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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 21:30:18 GMT -5
One really long one about if he didn't do those things to save our marriage, then why would he do them now. Yep. There's a pretty good chance he won't. That was nice of him to remind you.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 5, 2015 7:13:39 GMT -5
It's obvious to me that your kids are your priority. It's obvious to me that you a good mom. If you weren't, you wouldn't even be worrying about this stuff. Most of us have had one or two of those "oh f*ck" moments. You learn and you go on. Because you don't do exactly what another person thinks you should do does not mean your kids aren't your priority. That would be a ignorant thing for someone to say who hasn't walked in your shoes. You made a mistake. Learn from it, don't do it again and go on. You seem like a good, kind person. Sometimes, good and kind people make the wrong decisions for what seems to be the right reasons. And the fantasy of "perfect family and married forever" can be hard to shake, like Nancy said.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 5, 2015 7:17:37 GMT -5
Some can and some can't. Maybe some crib toys? Anyway, he is old enough to not come out of his room and bother your sleep. We are working on it. Unfortunately it has become a battle of wills each night. I think I carried him back to his bed over a dozen times last night. Eventually he was exhausted and fell asleep on the floor. Eta - unfortunately it is my fault. When he is sick I feel horrible for him and let him lay with me. And he has been sick A LOT. So he doesn't see consistency because then other nights I say he can't lay with me. Now he should be healthy for a while *fingers crossed* so we are really going to work on this consistently. I've been there. Angel, do your best to make sure you get some sleep. When I was in the midst of what I call 'the zombie stage', I need 4 hours of solid sleep. As I crawled out of the sleep deprivation pit, that changed. I wish you weren't a thousand miles away Angel - I'd help with the kids.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 5, 2015 7:21:18 GMT -5
ha, if we were all closer to you, we'd have your kids covered for an entire weekend, for several weeks. I hadn't read that far.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Oct 5, 2015 8:39:47 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the kind words! I know it will all get easier. We should be dealing with a lot less illnesses soon and DS2 will get easier to deal with. Right now he is at that age where he can do so much but still doesn't know all the rules so is constantly getting in trouble. 20 minutes into bedtime and I have carried him back to bed 6 times and scared him back into his room with the evil eye twice. We may be about done because he has climbed out of the crib and is laying on the ground. An improvement over the last few nights if he is done fighting. And only 2 emails from ex since last update. Both fairly civil and trying different tactics. One really long one about if he didn't do those things to save our marriage, then why would he do them now. And how I'm hurting the kids and him, so just stop, blah, blah, blah. Second one said ok, I'll do all those things, but just let me see the kids one more time first. Ah, the one more time tactic...just one more beer, then I'll quit, that was the last time I use drugs, I promise. I've heard one more time a lot. I use to actually believe one more time, not anymore. Not responding at all, just ignoring.And had to evil eye DS2 two more times while writing this. Like I said, the man has a Master's degree in manipulation. They will try any tactic, say anything, in any new way possible, to get your attention. Just hit your own mental IGNORE button and keep hitting hit. He will not change. He will "one more time" you and everyone around him into infinity. He is clearly showing you how not ready he is to change by blaming you and not taking responsibility for changing now. What a double-dipping douchecanoe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 8:51:22 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the kind words! I know it will all get easier. We should be dealing with a lot less illnesses soon and DS2 will get easier to deal with. Right now he is at that age where he can do so much but still doesn't know all the rules so is constantly getting in trouble. 20 minutes into bedtime and I have carried him back to bed 6 times and scared him back into his room with the evil eye twice. We may be about done because he has climbed out of the crib and is laying on the ground. An improvement over the last few nights if he is done fighting. And only 2 emails from ex since last update. Both fairly civil and trying different tactics. One really long one about if he didn't do those things to save our marriage, then why would he do them now. And how I'm hurting the kids and him, so just stop, blah, blah, blah. Second one said ok, I'll do all those things, but just let me see the kids one more time first. Ah, the one more time tactic...just one more beer, then I'll quit, that was the last time I use drugs, I promise. I've heard one more time a lot. I use to actually believe one more time, not anymore. Not responding at all, just ignoring.And had to evil eye DS2 two more times while writing this. Like I said, the man has a Master's degree in manipulation. They will try any tactic, say anything, in any new way possible, to get your attention. Just hit your own mental IGNORE button and keep hitting hit. He will not change. He will "one more time" you and everyone around him into infinity. He is clearly showing you how not ready he is to change by blaming you and not taking responsibility for changing now. What a double-dipping douchecanoe. Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 8:58:56 GMT -5
Like I said, the man has a Master's degree in manipulation. They will try any tactic, say anything, in any new way possible, to get your attention. Just hit your own mental IGNORE button and keep hitting hit. He will not change. He will "one more time" you and everyone around him into infinity. He is clearly showing you how not ready he is to change by blaming you and not taking responsibility for changing now. What a double-dipping douchecanoe. Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel? I know him really well. I think I was married to the same guy!
