Confederate Battle Flag.

[gregintenn]

Later,  Google "The Tariff of Abominations"

The causes for the Civil war were varied and many. Unfair taxation of the southern states was a big part of it. Slavery definitely was an issue involved as well. It was NOT the main, or even one of the main causes.

[zibazinski]

Why do you bother?

[zibazinski]

Jan 17, 2016 15:40:11 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Later,  Google "The Tariff of Abominations"

The causes for the Civil war were varied and many. Unfair taxation of the southern states was a big part of it. Slavery definitely was an issue involved as well. It was NOT the main, or even one of the main causes.

Sorry, Greg, that was for you. My Daddy always said only a fool argues with another one.

[zibazinski]

Remember what I told you about fish wives.

[gregintenn]

I guess I'm a fool. I enjoy a good discussion. It's a shame some get all out of shape when what the believe gets called into question.

I'm a dumbass about most things, but I've spent a great deal of time studying the civil war, and southern U.S. history. I don't mean gov approved history text books, but reading many different points of view, and visiting many different battle sites.

What my children are being taught today and what happened according to what I've found aren't even close.

They say history is written by the victors. I guess this case is no different.

[zibazinski]

You ought to hear from a native Hawaiian. That'll shake your core. Not many of them left.

[zibazinski]

My grandfather knew one during WW2. We visit him every time we go to Honolulu. He has a very different point of view than the ones put in history books.

[gregintenn]

Jan 17, 2016 16:16:50 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

My grandfather knew one during WW2. We visit him every time we go to Honolulu. He has a very different point of view than the ones put in history books.

I imagine so. I know very little about the History of Hawaii. His story would no doubt be very interesting.



The civil war diary I have is interesting, as it is from a foot soldier's point of view, where most historical accounts were from a general's point of view.

Not once in the entire thing did the guy mention anything political, nor did he disparage his enemies. I got the feeling that most of the boys fighting really didn't give a rat's ass one way or the other, and just wanted to go home. He certainly never mentioned slavery. To refresh, he fought on the Northern side.

[dondub]

My Daddy always said only a fool argues with another one.

Sorry, laterbloomer. I guess you are a race baiter, an ignorant follower, AND a fool according to those supporting the Confederate flag as having no relationship at all with racism. I do appreciate your attempts at having a civil discussion (no pun intended) with these nice folks.

[gregintenn]

Jan 17, 2016 16:34:04 GMT -5 dondub said:

My Daddy always said only a fool argues with another one.

Sorry, laterbloomer. I guess you are a race baiter, an ignorant follower, AND a fool according to those supporting the Confederate flag as having no relationship at all with racism. I do appreciate your attempts at having a civil discussion (no pun intended) with these nice folks.

Now that brought a lot to the discussion.

[mmhmm]

Okay, deminmaine asked once. I'm going to tell you this time. The insults and name-calling will stop now. Otherwise, the thread will be locked and posts will be removed. The nastiness stops right here - from all of you. You can disagree civilly or you can stop posting. What you do is up to you.

mmhmm, Administrator

[mroped]

I never heard until last year about the Confederate Flag standing for slavery and racism and what not. I always tought that it was simply the symbol of the Confederate States during the civil war.
I even studied about it sometime in high school and was always about the symbolism of it: Confederate States of America. Period.
No mention of slavery, racism or anything like it.
And that was 5000 miles away.
What part of the flag symbolizes slavery? What part stands for racism?

Should we also remove all crosses and other symbols because at some point or another bad things were done under that banner?


Example: I believe that the Boy Scouts of America is a place where young children are indoctrinated to follow blindly. Not even gonna mention the rituals involved in their activities: salute, pledge etc. It reminds me of my young years growing up in a communist society. It was horrible, horrible and I feel offended by the sight of their uniforms and neckties. They stand for dictatorship and indoctrination. They should remove all symbols pertaining to them.
And trust me I can prove that too!

The point is that not ALL feel the same and I learned to accepted for what it is( indoctrination ) and get on with my life.

Let the flag be!
What else? 

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 16:29:29 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Jan 17, 2016 16:16:50 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

My grandfather knew one during WW2. We visit him every time we go to Honolulu. He has a very different point of view than the ones put in history books.

I imagine so. I know very little about the History of Hawaii. His story would no doubt be very interesting.



