zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 14, 2015 11:34:32 GMT -5
I can get upset at the local businesses that pay minimum wage. Why do they pay it? Because they can. Can't get help to work for minimum wage? You'll have to pay more. Besides just bcuz you only see their okay house does not mean they don't live the high life elsewhere. Our town mortician lives almost lower middle class. Why? Bcuz he doesn't want people thinking he's getting rich off their grief. But he is. Owns a fancy and very expensive condo on Sand Key. Owns a huge yacht as well as an up north chalet on a lake. Just doesn't flaunt it. He does absolutely nothing charitable and his kids are/will be recipients of huge trust funds.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Sept 14, 2015 12:05:23 GMT -5
If you go to the original article from the Street it does link to the article you found. When you actually read the CBO report it kind of makes this article look like a joke. According to the report spending will be up, wages will be up, unemployment will be down, debt as a percent of GDP is lower than last year, the deficit is 60 billion lower than projected for this year, US interest payments are expected to drop 5%, the GDP is expected to continue growing. Overall the news seems very positive considering we just dug out of a massive recession. But I guess some just really, really want to believe the country is going down the crapper and will twist even positive news to their liking. Some of that is smoke in mirrors, like having a lowest amount of bonds due within the next year being the lowest since the 1950s and there has also been the benefit for longer term bonds to spread out what we owe; but those will mature and have to be paid at some point in the future. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just like refinancing on a home and spreading out the payments over 30 years; but if our overspending habits don't change, it doesn't address the underlying issues that caused the need for those loans. As for wages and spending being up...the two usually go hand in hand, along with prices if the amount of money in the economy increases. Inflation is pretty natural for the most part. I'm not opposed to social safety net programs, but I would like to see more of an emphasis on helping address the reason people are in the situation. Sometimes life just happens and people with skills and education end up in need of those programs, other times it has to do with individuals not have either one and are living just above the threshold to qualify for the programs on a good day. I do think education and job training are worth the government investing in because in the long run I think it will cost less and bring in more revenue. Of course the other side of the argument is that when the government gets involved in helping cover educational cost and job training, there is a higher demand for it; that leads to higher prices. Unfortunately I think the alternative leads to having more people will less education and job skills, that will lead to more people needing to utilize the social safety nets. So it causes the cost to consumers to increase, but may be a wash from the government spending side of things....so if the government is probably going to spend it one way or another, it may depend on where you think it will be most beneficial.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Sept 14, 2015 12:14:20 GMT -5
You don't like working for Walmart? Get an education, stop committing crimes, and don't have babies you can't afford to feed. Just like not giving handouts and jobs to illegals will make them self deport, there are answers. Is that your take on Walmart employees? That they are uneducated criminals with too many babies? Walmart is in the clear though for paying so low the only way they can get those cheap employees is because of welfare? Who is really getting the larger government handout? I'm not sure about this argument because if there were no welfare (and I'm not arguing that should be the case), companies would probably be able to pay less because when you are hungry and have no options, you are willing to do a lot of things that you might not be willing to do otherwise....like work excessive hours or multiple jobs to feed your family or yourself. So all people who think certain jobs "don't pay enough" may start to think "at least I'm making something." Again, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have social safety net programs, but just not sure about the argument when people say companies can only pay so little because of them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 14, 2015 14:06:31 GMT -5
Question: Have we developed, as a nation, an unsustainable minimum level of acceptable material existence for 100% of our population?
