yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Nov 10, 2015 9:54:50 GMT -5
Actually I read studies that indicated that people that lived near people that had a lot more material wealth than them were inherently less happy than those that were surrounded by people of the same means. With the gap between rich and poor widening and the explosion of mass media to make sure that we are all aware of it, there is another contender for why people are less happy. One that has nothing to do with women working. I suppose so, but unless you're going on record that women are more materialistic than men, we'd expect to see comparable declines in happiness across both genders, which we're not seeing. We've drifted too far off topic anyway. We started with P.M. Trudeau's cabinet. One study that I'd love to see but never have is whether or not more female politicians correlate with greater public deficits. Since our nations will eventually implode in spectacular fashion from our insurmountable debts and obligations (and the associated problems they create), that would be a reasonable basis on which to determine whether more women or fewer women in government is a good thing. It's not women who are materialistic, extroverts are materialistic. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 9:55:54 GMT -5
On my floor we have male admins. No one thinks less of them (they actually do better work than the female admins). Both are being trained for better paying positions. One of the female admins is very bitter about this. But consider this, if you are going to invest your time in training someone will you do it for a strong producer who doesn't take a bunch of unplanned days off, or would you invest the time in the person who has to be micro-managed, often has to re-do work, and takes off without notice during critical times? It's not always about gender, but for some people that will be all they see. My profession is about 50-50 gender wise, yet women make up less than 5% of the top ranks (it's actually closer to about 1%) in my specialty. Yea, if I'd been a dude I'd probably have been at my current level about 7-8 years earlier. BUT, unlike a lot of my female peers, I didn't take time off for family, go on a work-life balanced schedule, ask for a lightened work load, or even wait for the promotions to come. I went and asked for the difficult projects, the hard assignments and pushed way outside my comfort zone. Women tend to be less aggressive then men, that also impacts how we get promoted. Is it businesses' fault if women don't sell themselves as aggressively, or take bigger risks to get that promotion? Honest question, I don't know the answer to. I do know that if I weren't as aggressive as I am, I would not have the position I have today. You did all that and STILL had to wait 7-8 additional years.... Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:12:11 GMT -5
You did all that and STILL had to wait 7-8 additional years.... Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists. There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Nov 10, 2015 10:16:33 GMT -5
Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists. There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. This will not change.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Nov 10, 2015 10:17:57 GMT -5
Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists. There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. Not only that - there really shouldn't be a "male dominated sandbox", ESPECIALLY in accounting/tax The ONLY reason it is male dominated is for the reason Tina and Captain described. The place where I interviewed back in August was all-women accounting firm. Somehow they are in business.....
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Nov 10, 2015 10:18:17 GMT -5
You did all that and STILL had to wait 7-8 additional years.... Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists. See that wouldn't bother me. Maybe it's because in general I've had what I consider "positive" experiences. I'd likely make a joke about how I'm the only one in the room who passed 2nd grade, take the notes and move on. I don't really care, I'm still getting paid whether I take notes or just sit there. I'd be a "team player" and likely they'd maybe think again next meeting as I may have shamed them a little. I don't know, maybe with your specific group of men I also would have found that very insulting. I tend to work with the cast of BBT though, so I attribute most things to social awkwardness.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:23:33 GMT -5
There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. This will not change. I think it's only okay because people have accepted it for so long.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Nov 10, 2015 10:25:18 GMT -5
Yea, and so did a lot of my male peers AND they never achieved the position I did. My career didn't really take off until I got more aggressive about taking risks, calling attention to my accomplishments, and going way outside my comfort zone. Things that the successful guys whose positions I wanted did. I don't know how else to describe it. I'm playing in a male dominated sandbox so, if I want to win, I should learn how their game works. That's the point I'm trying to make in general (although there had to be some bias - but I have no way to measure that). I've been the only chick in a room full of dudes and asked to take notes because *snort* my handwriting was the neatest (ummm - no). This when there were several guys there further down the totem pole than me. So, yea - I know bias exists. There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. And here, IMHO - is part of the issue. I don't consider ambition and hard work unsavory traits. In fact, I'm not sure why you would consider these unsavory. It's rather unfair to say you don't want to do what others are willing to do, to get ahead, then direct insults at them when they are successful because they are willing to do what you won't.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 10, 2015 10:25:55 GMT -5