The civil war diary I have is interesting, as it is from a foot soldier's point of view, where most historical accounts were from a general's point of view.

Not once in the entire thing did the guy mention anything political, nor did he disparage his enemies. I got the feeling that most of the boys fighting really didn't give a rat's ass one way or the other, and just wanted to go home. He certainly never mentioned slavery. To refresh, he fought on the Northern side.

Greg when you have to dig that hard to make the argument that it isn't about slavery doesn't it occur to you that the majority of people think that it is? Talking about getting emotional about an antique flag, why do you get so worked up about it?

[Deleted]

I even studied about it sometime in high school and was always about the symbolism of it: Confederate States of America. Period.

No mention of slavery, racism or anything like it.

How do you study the Confederacy and the civil war and not hear about slavery?

I remember being a kid and seeing the flag on the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazard and thinking it was weird. There were also no black people in that show which I found really weird for a show based in the south. But Bo and Luke were cute so my 11 year old self let it slide.

[mroped]

When talking about a flag, typically the discussion goes like this:
collor: red, white and blue
Signifficance: red field- blah, blah; blue cross- blah, blah; white stars- one for each state of the confederacy.
stands for: confederate states of america- 1860-1865

The Southern states seceded from the Union on a dispute over states rights. While slavery was touted by the north as the reason for secession(and the true reason) the southern states never admitted.
The flag is part of American heritage and segments/sections of it are still part of some states flags today.

There was some talk about how rebellious factions are using the flag as a symbol to perpetrate nefarious actions and how it could be misconstrued as standing for the rights of a white minority to own slaves. It was never intended for that purpose.

Thinking that would be a direct affront to the memory of General Lee, the greatest military mind of American history. He never fought to support slavery.
If you see it otherwise, all I can say is that is your right but you cannot infringe on the rights of another to display a symbol as such on private property. It stinks when the law works both ways!
 

[gregintenn]

Jan 17, 2016 17:29:15 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 17, 2016 16:29:29 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

I imagine so. I know very little about the History of Hawaii. His story would no doubt be very interesting.



The civil war diary I have is interesting, as it is from a foot soldier's point of view, where most historical accounts were from a general's point of view.

Not once in the entire thing did the guy mention anything political, nor did he disparage his enemies. I got the feeling that most of the boys fighting really didn't give a rat's ass one way or the other, and just wanted to go home. He certainly never mentioned slavery. To refresh, he fought on the Northern side.

Greg when you have to dig that hard to make the argument that it isn't about slavery doesn't it occur to you that the majority of people think that it is? Talking about getting emotional about an antique flag, why do you get so worked up about it?

Frankly Later, I'm sick of all the misinformation that is considered common knowledge today. I also don't like where I live, and my way of life vilified because of it.

Furthermore, I believe slavery is wrong and evil. I've never owned a slave, and to my knowledge, neither has anyone in my family. I'm a direct descendant of John Adams. Even he never owned slaves.

Slavery, in a different form, continues today here. Now it is in the form of using illegal immigrant labor for low wages. They have no recourse for being wronged or being mistreated, because they fear reporting these things would lead to their punishment because they are also breaking the law. This is just as wrong. I hate the mistreatment of people in any manner.

The confederacy began because of the government threat to their way of life. Indeed, slavery was a part of that, but a very small part in the grand scheme of things at the time.

Racism would be a thing of the past were it not for the race baiters I mentioned earlier. You can assign the label of racism to me if you like, but that doesn't make it true.

Other than a remembrance of a dark historical time, in my opinion, the Confederate flag really stands for nothing today. We're all Americans and live under the stars and stripes.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 18:23:47 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Jan 17, 2016 17:29:15 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Greg when you have to dig that hard to make the argument that it isn't about slavery doesn't it occur to you that the majority of people think that it is? Talking about getting emotional about an antique flag, why do you get so worked up about it?

Frankly Later, I'm sick of all the misinformation that is considered common knowledge today. I also don't like where I live, and my way of life vilified because of it.

Furthermore, I believe slavery is wrong and evil. I've never owned a slave, and to my knowledge, neither has anyone in my family. I'm a direct descendant of John Adams. Even he never owned slaves.

Slavery, in a different form, continues today here. Now it is in the form of using illegal immigrant labor for low wages. They have no recourse for being wronged or being mistreated, because they fear reporting these things would lead to their punishment because they are also breaking the law. This is just as wrong. I hate the mistreatment of people in any manner.