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Oct 5, 2015 9:44:21 GMT -5
Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel? I know him really well. I think I was married to the same guy! Ouch. Sorry to hear he had a twin, MPL. And yes, I am referring to Agel's ex. But many long-term drug and alcohol abusers have similar characteristics. I recognize his personality as being very much like the personalities of those people I came across while working in the courts and in prison. Self-centered, selfish, fixated on the next high or score, manipulative, able to disappear and reappear without warning and often quite charming in their promised and vows to reform. However, they often don't expect to have to do any real long-term work to fix themselves. And they tend to get very angry when they get called out on their behavior, preferring to blame others ("if you would just treat me better, this would not have happened" or "it's all your fault; YOU'RE the one who is hurting me and the kids by not being nice and giving me another chance and taking me back!"). The first step in any recovery is accepting responsibility, not placing blame. Angel's ex is not in that place.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 5, 2015 9:59:20 GMT -5
Like I said, the man has a Master's degree in manipulation. They will try any tactic, say anything, in any new way possible, to get your attention. Just hit your own mental IGNORE button and keep hitting hit. He will not change. He will "one more time" you and everyone around him into infinity. He is clearly showing you how not ready he is to change by blaming you and not taking responsibility for changing now. What a double-dipping douchecanoe. Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2015 11:36:12 GMT -5
Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel? I know him really well. I think I was married to the same guy! You are cracking me up today!
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Oct 5, 2015 11:44:11 GMT -5
Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel? I you so much sometimes!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2015 11:48:45 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the kind words! I know it will all get easier. We should be dealing with a lot less illnesses soon and DS2 will get easier to deal with. Right now he is at that age where he can do so much but still doesn't know all the rules so is constantly getting in trouble. 20 minutes into bedtime and I have carried him back to bed 6 times and scared him back into his room with the evil eye twice. We may be about done because he has climbed out of the crib and is laying on the ground. An improvement over the last few nights if he is done fighting. And only 2 emails from ex since last update. Both fairly civil and trying different tactics. One really long one about if he didn't do those things to save our marriage, then why would he do them now. And how I'm hurting the kids and him, so just stop, blah, blah, blah. Second one said ok, I'll do all those things, but just let me see the kids one more time first. Ah, the one more time tactic...just one more beer, then I'll quit, that was the last time I use drugs, I promise. I've heard one more time a lot. I use to actually believe one more time, not anymore. Not responding at all, just ignoring. And had to evil eye DS2 two more times while writing this. You're doing the right thing by not responding to him. Sometimes, that's hard. I'd so want to tell him you're not the one who needs to prove herself because of despicable behavior. That would be him. Still, it's best to just let him whine into the wind.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2015 11:52:51 GMT -5
I know him really well. I think I was married to the same guy! Ouch. Sorry to hear he had a twin, MPL. And yes, I am referring to Agel's ex. But many long-term drug and alcohol abusers have similar characteristics. I recognize his personality as being very much like the personalities of those people I came across while working in the courts and in prison. Self-centered, selfish, fixated on the next high or score, manipulative, able to disappear and reappear without warning and often quite charming in their promised and vows to reform. However, they often don't expect to have to do any real long-term work to fix themselves. And they tend to get very angry when they get called out on their behavior, preferring to blame others ("if you would just treat me better, this would not have happened" or "it's all your fault; YOU'RE the one who is hurting me and the kids by not being nice and giving me another chance and taking me back!"). The first step in any recovery is accepting responsibility, not placing blame. Angel's ex is not in that place. It is actually amazing how they are all so similar. We aren't all special snowflakes as we would like to believe. We all fall into patterns of behavior based on circumstances & priorities. When your priority is drugs/alcohol over anything else due to addiction, that makes you start to behave a certain way. It includes lying & manipulation because for a long time those work. When you are married to an addict & desperately trying to save your marriage, then you fall into another pattern of behavior that is very common. You become codependent, you try to rescue that person from their consequences, you live in denial and think if you just do enough on your end, then eventually they will get better.
So when Nancy says she knows him, I 100% believe her. Same with MPL. As different as the situations may be, the patterns of behavior are surprisingly the same. I read a book called "Wives of Alcoholics" & it was eye-opening. Almost every one of the stories could have been about me in some way. How I felt, how I was coping, & how I was acting, it was the same as all the women in those stories.
