"If you're saving in your 20s, you're doing something wrong"

[midjd]

So the answer is to eliminate free birth control -- and the organization that provides contraceptives and abortion services to primarily low-income women? Because removing these resources will reduce the number of unwed mothers? 

Sure, makes total sense... 

[gs11rmb]

Sept 21, 2015 15:25:16 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well, it can be as wide ranging and complicated a discussion as anyone here has patience for- but the bottom line is that the best financial decision a woman (in particular, because women still end up with the kids) can make is to graduate high school, and wait until marriage to have children.  There's no room for nuance in the data, either.  For example, having kids with the shack up guy and then getting married later has fairly similar results to single motherhood financially speaking (and a much higher rate of divorce than those that wait).  Like a lot of things in life fun now doesn't equate to long term happiness later.  Yes, we've lowered the costs of single motherhood on paper with welfare programs-- but again, the data tend to show that welfare perpetuates rather than alleviates poverty.  Again, I could get way deep into it-- but THE number one, self-perpetuating cause of poverty is single motherhood.  There are other factors, but none as preventable.

As it happens, I don't disagree with you and the data appear to support the argument that single motherhood can be a fast-track to poverty.  I think the most effective way to achieve the outcome you seek would be to ensure all women are able to control their fertility.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 21, 2015 16:23:49 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Sept 21, 2015 15:25:16 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well, it can be as wide ranging and complicated a discussion as anyone here has patience for- but the bottom line is that the best financial decision a woman (in particular, because women still end up with the kids) can make is to graduate high school, and wait until marriage to have children.  There's no room for nuance in the data, either.  For example, having kids with the shack up guy and then getting married later has fairly similar results to single motherhood financially speaking (and a much higher rate of divorce than those that wait).  Like a lot of things in life fun now doesn't equate to long term happiness later.  Yes, we've lowered the costs of single motherhood on paper with welfare programs-- but again, the data tend to show that welfare perpetuates rather than alleviates poverty.  Again, I could get way deep into it-- but THE number one, self-perpetuating cause of poverty is single motherhood.  There are other factors, but none as preventable.

As it happens, I don't disagree with you and the data appear to support the argument that single motherhood can be a fast-track to poverty.  I think the most effective way to achieve the outcome you seek would be to ensure all women are able to control their fertility.

Every woman is at all times in complete control of her fertility pretty much no matter what.

[swamp]

Sept 21, 2015 17:50:14 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 21, 2015 16:23:49 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

As it happens, I don't disagree with you and the data appear to support the argument that single motherhood can be a fast-track to poverty.  I think the most effective way to achieve the outcome you seek would be to ensure all women are able to control their fertility.

Every woman is at all times in complete control of her fertility pretty much no matter what.

So are men. Eve more so since they generally don't get forced into sex. No body seems to want to lecture then about single parenthood. Maybe they should start getting regar lectured about manning up to their responsibilities including their kids.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 23, 2015 13:10:10 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 21, 2015 17:50:14 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Every woman is at all times in complete control of her fertility pretty much no matter what.

So are men. Eve more so since they generally don't get forced into sex. No body seems to want to lecture then about single parenthood. Maybe they should start getting regar lectured about manning up to their responsibilities including their kids.

Oh, please.

1. We're not talking about sexual assault.  How many out of wedlock pregnancies does that result in?

2. There's no shortage of lecturing men about being "deadbeat dads" while

3. Single mom is practically a status symbol, and a heroic endeavor in which pure as the wind driven snow women do with gladness of heart while avoiding rape and struggling financially due to deadbeat dads.  


Again, I'm not big on the F word. I don't look at things through the lens of "fair" or "unfair".  I look at reality.  Women are the ones who have the potential to get pregnant, and while it might not be fair, it is 100% their responsibility not to get pregnant unless they intend to (rape notwithstanding- unbelievable that I actually have to add this qualifier).

[The Captain]

Must be nice to have a worldview where you can deny responsibility for your actions because the long term effects don't physically impact you.

[quince]

Psst....you know that not all single mothers had children outside of wedlock, right? A generous proportion of them are divorced.