The confederacy began because of the government threat to their way of life. Indeed, slavery was a part of that, but a very small part in the grand scheme of things at the time.

Racism would be a thing of the past were it not for the race baiters I mentioned earlier. You can assign the label of racism to me if you like, but that doesn't make it true.

Other than a remembrance of a dark historical time, in my opinion, the Confederate flag really stands for nothing today. We're all Americans and live under the stars and stripes.

Talking about being butt hurt and oversensitive  I am talking about nothing but the insistence of waving the Confederate flag these days. I don't think you do support slavery which is why it baffles me that you would want to be associated with something that would make so many people think you are a proud racist. Both those that would like that about you and those that would hate it.

Racism is not created by the people that name it and point it out. I'm not a fan of Al or Jesse but they did not create racism. It's there.

[dondub]

Racism would be a thing of the past were it not for the race baiters I mentioned earlier.

That is utter hogwash. I seriously doubt the racist dooofus that walked into that church and gunned down 9 people had Al and Jesse as his raison d'etre.

[gregintenn]

They certainly didn't create it, but definitely perpetuate it. Follow the money.

I don't usually care what people think as long as I haven't wronged them.

I'll tell you something that embarrasses me. You seem to be quite well versed in the goings on of our country, and I know next to nothing about yours.

I need to correct that.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 14:02:20 GMT -5 dondub said:

The fact that they don't understand/know history is their problem... it's not the problem of people that DO understand it.


Even you eventually admitted in a post above that slavery may have been a component of the Civil War. You often look for consistency, correct? The history of the Confederate flag, which so many do know, is that it has become a racist symbol.

I never said it wasn't a component of the civil war. Little known factoid before you go calling slavery itself as practiced back then, "racist"... there were more races than blacks as slaves... including people of the white race.

Jan 17, 2016 14:02:20 GMT -5 dondub said:

Plus they don't get to pick and choose. If it's "racist" because it was misused by racists then the Cross and the US flag MUST BE racist too. When they start calling those things racist as well, they will at least get credit from me for consistency.

The KKK did turn crosses on fire into a racist symbol and people such as Rev. Farakkhan believe the US flag is such. Like you, they are entitled to their opinion even if others disagree.

I'm not just talking about the burning crosses. They also use the cross themselves, to "prove" how Christian their racism is. It's at their meetings, it's on their robes, et cetera. Heck, some Klan rallies are even held in churches!

T think you misunderstand me though... I am against calling them "Racist symbols" because of their MISUSE. Don't blame the symbol... blame the misuser.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 14:52:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 17, 2016 9:05:41 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Not sure how it works in Canada, but in the U.S., one doesn't have the right to not be offended.

If a likeness of an antique, historical  battleflag has that great an effect on a person, they have problems.

In Canada when we are offended we say so as loud and clear as we can and make the lives of those offending us as uncomfortable as they are making ours.

If there was a flag that meant I was sorry you are a free man and would rather you and your family were slaves you would be offended as well and I am very sure you would have a strong reaction.

If there actually WAS a flag that "said" that... I'd agree with you 100%.

Too bad for your point and this thread though that that flag is NOT any of the Confederate flags.

[gregintenn]

Jan 17, 2016 19:03:15 GMT -5 dondub said:

Racism would be a thing of the past were it not for the race baiters I mentioned earlier.

That is utter hogwash. I seriously doubt the racist dooofus that walked into that church and gunned down 9 people had Al and Jesse as his raison d'etre.

No. He obviously had mental illness issues.

Are all the folks in Chicago shooting one another racist as well?

[dondub]

No. He obviously had mental illness issues.

Racism is a mental illness.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 17:29:15 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 17, 2016 16:29:29 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

I imagine so. I know very little about the History of Hawaii. His story would no doubt be very interesting.



The civil war diary I have is interesting, as it is from a foot soldier's point of view, where most historical accounts were from a general's point of view.

Not once in the entire thing did the guy mention anything political, nor did he disparage his enemies. I got the feeling that most of the boys fighting really didn't give a rat's ass one way or the other, and just wanted to go home. He certainly never mentioned slavery. To refresh, he fought on the Northern side.

Greg when you have to dig that hard to make the argument that it isn't about slavery doesn't it occur to you that the majority of people think that it is? Talking about getting emotional about an antique flag, why do you get so worked up about it?