An old friend (who hasn't been all that supportive of me the last few years) was telling me the other day about her friend who is coping with an alcoholic husband. How he really is a great guy & really wants to change, but is having a hard time. So the wife is trying to keep him under watch 24 hours/day & is dragging him to AA because if she can do all that, then he will get better. It made me sad because I know this women thinks if she puts it all on herself, then she truly can fix him. I know because that was me ~5 years ago & it took me years to realize it wasn't going to work. I also found it weird because my friend was totally supportive of her actions, when I would have thought watching me go through that would have taught her it doesn't work, but whatever. I just wished them the best of luck & told her the wife may want to read Codependent No More & get herself some help.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 12:30:34 GMT -5
It is actually amazing how they are all so similar. We aren't all special snowflakes as we would like to believe. I was completely taken aback when I read Codependent No More. I couldn't believe how all the stories were basically mine in one form or another. I was killing myself trying to fix things and getting nowhere. The real kicker is after having him removed from the house and washing my hands of his issues he is doing better than ever. Who would have thought the drunk and high homeless/jobless guy living in the woods would pull himself together? He now has a great job that he's held for over a year and yesterday completed his first marathon! I hope he keeps it up, but I'm still wary. He has a two year cycle history, so this could all go to hell at any time. Whenever he brings up getting back together I say "Why? We're both doing so much better without each other!"
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 5, 2015 12:36:07 GMT -5
Angel! Does your city have any organizations that provide respite care for parents in "crisis?" We have a non-profit in town, that will watch kids for a set amount of time, while you go do whatever, including seeing counselors on staff. The non-profit's child care center is licensed and is open 24/7. They do have a slide scale for services, but won't turn anyone away if they have no money.... I'm also wondering if you've poked around community centers, to see if any might offer child care while you talk to someone on staff there...Our community center offers child care while parents do a whole bunch of different things (English classes, food prep classes, computer classes, how to find a job classes, etc.) I would totally ask if they would extend it to counseling services.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2015 14:06:52 GMT -5
Angel! Does your city have any organizations that provide respite care for parents in "crisis?" We have a non-profit in town, that will watch kids for a set amount of time, while you go do whatever, including seeing counselors on staff. The non-profit's child care center is licensed and is open 24/7. They do have a slide scale for services, but won't turn anyone away if they have no money.... I'm also wondering if you've poked around community centers, to see if any might offer child care while you talk to someone on staff there...Our community center offers child care while parents do a whole bunch of different things (English classes, food prep classes, computer classes, how to find a job classes, etc.) I would totally ask if they would extend it to counseling services. I can't find any community centers with counseling services, maybe I don't know what to look for. I had never heard of respite care before, but I did find quite a few of those. All except one seems to be for kids with disabilities. The one other only takes kids up to age 6 . DS1 just turned 7. I did write down their number though because it looks like they will take kids 24 hours/day in case of emergency. Although there are quite a few I could call in an emergency & would be more than willing to help. I just don't want to call them to see if they will take the kids just so I can take a nap.
It is nice a place like that exists, I had no idea.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 5, 2015 14:09:30 GMT -5
It's not a nap Angel - it's relieving acute sleep deprivation.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2015 14:22:33 GMT -5
The lawyer called. He said parenting time generally means physical time together & doesn't extend to other communication. He seemed surprised there was no sort of modifiers with the no parenting time order, such as supervised visits monthly or something. His surprise makes me think if I ever do have to go back to court, then supervised visits would be ordered. Like I said, I really think the only reason I have the order I do is because ex didn't fight for anything. I'm guessing it takes a heck of a lot more for the courts to order no parenting time if the father is fighting for visitation.
The lawyer said unless there is literally a no contact order (there is not), then I can't refuse to let him communicate with the kids. This could include phone calls, facebook, email, etc. He did say that twice/day seems excessive & as long as I am reasonable in allowing phone calls I should be ok.
So it is pretty much like a thought, but at least I have some sort of confirmation. He said unless he saw the true language of the order he couldn't say 100%. I declined to set an appointment at this time though. He isn't going to take me to court right now and I don't think he has screwed up nearly enough to fight to revoke his rights. So there really isn't much to be done atm.
