I'd be willing to bet you people from other parts of the country feel exactly the same way.

Giving in to those that call the confederate flags "racist" is "losing the truth about history". That's what happening here with this symbol of the South. It's being unfairly tied to racism. As I said upthread... I MIGHT have some sympathy if the other icons used by racists were treated equally... but they aren't.

[mmhmm]

Jan 25, 2016 20:03:41 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:41:54 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Who said anything about losing the truth about history? The south is changing.  New people are coming in. Southern history isn't their history and they're not required to embrace it. As I've made quite clear, my whole fam-damly was from the south and I don't agree with you about couching a battle flag as representative of southern pride.  If I were looking for something to do that, I'd look to the Flags of the Confederacy, not a state battle flag. Frankly, I don't think it's necessary. I'm familiar with history and I'm not going to lose that familiarity because I don't have a flag hanging on my car, or my house, or my cat. There's much in the south I know and love of which I'm proud. There are also things of which I'm not so proud. I'd be willing to bet you people from other parts of the country feel exactly the same way.

Giving in to those that call the confederate flags "racist" is "losing the truth about history". That's what happening here with this symbol of the South. It's being unfairly tied to racism. As I said upthread... I MIGHT have some sympathy if the other icons used by racists were treated equally... but they aren't.

I don't give a damn what other people think and I don't give a damn what other people do. I stated what I believe to make sense. It doesn't make a lick of sense to me to insist southern pride is represented by some state battle flag. I see that as ludicrous. People don't call confederate flags racist. They call the state battle flags racist. I've not ever heard anyone call any of the flags of the Confederacy racist.  That's because they don't know what they are because people are trying to pass off a battle flag as the flag of the Confederacy. The battle flag of Virginia is not a symbol of the bloody south! It's a symbol of Virginia at the time of the Civil War, as is the battle flag of Tennessee. That's all it is unless you choose to imbue it with something more. That's your choice. It isn't mine.  I know more about history than that. You're more  than welcome to put your sympathy elsewhere if you think people like me have respect for a flag with a Nazi swastika on it. That's another symbol of hate and I'm pretty sure nobody is flying it to represent German pride - at least, nobody who isn't a skinhead.

Done with this foolish argument.

[billisonboard]

Jan 25, 2016 19:55:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:39:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

The logo is not a symbol so the question is irrelevant.

The logo IS a symbol... but ignoring that: The flag with the logo IS a symbol... so the question is very relevant.


ETA:

LOGO
noun (plural logos)



A symbol or other design adopted by an organization to identify its products, uniform, vehicles, etc.


Source: OED

Got me there. When the symbol is clearly attached to a very specific product and someone makes the error of attaching it to a very specific different product, I would say it was bullshit of them to do so. However, if BP were to take over the STP brand, then you would be correct with your connecting the two.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Seems to me that the flag below would convey the same kind of anti big government message, yet it's something the whole country could agree on. but it's one of my favorites..

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2016 21:34:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 25, 2016 19:55:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

The logo IS a symbol... but ignoring that: The flag with the logo IS a symbol... so the question is very relevant.


ETA:

Got me there. When the symbol is clearly attached to a very specific product and someone makes the error of attaching it to a very specific different product, I would say it was bullshit of them to do so. However, if BP were to take over the STP brand, then you would be correct with your connecting the two.

But we aren't talking about BP itself taking it over (that would be like, if the Union won, but then MADE the South racist somehow and kept the original flags)... we are talking about BP USERS (racists, that actually had nothing to do with the South) taking it over improperly vis-a-vis a "This STP flag represents my love of all things BP related Yay!" mentality of some STP flag wavers (just as racists have taken over the confederate symbol improperly)... and not even a large percentage in comparison to the number of the people that could see the flag waving at that!

[mmhmm]

Jan 25, 2016 22:08:47 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Seems to me that the flag below would convey the same kind of anti big government message, yet it's something the whole country could agree on. but it's one of my favorites..

I wouldn't object to that one, Aham, but iit wouldn't really represent my attitudes. I'm more in favor of smiles and a hand of welcome than I am a flag of warning. I know, I know. Rainbows and unicorns. S'okay, though. I like unicorns.  

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

I hear ya, you know I do.

To me it's a signal that people are ready to stand up and take care of each other instead of having the Government take care of things.

You could have something like this..

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2016 21:08:40 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Jan 22, 2016 14:45:04 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Fit's right in with the "I own gun's but" comments.   You would have to of read the previous thread on the Confederate flag a while back, to get the two black guys with the flag on the back of their truck story, but don't let me stop you from jumping to ignorant conclusions though.  I can almost hear them talking when they were designing the flag. "This is the one that whites will use to show their racial hatred for Negroes". 

Of course it was not designed as a racist symbol.  It is now.  Sorry that happened to the people that honestly view it as 'heritage'.  I'd suggest they find another symbol to use.  Hitler ruined the toothbrush moustache and the swastika- not too many people think about the history when they see one.

I'm a little old fashioned.  I would suggest that the racists subverting the meaning of the flag find a different symbol.  The meaning behind the joke in Reply #143.  (Get it now?)  I don't follow the latest trend in media induced symbolism.