hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 14, 2011 18:22:29 GMT -5
I believe it was really the doctors telling these people what they should do. This is a put up job for the dupes who don't seem to get it through their heads that the USA has had the cruelest and by far the most expensive health "system" in the modern world. Health Reform will be the most popular program ever when implemented, and when we get past bought off pub fear mongering. What a propaganda machine it is...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 14, 2011 18:23:21 GMT -5
I say the same thing to those who support open borders and "freedom of religion" for practitioners of brutal and backwards traditions. Either take an HIV and tuberculosis-ridden illegal alien or a wife-beating, female-circumcising radical Islamist into your home or shut up about it... Anyone willing to adopt ed? Anyone at all?
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 14, 2011 18:23:55 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 14, 2011 18:25:09 GMT -5
The point is not that many years ago, doctors and hospitals didn't have the tools necessary to extend life let alone cure what ever ailed a person. Nature took its course and people simply died. Medical technology is indifferent to life-much like nature. It is how we use this technology which matters. Extending a life for a day, week or month is not always in the best interest of the patient especially if they are terminally ill and heavily medicated to reduce excruciating pain or in a vegetative state with no hope of ever regaining consciousness. If technology is keeping that patient alive, and the patient would die if taken off the medical machines, should the patient be kept alive? It is understandable the family of the patient doesn't want to let go of their loved one. No one does. But there comes a time to show your love for your family member and simply stop all treatment and let them go as painlessly and peacefully as possible. That to me is love. I believe we are in agreement here - but I am not comfortable with the government telling me to do it. If old Doc Jones is getting 80% of his income billing government programs or if old Doc Jones gets a paycheck which accounts for 80% of his income from a government entity, is he "the government" in one, both, or neither situation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 18:35:22 GMT -5
Unbelievable that you are a moderator, Tenn. Seriously.
Ed-- I'll claim you, not to adopt, you seem to be grown to me. Mod elections in July, and I have picked my candidate. Should be an easy win. Never ONCE saw them insult or belittle anyone. July.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 18:36:18 GMT -5
Unbelievable that you are a moderator, Tenn. Seriously.
Ed-- I'll claim you, not to adopt, you seem to be grown to me. Mod elections in July, and I have picked my candidate. Should be an easy win. Never ONCE saw them insult or belittle anyone. July.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 14, 2011 18:37:23 GMT -5
LOL krickitt. ;D
No skin off my nose krickitt if I am not a mod in July. I no longer will have to hold back and can say what |I want to say.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 14, 2011 18:51:42 GMT -5
Speaking of dupes.. Tell me why you're against Health Reform, and I'll show you how you've been lied to. Duh. Turn off Fox/Rush/Bought off pubs and stop being a corporate/ greedy pub tool.
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 14, 2011 18:54:53 GMT -5
I'm being lied to every time I read one of your posts Demtroll...I'm just not buying it because you suck at propaganda...
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 14, 2011 18:56:45 GMT -5
You are clueless, and I haven't been lied to.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 14, 2011 18:57:57 GMT -5
You are clueless, and I haven't been lied to.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Mar 14, 2011 19:17:10 GMT -5
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 15, 2011 10:25:09 GMT -5
Exactly my point. Health care reform isn't giving us socialized medicine. What is it giving us? Healthcare reform is actually more like health insurance reform. It gives more people affordable access to health insurance that will actually cover you & you won't need to rely on an employer to get it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 15, 2011 10:34:54 GMT -5
No, the grey area is not "huge". It's a VERY short window. I don't believe you stop a beating heart. Preventing the implantation of a fertilized egg is NOT the same as burning an implanted fetus with a beating heart out of the womb with salt water, yanking limbs off with tweezers, or in the case of infanticidal abortions "late term", delivering a child except for the head, jabbing a hole in the back of its skull, and sucking its brains out-- that's murder. Period. No gray area. And that child has a natural, God given right to life.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 15, 2011 10:36:36 GMT -5
...or in the case of what Obama supported in IL (one of his very few votes that wasn't merely "present"), you don't have the right to let a baby that survives a botched "late term" abortion die in a janitorial supply closet because the mother "intended" to have an abortion.
And they call US the "extremists".
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 15, 2011 10:38:03 GMT -5
Healthcare reform is actually more like health insurance reform. It gives more people affordable access to health insurance that will actually cover you & you won't need to rely on an employer to get it. It gives people NO access. Insurance companies are simply not selling these policies. Three major players are OUT of the market already and we are headed towards one-size-fits-all, "single payer", government run, doomed to fail health care for "all" (none).