I personally am a big fan of divorce. I applaud that people are not forced to stay in physically, verbally, or financially abusive situations. Yay divorce! I'm glad it is available if I ever need it.

I DO applaud all people who take good care of their kids, and have great admiration for those who do it in more difficult circumstances.

You can be a single parent, and coparent with the other parent, and everything can be smooth.

Or you can be a single parent, and a widow/widower, or a single parent with the other parent being a deadbeat, and I have great admiration to those who can take a deep breath and handle something exceedingly difficult with minimal support.

The responsibility for children is equally upon both parents. If only one parent chooses to live up to their responsibilities, well done that parent.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 23, 2015 13:57:26 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Must be nice to have a worldview where you can deny responsibility for your actions because the long term effects don't physically impact you.

That is not my worldview, which is why I chose to wait until I got married to have children.

It is interesting that this information- that there are men who will deny responsibility for their actions because the long term effects don't physically impact them- seems to be widely available. Again, I am not saying it is fair. I am saying it is, and women should conduct themselves accordingly.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 23, 2015 14:14:56 GMT -5 quince said:

Psst....you know that not all single mothers had children outside of wedlock, right? A generous proportion of them are divorced.


I personally am a big fan of divorce. I applaud that people are not forced to stay in physically, verbally, or financially abusive situations. Yay divorce! I'm glad it is available if I ever need it.

I DO applaud all people who take good care of their kids, and have great admiration for those who do it in more difficult circumstances.

You can be a single parent, and coparent with the other parent, and everything can be smooth.

Or you can be a single parent, and a widow/widower, or a single parent with the other parent being a deadbeat, and I have great admiration to those who can take a deep breath and handle something exceedingly difficult with minimal support.

The responsibility for children is equally upon both parents. If only one parent chooses to live up to their responsibilities, well done that parent.

That is not my comment.  My observation is that in general single motherhood, however one ended up in that situation, the title "Single Mom" is a saintly one.  Suffice it to say the pendulum has swung too far the other way...

[The Captain]

Sept 23, 2015 15:08:04 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 23, 2015 13:57:26 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Must be nice to have a worldview where you can deny responsibility for your actions because the long term effects don't physically impact you.

That is not my worldview, which is why I chose to wait until I got married to have children.

It is interesting that this information- that there are men who will deny responsibility for their actions because the long term effects don't physically impact them- seems to be widely available. Again, I am not saying it is fair. I am saying it is, and women should conduct themselves accordingly.

and I quote:

Women are the ones who have the potential to get pregnant, and while it might not be fair, it is 100% their responsibility not to get pregnant unless they intend to

you only assigned the responsibility to one gender, Paul. I would counter and state it's 100% the responsibility of each partner to use birth control if they don't want children.

Men are should be just as responsible as women when it comes to family planning. By your own admission, they're not - but that doesn't mean we as a society should then place all the responsibility on the women because the men can't be bothered.

That's like saying women shouldn't dress in a way that would attract men because the stupid beasts can't control themselves (and yes I'm trying to make a point here folks please note I'm stating obvious irony here).  You and I both know men are capable of more than that and we as a society should stop giving them a buy.

Yes, I tell my daughter repeatedly that most boys don't know which head to think with, so she damn well better know how to use hers.  If I had a son I'd tell him he better damn well know which one should be driving his actions.  He wouldn't get a buy because "boys will be...".

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 23, 2015 15:25:51 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sept 23, 2015 15:08:04 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

That is not my worldview, which is why I chose to wait until I got married to have children.

It is interesting that this information- that there are men who will deny responsibility for their actions because the long term effects don't physically impact them- seems to be widely available. Again, I am not saying it is fair. I am saying it is, and women should conduct themselves accordingly.

and I quote:

Women are the ones who have the potential to get pregnant, and while it might not be fair, it is 100% their responsibility not to get pregnant unless they intend to

you only assigned the responsibility to one gender, Paul. I would counter and state it's 100% the responsibility of each partner to use birth control if they don't want children.

Men are should be just as responsible as women when it comes to family planning. By your own admission, they're not - but that doesn't mean we as a society should then place all the responsibility on the women because the men can't be bothered.