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Sept 14, 2015 21:11:39 GMT -5
Be a Petsmart animal groomer. How much training can that be? I just tipped $10. Worth every penny on a $51 cat bath and furminating. Does Petsmart hire criminals with too many mouths too feed as well? Forget that though- I just want to know what a 'furminating' is- have had a lot of cats and have no idea what that is.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 14, 2015 21:19:06 GMT -5
Question: Have we developed, as a nation, an unsustainable minimum level of acceptable material existence for 100% of our population? I often wonder about that. It's no longer good enough to have a stove to cook our abundance of food on. It has to be stainless steel, so toss the white ones.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 14, 2015 21:26:01 GMT -5
I think CNA is a young person's job and not that well paid. Its $1K or more for training and many start at $10/hr. or lower in CNJ. Not sure about the other, but neither appeal to me. (After quite a few years of experience, a CNA can work privately for $16 to $18/hr., however, in CNJ that qualifies them for mid-level affordable housing.) Well, in the Democrat's future America they will not have to bother getting that education. They can work in fastfood industry for $15 an hour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 21:42:08 GMT -5
I think CNA is a young person's job and not that well paid. Its $1K or more for training and many start at $10/hr. or lower in CNJ. Not sure about the other, but neither appeal to me. (After quite a few years of experience, a CNA can work privately for $16 to $18/hr., however, in CNJ that qualifies them for mid-level affordable housing.) Well, in the Democrat's future America they will not have to bother getting that education. They can work in fastfood industry for $15 an hour. Yeah... but will they be able to buy the $12.00 "Happy Meal" or the $19.00 "Quarter Pounder w/ Cheese" meal?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 14, 2015 21:43:00 GMT -5
Is that your take on Walmart employees? That they are uneducated criminals with too many babies? Walmart is in the clear though for paying so low the only way they can get those cheap employees is because of welfare? Who is really getting the larger government handout? Another, my take on Walmart employees is that no minimum wage job, and why we just pick on Walmart when there's plenty of other retailers that pay minimum wage, is that no one is forced to, except by their own poor choices, to work there. employers are also making poor choices to pay that little, imo. i suspect that you will find that reply shocking, but i absolutely have my reasons.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 14, 2015 21:44:29 GMT -5
Well, in the Democrat's future America they will not have to bother getting that education. They can work in fastfood industry for $15 an hour. Yeah... but will they be able to buy the $12.00 "Happy Meal" or the $19.00 "Quarter Pounder w/ Cheese" meal? don't exaggerate. the Heritage Foundation did a study on this, and although i have every reason to suspect their results were skewed to look worse than they actually would be, they predicted an average rise of $1 on a "Happy Meal" (or about 10%) for a DOUBLING of FMW.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 14, 2015 21:45:08 GMT -5
I think CNA is a young person's job and not that well paid. Its $1K or more for training and many start at $10/hr. or lower in CNJ. Not sure about the other, but neither appeal to me. (After quite a few years of experience, a CNA can work privately for $16 to $18/hr., however, in CNJ that qualifies them for mid-level affordable housing.) Well, in the Democrat's future America they will not have to bother getting that education. They can work in fastfood industry for $15 an hour. my education got me $15/hr in 1989. i would expect twice that entering the workforce now.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 14, 2015 21:47:10 GMT -5
Be a Petsmart animal groomer. How much training can that be? I just tipped $10. Worth every penny on a $51 cat bath and furminating. or work at CostCo, where employees average way over any minimum wage proposal i have ever seen.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 14, 2015 21:47:42 GMT -5
Well, in the Democrat's future America they will not have to bother getting that education. They can work in fastfood industry for $15 an hour. my education got me $15/hr in 1989. i would expect twice that entering the workforce now. I agree with you if we are talking higher education. High school education not so much. Those jobs that required that are basically gone.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 14, 2015 21:48:50 GMT -5
my education got me $15/hr in 1989. i would expect twice that entering the workforce now. I agree with you if we are talking higher education. High school education not so much. Those jobs that required that are basically gone. high school education should get you about $15/hr. at that rate of pay, you MIGHT be able to afford a place to live. maybe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 21:54:11 GMT -5
Yeah... but will they be able to buy the $12.00 "Happy Meal" or the $19.00 "Quarter Pounder w/ Cheese" meal? don't exaggerate. the Heritage Foundation did a study on this, and although i have every reason to suspect their results were skewed to look worse than they actually would be, they predicted an average rise of $1 on a "Happy Meal" (or about 10%) for a DOUBLING of FMW. I was just following VB's example of exaggeration.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 15, 2015 6:48:06 GMT -5
Be a Petsmart animal groomer. How much training can that be? I just tipped $10. Worth every penny on a $51 cat bath and furminating. Does Petsmart hire criminals with too many mouths too feed as well? Forget that though- I just want to know what a 'furminating' is- have had a lot of cats and have no idea what that is. If you have a cat or dog that sheds so much that it causes more issues than their hair everywhere and changing food and giving stuff to help it doesn't work, then this furminating gets the under hair, I guess. Anyway first night in weeks I'm not up at 4 am to the sound of cat puke so maybe it's working.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 15, 2015 7:12:44 GMT -5
don't exaggerate. the Heritage Foundation did a study on this, and although i have every reason to suspect their results were skewed to look worse than they actually would be, they predicted an average rise of $1 on a "Happy Meal" (or about 10%) for a DOUBLING of FMW. I was just following VB's example of exaggeration. God, I wish I had exaggerated.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 15, 2015 8:13:36 GMT -5
I was just following VB's example of exaggeration. God, I wish I had exaggerated. about what?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 8:47:20 GMT -5
I was just following VB's example of exaggeration. God, I wish I had exaggerated. Wish granted! (when you posted the exaggeration)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 8:51:18 GMT -5
Question: Have we developed, as a nation, an unsustainable minimum level of acceptable material existence for 100% of our population? The issue is maintaining the gap. The gap between the masses and the elite can't be too large, frankly, or we all know, historically, what happens. If the minimal existence doesn't rise relative to the top, the system becomes unsustainable ...