There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. This will not change. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 10, 2015 10:26:33 GMT -5
There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. And here, IMHO - is part of the issue. I don't consider ambition and hard work unsavory traits. In fact, I'm not sure why you would consider these unsavory. It's rather unfair to say you don't want to do what others are willing to do, to get ahead, then direct insults at them when they are successful because they are willing to do what you won't. That's the spirit. They're not bugs, they're features! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:29:31 GMT -5
There should be no game to learn (although I know there is one). IMO people shouldn't be proud of being workaholics or being willing to take on unsavory traits to get ahead. Hopefully this will change. And here, IMHO - is part of the issue. I don't consider ambition and hard work unsavory traits. In fact, I'm not sure why you would consider these unsavory. It's rather unfair to say you don't want to do what others are willing to do, to get ahead, then direct insults at them when they are successful because they are willing to do what you won't. are you implying that everyone who isn't wildly successful isn't hardworking or ambitious? I never said being ambitious or hardworking was a bad trait. I said that being a workaholic is (IMO). Making yourself be aggressive and more cutthroat is (IMO).
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Nov 10, 2015 10:30:33 GMT -5
I think it's only okay because people have accepted it for so long. Some people will always want to be the best. Work harder, cheat, do whatever it takes to get to the top. Others will be willing to work not quite so hard and cheat not quite so much, and so on and so on. Even in France I am sure there workaholics.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Nov 10, 2015 10:31:10 GMT -5
I don't think MJ2.0 was saying ambition and hard work were unsavory traits... just that the ways these attributes are noticed/rewarded in the modern workplace tend to skew toward men.
To use a very general example, a man and a woman may work equally hard on a project. The boss says "good job." The man responds, "Thanks, I thought the way I did XYZ was particularly effective." The woman defers the compliment and says something about how she couldn't have done it without the help of A, B, and C.
Both are hard workers, but the man is more likely to be promoted than the woman. And as is often the case IRL, the person taking the most credit may not be the person who put in the majority of the work.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Nov 10, 2015 10:32:05 GMT -5
I like to work efficiently, which is not always more.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:40:56 GMT -5
I like to work efficiently, which is not always more. then you're destined to be a drone forever. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Nov 10, 2015 10:44:21 GMT -5
I like to work efficiently, which is not always more. then you're destined to be a drone forever. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Yet somehow I am not upset at the world, well except for the fact that I have to work at all but we're all upset about that aren't we? Or no?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:44:43 GMT -5
my whole point earlier when sharing my work story is this: we can't keep the corporate world exactly the way it is and then complain when not enough women/minorities/etc. are getting higher up positions. All you're doing is acknowledging a discrepancy you are unwilling to address. Change requires change. If you don't want to change the unspoken rules of the corporate world, then you will continue to get the same results that you've been getting.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Nov 10, 2015 10:45:27 GMT -5
my whole point earlier when sharing my work story is this: we can't keep the corporate world exactly the way it is and then complain when not enough women/minorities/etc. are getting higher up positions. All you're doing is acknowledging a discrepancy you are unwilling to address. Change requires change. If you don't want to change the unspoken rules of the corporate world, then you will continue to get the same results that you've been getting. it's a white man's world.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:46:24 GMT -5
then you're destined to be a drone forever. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Yet somehow I am not upset at the world, well except for the fact that I have to work at all but we're all upset about that aren't we? Or no? I've been sick for 6 weeks straight. My nose is stuffed up, it feels like someone is both squeezing my head and pushing on my chest. Do you think I want to work today? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 10:59:47 GMT -5
The Captain, I wasn't trying to insult you or any other person who had to do all those things to get ahead. I guess my issue is that being "mean" is necessary to get ahead. No, I'm not surprised. I just wish there was a way to reward people for doing a good job without them having to yell about the fact that they did a good job. I'm trying to think about what I did to get promoted. I mastered my position quickly, I trained new associates, I asked my boss for more responsibilities. I was also ready to leave after 3 years and she knew that. I don't remember being aggressive or cutthroat, but I also work with over 70% women. Our group VP is definitely cutthroat and aggressive, but the men in her position in other departments don't seem as scary as she is. I wonder why...?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 10, 2015 11:04:56 GMT -5
The thing about all this is it comes down to perceptions people have of themselves and of others.