That's like saying women shouldn't dress in a way that would attract men because the stupid beasts can't control themselves (and yes I'm trying to make a point here folks please note I'm stating obvious irony here).  You and I both know men are capable of more than that and we as a society should stop giving them a buy.

Yes, I tell my daughter repeatedly that most boys don't know which head to think with, so she damn well better know how to use hers.  If I had a son I'd tell him he better damn well know which one should be driving his actions.  He wouldn't get a buy because "boys will be...".

Well, sure.  It might not perhaps be 100% their moral and financial responsibility. However, a woman is 100% in charge of her own body, and is therefore the only guarantee that she will not get pregnant.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Look, you can make all manner of philosophical argument about responsibility for pregnancy.  And many, if not most, are valid.  

However, there's only going to be one person pregnant if two people agree to engage in sexual intercourse which leads to pregnancy, and that's the woman.

So, the physical reality of the situation is that it's going to end up on her shoulders.  We can all wish and hope her male counterpart does the right thing, but you know what grandpappy said about wishing in one hand and shitting in the other...

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2015 13:44:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Single mom is practically a status symbol, and a heroic endeavor in which pure as the wind driven snow women do with gladness of heart while avoiding rape and struggling financially due to deadbeat dads.

Yeah, I hate it when the newspapers show some poor, noble single mom without naming and shaming the Baby Daddies. Why do they get off scot-free?

OTOH- a few months ago there was a story that was supposed to be heartwarming about a cop called to the local Wal-Mart to arrest a woman for shoplifting. Her daughters were barefoot and she was stealing shoes for them. The picture showed her with 3 photogenic little girls. She was a widow. Except:

1. She actually had 6 kids, all daughters.
2. Her husband died in an accident 4 years ago and her twins were 2 years old.
3. She was later arrested on charges of possession of methamphetamines.

I'm assuming her late husband did not leave her in good financial straits and then she manages to pop out a pair of twins. WTF was she thinking?   And who and where is THEIR Daddy?

[NastyWoman]

Sept 23, 2015 15:08:04 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 23, 2015 13:57:26 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Must be nice to have a worldview where you can deny responsibility for your actions because the long term effects don't physically impact you.

That is not my worldview, which is why I chose to wait until I got married to have children.

It is interesting that this information- that there are men who will deny responsibility for their actions because the long term effects don't physically impact them- seems to be widely available. Again, I am not saying it is fair. I am saying it is, and women should conduct themselves accordingly.

The Lorena Bobbit method anyone?   You make baby, you don't care/support/pay for, you get Bobbited?  Would solve the problem quite fast, since that "no fun" condom would suddenly become very attractive to a lot of men 

[gs11rmb]

I'm in the very strange position where I sort of agree with Paul ...

It's entirely unfair that so often the burden of unplanned parenthood falls on women and is not evenly split between both parties.  That is, however, the reality of our society.  I hope it changes but in the meantime, once my daughters are old enough to start thinking about sex, I will be very vocal that an unplanned pregnancy will be life changing and not for the better.

I was listening to the radio driving to work this morning and there were two parents calling in because the mother wants to put the 15 year old daughter on birth control and the father says she is too young.  The only thing I would want less than my 15 year old girl having sex would be for my 15 year old to get pregnant. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 23, 2015 20:09:33 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Sept 23, 2015 15:08:04 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

That is not my worldview, which is why I chose to wait until I got married to have children.

It is interesting that this information- that there are men who will deny responsibility for their actions because the long term effects don't physically impact them- seems to be widely available. Again, I am not saying it is fair. I am saying it is, and women should conduct themselves accordingly.

The Lorena Bobbit method anyone?   You make baby, you don't care/support/pay for, you get Bobbited?  Would solve the problem quite fast, since that "no fun" condom would suddenly become very attractive to a lot of men 

As long as we have a welfare state, I'm in favor of sterilization of BOTH "parents" as a prerequisite for benefits.  I don't know about "Bobbited" but a nice vasectomy would certainly be in order.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 24, 2015 8:32:26 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

I'm in the very strange position where I sort of agree with Paul ...

It's entirely unfair that so often the burden of unplanned parenthood falls on women and is not evenly split between both parties.  That is, however, the reality of our society.  I hope it changes but in the meantime, once my daughters are old enough to start thinking about sex, I will be very vocal that an unplanned pregnancy will be life changing and not for the better.