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 15, 2011 10:40:03 GMT -5
And completely forgetting the fact that it will NEVER be implemented.
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wyouser
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Post by wyouser on Mar 15, 2011 10:58:38 GMT -5
re post 21. Be careful. These same arguments were put forth in the 1930s ..incremental steps forward followed by temporary pullbacks when the public reacted...but eventually......full scale extermination for the Ouote/unquote undesireables
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 15, 2011 11:02:39 GMT -5
Ummm...not all abortions work that way. There are medical abortions that just use pharmaceuticals, not that much different than using the morning after pill. So, yes there is still a grey area - it isn't either morning after or D & C - there are intermediate options as well that don't involve an invasive procedure. And the heart doesn't start beating upon implantation, so using that as a guide for murder would still give a window of time to allow for abortions.
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Post by marjar on Mar 15, 2011 11:04:11 GMT -5
(CNN) -- A 1-year-old child whose family fought a Canadian hospital over whether he should be allowed to die will likely have an operation to allow the insertion of a breathing tube by the end of the week, his new hospital said.
Joseph Maraachli, widely known in the media as Baby Joseph, is being evaluated by doctors at SSM Cardinal Glennon Children's Medical Center, a Catholic hospital in St. Louis, hospital spokesman Bob Davidson said.
The hospital had planned to have a press conference on Tuesday but canceled it "because there is not yet a firm treatment plan," he said in a statement late Monday.
But the head of pediatrics at the hospital, Robert Wilmott, expects a tracheotomy to go ahead by the end of the week, the statement said.
The argument has been to do the tracheotomy so the baby can go home to die. It no longer appears this was the true intent.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 15, 2011 11:11:27 GMT -5
Not sure what you are basing this on. Some companies may leave the market, others will pop up - isn't that the basic idea of capitalism. In the mean time it starts giving people who previously had no access to insurance plans the ability to get on insurance.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Mar 15, 2011 18:44:05 GMT -5
I am curious about one of the biggest points that sold Obamacare. The "goal" was to provide health insurance, , , , health care under another name , , , , to everybody. "Everybody" includes those who have not had health care in the past.
Who is going to pay the insurance costs of the millions of people that didn't have that insurance before?
Like for instance. . . You are covered by health insurance but I am not. If you put me on your policy I will have something I didn't have before, , , I have health insurance and consequently I aloso can have my health care needs taken care of and they will be paid for by that insurance, , , , but your policy costs will go up. And as I use that insurance for medical care your policy costs will go up even more.
Or is there really a pie in the sky that I am missing? If so, who wants to put me on their insurance policy this afternoon? I have a serious pre-condition that needs care, but I don't have any insurance to cover it.
Any volunteers?
Heck, I'll even settle for an explanation of how the costs won't sky rocket.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 15, 2011 18:47:32 GMT -5
I am couious about one of the biggest points that sold Obamacare. The "goaL" was to provide health insurance, , , , health care under another name , , , , to everybody. "Everybody" includes those who have not had health care in the past. Who is going to pay the insurance costs of the megamillioons of people that didn't have that insurance before? Like for instance. . . You are covered by health insurance but I are not. If you put me on your policy I will have something I didn't have before, , , health insurance , , , , but your policy costs will go up. And if I use that insurance for medical care your policy costs will go up even more. Or is there really a pie in the sky that I am missing? If so, who wants to put me on their insurance policy this afternoon? I have a serious pre-conditin that needs care, but I don't have any insurance to cover it. Any volunteers? Heck, I'll even settle for an explanation of how the costs won't sky rocket. There is no explanation - we all know that the cost will go up - it just has to.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Mar 15, 2011 18:58:12 GMT -5
".......... There is no explanation - we all know that the cost will go up .........."
vonnie, I'm not at all convinced "we all know that the cost will go up". Several posts above indicate as much. I hope I can get some good analytical, , , , and reliable , , , , information from the people who made those posts. Maybe even an invitation to be put on their policies.
Should I hold my breath?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 15, 2011 19:00:06 GMT -5
".......... There is no explanation - we all know that the cost will go up .........." vonnie, I'm not at all convinced "we all know that the cost will go up". Several posts above indicate as much. I hope I can get some good analytical, , , , and reliable , , , , information from the people who made those posts. Maybe even an invitation to be put on their policies. Should I hold my breath? Welllll - not too long!