On one hand, gender discrimination is real, but it can also be perceived where it doesn't exist. Sometimes, people may not even be aware of their own perceptions.
Even the stats can be subject to perception and interpretation. Do women earn less because they aren't as aggressive, or are women not aggressive because of social conditioning and societal expectations.
Does the responsibility of change lie with men, women or both?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Nov 10, 2015 11:11:18 GMT -5
I think it's only okay because people have accepted it for so long. Some people will always want to be the best. Work harder, cheat, do whatever it takes to get to the top. Others will be willing to work not quite so hard and cheat not quite so much, and so on and so on. Even in France I am sure there workaholics. It's no an issue of being the best. It's an issue of what "being the best" entails. Being the best in one area of your life should not overtake your entire life.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Nov 10, 2015 11:12:06 GMT -5
Some people will always want to be the best. Work harder, cheat, do whatever it takes to get to the top. Others will be willing to work not quite so hard and cheat not quite so much, and so on and so on. Even in France I am sure there workaholics. It's no an issue of being the best. It's an issue of what "being the best" entails. Being the best in one area of your life should not overtake your entire life. but for some people it will. So they will rise to the top.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 11:14:05 GMT -5
it requires all of us to examine our own perceptions about men, women, minorities, young workers, older workers, and see what biases we may have. Then we need to re-evaluate them and change them if they need to be changed. Sorry, I had a mandatory seminar yesterday about diversity and inclusion in the workplace so it's almost exactly what's been discussed here. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 11:18:32 GMT -5
It's no an issue of being the best. It's an issue of what "being the best" entails. Being the best in one area of your life should not overtake your entire life. but for some people it will. So they will rise to the top. professionally... but is that the only real measure of success?
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Nov 10, 2015 11:23:30 GMT -5
but for some people it will. So they will rise to the top. professionally... but is that the only real measure of success? No, good looks is also a measure ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 10, 2015 11:29:52 GMT -5
Some people will always want to be the best. Work harder, cheat, do whatever it takes to get to the top. Others will be willing to work not quite so hard and cheat not quite so much, and so on and so on. Even in France I am sure there workaholics. It's no an issue of being the best. It's an issue of what "being the best" entails. Being the best in one area of your life should not overtake your entire life. But some people will always be willing to sacrifice every other aspect of their lives to be the best. Those people will rise to the top. It's like the olympics. To get the gold you have to have the natural ability AND be willing to work harder than everyone else.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 10, 2015 11:30:52 GMT -5
but for some people it will. So they will rise to the top. professionally... but is that the only real measure of success? That all depends on how you define success ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Nov 10, 2015 11:31:45 GMT -5
but for some people it will. So they will rise to the top. professionally... but is that the only real measure of success? Not to me. I would rather be a medium sized fish in a small pool versus a big fish in a big pool. I would be miserable trying to be a big shot, if I could even do it or have a chance to do it.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 10, 2015 11:37:09 GMT -5
professionally... but is that the only real measure of success? Not to me. I would rather be a medium sized fish in a small pool versus a big fish in a big pool. I would be miserable trying to be a big shot, if I could even do it or have a chance to do it. A-freakin-MEN!
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