My guess is if I don't respond to emails, then he is going to go off the grid again. He hasn't called the kids since Friday morning when I said no more morning phone calls. Only thing I hate is now he is off my radar, but still in town.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2015 14:37:02 GMT -5
Good Luck! Did you mention the warrant at all to the lawyer? wondered if he had any ideas on that. Crap! No, I didn't think of that. Damnit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 14:56:08 GMT -5
I would think you'd still be fine with defining a time frame he can call in the evenings.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2015 15:02:09 GMT -5
I would think you'd still be fine with defining a time frame he can call in the evenings. Yeah, I think your right. If he starts calling at ridiculous times again I will do that. I debated telling him that now & possibly going so far as saying I spoke with a lawyer, but any sort of reaching out on my part right now seems like a bad idea. If he wants to stop calling again because he is mad at me, then let him. Just proves he really hasn't changed at all.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2015 15:23:01 GMT -5
I would think you'd still be fine with defining a time frame he can call in the evenings. Yeah, I think your right. If he starts calling at ridiculous times again I will do that. I debated telling him that now & possibly going so far as saying I spoke with a lawyer, but any sort of reaching out on my part right now seems like a bad idea. If he wants to stop calling again because he is mad at me, then let him. Just proves he really hasn't changed at all. I think you'd also be within your rights to set specific days he can call, in addition to times of day.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 5, 2015 15:49:36 GMT -5
Angel! Does your city have any organizations that provide respite care for parents in "crisis?" We have a non-profit in town, that will watch kids for a set amount of time, while you go do whatever, including seeing counselors on staff. The non-profit's child care center is licensed and is open 24/7. They do have a slide scale for services, but won't turn anyone away if they have no money.... I'm also wondering if you've poked around community centers, to see if any might offer child care while you talk to someone on staff there...Our community center offers child care while parents do a whole bunch of different things (English classes, food prep classes, computer classes, how to find a job classes, etc.) I would totally ask if they would extend it to counseling services. I can't find any community centers with counseling services, maybe I don't know what to look for. I had never heard of respite care before, but I did find quite a few of those. All except one seems to be for kids with disabilities. The one other only takes kids up to age 6 . DS1 just turned 7. I did write down their number though because it looks like they will take kids 24 hours/day in case of emergency. Although there are quite a few I could call in an emergency & would be more than willing to help. I just don't want to call them to see if they will take the kids just so I can take a nap.
It is nice a place like that exists, I had no idea.
Another idea: get on the horn and start calling around places of worship to see if you can get on their "I need a volunteer" list. I'm Catholic, and there's a strong push to volunteer. In fact, my kids have to as part of their grade (actually, the public high schools are now making volunteering mandatory as well) ..Much of it is directed at going to elderly homes to rake leaves and what not, but I can totally see some girls preferring to be a mother's helper over raking leaves. The net result would be free help for you.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Oct 5, 2015 16:04:18 GMT -5
Like I said, the man has a Master's degree in manipulation. They will try any tactic, say anything, in any new way possible, to get your attention. Just hit your own mental IGNORE button and keep hitting hit. He will not change. He will "one more time" you and everyone around him into infinity. He is clearly showing you how not ready he is to change by blaming you and not taking responsibility for changing now. What a double-dipping douchecanoe. Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel? Sometimes unexpressed thoughts are the very best thoughts.
I'm having several right now.
I'm not expressing them because I know you're a wounded soul.
Something to think about.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2015 18:12:27 GMT -5
It is actually amazing how they are all so similar. We aren't all special snowflakes as we would like to believe. I was completely taken aback when I read Codependent No More. I couldn't believe how all the stories were basically mine in one form or another. I was killing myself trying to fix things and getting nowhere. The real kicker is after having him removed from the house and washing my hands of his issues he is doing better than ever. Who would have thought the drunk and high homeless/jobless guy living in the woods would pull himself together? He now has a great job that he's held for over a year and yesterday completed his first marathon! I hope he keeps it up, but I'm still wary. He has a two year cycle history, so this could all go to hell at any time. Whenever he brings up getting back together I say "Why? We're both doing so much better without each other!" I started to mentin this earlier in the thread, but when I finally got around to reading Boundaries, one thing that stuck with me is that when you stop fixing and "helping" and let people take responsibility for their own choices and lives, that's what can really be helpful to them. When you keep trying to shield them from the consequences of their choices, they don't really have any reason to do anything other than what they've been doing. It's kind of funny how that works.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 7:26:14 GMT -5
Are you talking about Angel's ex? Do you know anything about him other then through Angel? I am sure this will get deleted like last time I said Angel should be wary of some of the advice here. No one here was married to Angel's ex and those saying they were might be transferring some of the anger they had to Angel's ex. Posts that concentrate on punishing the ex at the expense of Angel or her children are not going to be helpful. There is a crowd here who think more punishment is the answer to all hurt. Sometimes, probably all times, the better answer lies with concentrating on those hurt. Posters have their own history, myself included, that tint some advice and people thinking they know the husband because of their failed marriage might be giving tainted advice. Especially those with an ex they hate and want to think of Angel's ex as the same person. I am not saying all the advice here is bad, just that it should be evaluated by Angel and not taken as inherently good, unbiased advice.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 6, 2015 7:34:32 GMT -5
It's not that posters here want to punish her ex, though there's certainly no love lost from listening to all the truly awful things he's done, but that they have dealt with abusers and manipulators and know the bad side and often the only way to avoid is is to shut them down.