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 15, 2011 19:10:48 GMT -5
Yeah, when will people realize that what they are so afraid of & call death panels already exists. If anything, the health care reform should actually help this problem. Insurance won't be able to just kick you should you develop a condition, there will no longer be lifetime limits, & there will be certain treatments that insurance has to cover. We should be celebrating the fact that this legislation is actually helping to get rid of the "death panels" instead of worrying about things that it doesn't do. Everyone keeps saying they don't want govt. run health-insurance, but this won't put you on govt. run health insurance - there is no public option. So why do people keep comparing it to Canada's health system - it isn't the same at all. To scare idiots into opposing something that is set up to help them. They do this stuff all of the time so people will vote against their own interests. HCR cannot even be compared to Canada's single payer- or a true socialist system like France/UK (take away the fear and misinformation and it becomes quite apparent HCR falls way short on cutting costs (i.e. dead weight insurers). The system without the public option is doomed to fail and Medicare is doomed to bankrupt us-the dual system (insurance companies take good risks and profits/government pays for the rest) is stupid and unsustainable.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 15, 2011 19:17:25 GMT -5
Yeah, when will people realize that what they are so afraid of & call death panels already exists. If anything, the health care reform should actually help this problem. Insurance won't be able to just kick you should you develop a condition, there will no longer be lifetime limits, & there will be certain treatments that insurance has to cover. We should be celebrating the fact that this legislation is actually helping to get rid of the "death panels" instead of worrying about things that it doesn't do. Everyone keeps saying they don't want govt. run health-insurance, but this won't put you on govt. run health insurance - there is no public option. So why do people keep comparing it to Canada's health system - it isn't the same at all. To scare idiots into opposing something that is set up to help them. They do this stuff all of the time so people will vote against their own interests. HCR cannot even be compared to Canada's single payer- or a true socialist system like France/UK (take away the fear and misinformation and it becomes quite apparent HCR falls way short on cutting costs (i.e. dead weight insurers). The system without the public option is doomed to fail and Medicare is doomed to bankrupt us-the dual system (insurance companies take good risks and profits/government pays for the rest) is stupid and unsustainable. So = bottom line is - it will become a single payer system - and it was designed that way
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 15, 2011 19:35:15 GMT -5
The main benefits are an end to the worst practices of insurance companies and creation of a marketplace for policies that meet minimum quality standards for people who are otherwise screwed. I don't know about the rest of you but at a minimum I want my insurance policy to COVER medical problems that may happen to me (or my family) without bankrupting me in the process. It should be 100% portable, or if I so choose I should be able to buy into another policy without restrictions, 2 simple ideas that some states already require (community rating/guarantee issue). Insurers have a nasty tendency to screw their policyholders- so a nice clear contract with uniform standards/swift avenue of appeal is a must. A better idea of course would be everyone in Medicare and you get treatment if you are a citizen (like all of those other socialist hell holes do for their citizens). Sure as hell wouldn't have to worry about working for a large employer with a 'good' group plan/coverage lapses/coverage exclusions,restrictions, recissions, losing coverage BECAUSE of being sick/starting a business/retiring/etc. etc. etc. One giant nationwide headache goes away. What a nice idea.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 15, 2011 20:06:03 GMT -5
The main benefits are an end to the worst practices of insurance companies and creation of a marketplace for policies that meet minimum quality standards for people who are otherwise screwed. I don't know about the rest of you but at a minimum I want my insurance policy to COVER medical problems that may happen to me (or my family) without bankrupting me in the process. It should be 100% portable, or if I so choose I should be able to buy into another policy without restrictions, 2 simple ideas that some states already require (community rating/guarantee issue). Insurers have a nasty tendency to screw their policyholders- so a nice clear contract with uniform standards/swift avenue of appeal is a must. A better idea of course would be everyone in Medicare and you get treatment if you are a citizen (like all of those other socialist hell holes do for their citizens). Sure as hell wouldn't have to worry about working for a large employer with a 'good' group plan/coverage lapses/coverage exclusions,restrictions, recissions, losing coverage BECAUSE of being sick/starting a business/retiring/etc. etc. etc. One giant nationwide headache goes away. What a nice idea. My read on the Obama care - seemed like we would be going back to the HMO days - and I really hated that system - it was not patient friendly.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 15, 2011 20:08:27 GMT -5
Pat
I said I think you are a saint because you actually stepped up to the plate and took care of your loved ones
Your daughter is blessed because you are there for her - with out you, her life would be a lot rougher.
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