I was listening to the radio driving to work this morning and there were two parents calling in because the mother wants to put the 15 year old daughter on birth control and the father says she is too young.  The only thing I would want less than my 15 year old girl having sex would be for my 15 year old to get pregnant. 

The only thing I'd want less than my 15 year old girl getting pregnant would be my 15 year old girl getting HIV or herpes because birth control pills provided her with the illusion that she had nothing to worry about. 

My mom's a registered nurse, and she was a regular hoot during "the talk".  We didn't have the Google growing up, so she had a binder full of full-color, page-protected pages with pictures and descriptions of all the various STD's available, and the data on the odds of someone getting them.  The odds haven't gotten better, by the way-- and there're some new ones. Not only that, but we now know the links between various kinds of sexual activity even WITHOUT an STD and long term harm including sterility and cancers.  

The sex education I got left me fully informed, and eyes wide open.  

In my opinion sex ed does nothing but excite and stimulate kids who are too immature to formulate the information into anything useful, and it leaves off a lot of the downside.

Yes, I am a buzz kill. I know.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 23, 2015 17:24:09 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Sept 23, 2015 13:44:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Single mom is practically a status symbol, and a heroic endeavor in which pure as the wind driven snow women do with gladness of heart while avoiding rape and struggling financially due to deadbeat dads.

Yeah, I hate it when the newspapers show some poor, noble single mom without naming and shaming the Baby Daddies. Why do they get off scot-free?

OTOH- a few months ago there was a story that was supposed to be heartwarming about a cop called to the local Wal-Mart to arrest a woman for shoplifting. Her daughters were barefoot and she was stealing shoes for them. The picture showed her with 3 photogenic little girls. She was a widow. Except:

1. She actually had 6 kids, all daughters.
2. Her husband died in an accident 4 years ago and her twins were 2 years old.
3. She was later arrested on charges of possession of methamphetamines.

I'm assuming her late husband did not leave her in good financial straits and then she manages to pop out a pair of twins. WTF was she thinking?   And who and where is THEIR Daddy?

Let us say that they did name and shame "Baby Daddies".  What practical difference does it make?  Since we're talking about money here, and the object is to have the best financial life possible, women need to know that complaining about the injustice of being left to raise kids on their own without their deadbeat dad AFTER THE FACT will not change their financial situation.  We cannot legislate people into financial responsibility.  We can punish them in hopes of providing a deterrent, but throwing immature men into a modern debtor's prison again- AFTER THE FACT- doesn't actually help the kids.  I'm sympathetic to single mom's- my sister was one.  Two kids with the same drug dealing jerk.  However, she will be the first to tell you that once you're in that situation, you're screwed, and it's better if you're just not stupid in the first place.

[Deleted]

I won't be giving my son an out. An unplanned pregnancy WOULD change his life as well...

[quince]

I think Vasalgel will be FDA approved by the time my son is old enough to care about sex. Woo hoo!  That plus condoms should keep him "covered", plus he could end up like his father and not put effort into the opposite sex until he's done with college, because it's too distracting.

[NastyWoman]

Sept 24, 2015 13:24:07 GMT -5 quince said:

I think Vasalgel will be FDA approved by the time my son is old enough to care about sex. Woo hoo!  That plus condoms should keep him "covered", plus he could end up like his father and not put effort into the opposite sex until he's done with college, because it's too distracting.

Just curious quince, how old is your son? 

[movingforward]

sorry, wrong thread.  Deleted post

[quince]

Sept 24, 2015 14:04:38 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Sept 24, 2015 13:24:07 GMT -5 quince said:

I think Vasalgel will be FDA approved by the time my son is old enough to care about sex. Woo hoo!  That plus condoms should keep him "covered", plus he could end up like his father and not put effort into the opposite sex until he's done with college, because it's too distracting.

Just curious quince, how old is your son? 

Only two. Despite all the delays, in a decade and a half the stupid thing should be easily available and with some years of use behind it.

Actually hoping for it to be available soon enough we won't have to use surgical methods for our long-term contraception.