You're well known on the board for siding on the side of........let's say enabling the abusers. Also it tends to be on the codependent side. Neither is good at all, but you are free to choose that in your life.
Angel wants her and her kids free of abuse, and the only way to do that is to cut the non sober abuser out. And it's not just angels word as the court have him no parenting time.
It's not about punishing the ex, it's about keeping the kids free of emotional and maybe physical abuse. He's just collateral damage because he refuses to help himself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 7:37:42 GMT -5
I am sure this will get deleted like last time I said Angel should be wary of some of the advice here. No one here was married to Angel's ex and those saying they were might be transferring some of the anger they had to Angel's ex. Posts that concentrate on punishing the ex at the expense of Angel or her children are not going to be helpful. There is a crowd here who think more punishment is the answer to all hurt. Sometimes, probably all times, the better answer lies with concentrating on those hurt. Posters have their own history, myself included, that tint some advice and people thinking they know the husband because of their failed marriage might be giving tainted advice. Especially those with an ex they hate and want to think of Angel's ex as the same person. I am not saying all the advice here is bad, just that it should be evaluated by Angel and not taken as inherently good, unbiased advice. Who is talking about punishing anyone? I'm pretty sure everyone IS focusing on those hurt. It is not Angel's responsibility to take care of this guy and her kids are not therapy animals for the mentally ill. I don't hate my ex at all. But I know the fear and stress that Angel is experiencing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 7:53:32 GMT -5
It's not that posters here want to punish her ex, though there's certainly no love lost from listening to all the truly awful things he's done, but that they have dealt with abusers and manipulators and know the bad side and often the only way to avoid is is to shut them down. You're well known on the board for siding on the side of........let's say enabling the abusers. Also it tends to be on the codependent side. Neither is good at all, but you are free to choose that in your life. Angel wants her and her kids free of abuse, and the only way to do that is to cut the non sober abuser out. And it's not just angels word as the court have him no parenting time. It's not about punishing the ex, it's about keeping the kids free of emotional and maybe physical abuse. He's just collateral damage because he refuses to help himself. You, or any other here, cannot find one post where I said a person hurting someone else should not be punished, not one. I do not think punishment should be the focus of problems, I think helping the one hurt should take priority. I have dealt with sexual abuse problems and issues my whole life. It has hurt me much much more then anything in my life. Over 40 years after being abused, I still am negatively affected. Saying I want to enable abusers is hurtful to me and wrong. I think it much more important to talk about healing. Those posters who think punishment is the most important part of an abusive situation are misguided in my experience and opinion. The posters here who lie about what I believe are -----. They perpetuate hurt with the lies. My experiences led to my beliefs. I have a right to those beliefs. Those beliefs do not enable any bad behavior. I do not disagree with your advice given in your post, because it speaks of what is best for Angel and her children. I think the advice that centers on the husband and says to push him out or punish him with no mention of Angel or her children are suspect and should be seen as such. You and other posters can say whatever ugly thing you want to say about me, apparently it is allowed, but I have never defended abusers. The closest I came to doing so was speaking of forgiveness of my dad, who abused me. That was more then 40 years after the abuse and ~17 years after his death. It helped me to forgive and it was my right to forgive and people who fault me for that are more then wrong. eta: Posters who push hate towards someone who did wrong at the expense of the person wronged do not have the moral high ground they think they have.
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justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
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Post by justme on Oct 6, 2015 8:03:08 GMT -5
Sorry, my app isn't letting me quote.
I don't mean that you're sitting there telling abusers to go ahead and keep abusing or lining up their next victim for them. But I mean in the subtle sense where most people don't realize that their help really isn't help at all. That's the enabling you focus on, but the truth of the matter us you can't help them and make them better. The codependent no more book that was mentioned several times is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
You can't help abusers get better. You can't help alcoholics dry up. You can't make mentally ill people sane again. Yea you may get a bandaid to stick for a little while, but you just end up hurting both of you in the long run. There's nothing Angel can do to help her ex. All she can do is protect her kids from him.
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