What the majority think and what the reality actually is aren't always the same though...

Are you suggesting that if you know the truth you should just stay silent if it differs from what the majority believes? I can't live like that. I won't.

[gregintenn]

Jan 17, 2016 19:15:22 GMT -5 dondub said:

No. He obviously had mental illness issues.

Racism is a mental illness.

My vote is ignorance, but mental illness might fit as well.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 18:59:14 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 17, 2016 18:23:47 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Frankly Later, I'm sick of all the misinformation that is considered common knowledge today. I also don't like where I live, and my way of life vilified because of it.

Furthermore, I believe slavery is wrong and evil. I've never owned a slave, and to my knowledge, neither has anyone in my family. I'm a direct descendant of John Adams. Even he never owned slaves.

Slavery, in a different form, continues today here. Now it is in the form of using illegal immigrant labor for low wages. They have no recourse for being wronged or being mistreated, because they fear reporting these things would lead to their punishment because they are also breaking the law. This is just as wrong. I hate the mistreatment of people in any manner.

The confederacy began because of the government threat to their way of life. Indeed, slavery was a part of that, but a very small part in the grand scheme of things at the time.

Racism would be a thing of the past were it not for the race baiters I mentioned earlier. You can assign the label of racism to me if you like, but that doesn't make it true.

Other than a remembrance of a dark historical time, in my opinion, the Confederate flag really stands for nothing today. We're all Americans and live under the stars and stripes.

Talking about being butt hurt and oversensitive  I am talking about nothing but the insistence of waving the Confederate flag these days. I don't think you do support slavery which is why it baffles me that you would want to be associated with something that would make so many people think you are a proud racist. Both those that would like that about you and those that would hate it.

Racism is not created by the people that name it and point it out. I'm not a fan of Al or Jesse but they did not create racism. It's there.

I agree that they didn't create it... but they sure as hell keep it alive and well.

[mroped]

Don't sweat it Richard! It is a common mistake to confuse the Confederate Flag with the Confederate Battle Flag.
Thwpe Battle Flag was in fact brought forth for approval to become the Confederate Flag. It was turned down in favor of another.
The Battle Flag is in fact the flag that General Lee used while at the head of Northern Virginia Army. It is in fact more famous than the actual Confederate Flag. It might be because of Lee's fame.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 19:23:10 GMT -5 mroped said:

Don't sweat it Richard! It is a common mistake to confuse the Confederate Flag with the Confederate Battle Flag.
Thwpe Battle Flag was in fact brought forth for approval to become the Confederate Flag. It was turned down in favor of another.
The Battle Flag is in fact the flag that General Lee used while at the head of Northern Virginia Army. It is in fact more famous than the actual Confederate Flag. It might be because of Lee's fame.

LOL... I already knew that. I was trying not to more confuse the already confused.


ETA: for anyone that doesn't know, there were actually THREE "official" flags of the Confederacy.

1> The Stars and Bars
2> The Stainless Banner
3> The Blood-Stained Banner

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Jan 17, 2016 19:30:07 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 17, 2016 19:23:10 GMT -5 mroped said:

Don't sweat it Richard! It is a common mistake to confuse the Confederate Flag with the Confederate Battle Flag.
Thwpe Battle Flag was in fact brought forth for approval to become the Confederate Flag. It was turned down in favor of another.
The Battle Flag is in fact the flag that General Lee used while at the head of Northern Virginia Army. It is in fact more famous than the actual Confederate Flag. It might be because of Lee's fame.

LOL... I already knew that. I was trying not to more confuse the already confused.


ETA: for anyone that doesn't know, there were actually THREE "official" flags of the Confederacy.

1> The Stars and Bars
2> The Stainless Banner
3> The Blood-Stained Banner

As an aside: the Maple Leaf flag is also a flag of Confederation. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Confederation

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2016 20:45:15 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Jan 17, 2016 19:30:07 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

LOL... I already knew that. I was trying not to more confuse the already confused.


ETA: for anyone that doesn't know, there were actually THREE "official" flags of the Confederacy.

1> The Stars and Bars
2> The Stainless Banner
3> The Blood-Stained Banner

As an aside: the Maple Leaf flag is also a flag of Confederation. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Confederation

While true, that's a different Confederation.