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Sept 15, 2015 9:07:01 GMT -5
Another, my take on Walmart employees is that no minimum wage job, and why we just pick on Walmart when there's plenty of other retailers that pay minimum wage, is that no one is forced to, except by their own poor choices, to work there. employers are also making poor choices to pay that little, imo. i suspect that you will find that reply shocking, but i absolutely have my reasons. The saying that "you get what you pay for" applies to services as much as goods.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Sept 15, 2015 9:21:28 GMT -5
Question: Have we developed, as a nation, an unsustainable minimum level of acceptable material existence for 100% of our population? The issue is maintaining the gap. The gap between the masses and the elite can't be too large, frankly, or we all know, historically, what happens. If the minimal existence doesn't rise relative to the top, the system becomes unsustainable ... When you are comparing a group that spends everything they make (whether it is because of necessity or choice is irrelevant) vs a group that can save, there is always going to be a growing gap of material existence. It's not really a fair comparison to think that just because one group is doing better, the other group should be doing better by the same percentage (or whatever measurement you want to use to ensure the gap doesn't get bigger). Even using percentage doesn't work because a 1% gain at the top is bigger than a 1% gain at the bottom. I don't really know many people...I know any, other than maybe some teenagers who actually make minimum wage. However, raising it to $15/hour would have some level of increase with prices and LCOL areas would probably see the rise in prices more than HCOL areas because the medium income level would probably increase. I'm also curious about if raising the FMW to $15/hour would lower or increase the standard of living for those who currently make $10-15/hour. If they make above minimum wage now, I'm assuming they can live a little bit better lifestyle than minimum wage workers; but if they are all of sudden making minimum wage (even if it is more money), what affect would that have on their lifestyles in the long run? Basically I wonder if raising the FMW to $15/hour would raise the standard of living for some, while lowering it for other.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 15, 2015 10:32:26 GMT -5
The issue is maintaining the gap. The gap between the masses and the elite can't be too large, frankly, or we all know, historically, what happens. If the minimal existence doesn't rise relative to the top, the system becomes unsustainable ... When you are comparing a group that spends everything they make (whether it is because of necessity or choice is irrelevant) vs a group that can save, there is always going to be a growing gap of material existence. It's not really a fair comparison to think that just because one group is doing better, the other group should be doing better by the same percentage (or whatever measurement you want to use to ensure the gap doesn't get bigger). ... It isn't a question of "fair" or "should". History has shown that when the wealth becomes too concentrated at the top, the system topples.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 10:37:11 GMT -5
Actually 1) only localities are talking 15$ ... Federally it's 10 something. 2) I don't look for that to raise living much at all... Just shift who is paying for it from the government to employers.
I said relative to, not percentage of....
Some people seem under the mistaken conclusion that people in the top 10% are the only people who actually work...
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Sept 15, 2015 10:41:49 GMT -5
When you are comparing a group that spends everything they make (whether it is because of necessity or choice is irrelevant) vs a group that can save, there is always going to be a growing gap of material existence. It's not really a fair comparison to think that just because one group is doing better, the other group should be doing better by the same percentage (or whatever measurement you want to use to ensure the gap doesn't get bigger). ... It isn't a question of "fair" or "should". History has shown that when the wealth becomes too concentrated at the top, the system topples. I would say most of those instances were more caste style systems without the ability to move and down; not necessarily in systems such as what we have now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5
When you are comparing a group that spends everything they make (whether it is because of necessity or choice is irrelevant) vs a group that can save, there is always going to be a growing gap of material existence. It's not really a fair comparison to think that just because one group is doing better, the other group should be doing better by the same percentage (or whatever measurement you want to use to ensure the gap doesn't get bigger). ... It isn't a question of "fair" or "should". History has shown that when the wealth becomes too concentrated at the top, the system topples. Exactly. And it's in our own best interests to sustain the system.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Sept 15, 2015 10:42:41 GMT -5
Actually 1) only localities are talking 15$ ... Federally it's 10 something. 2) I don't look for that to raise living much at all... Just shift who is paying for it from the government to employers. I said relative to, not percentage of.... Some people seem under the mistaken conclusion that people in the top 10% are the only people who actually work... And some people are under the mistaken assumption that those in the top 10% don't deserve what they have or that they didn't earn it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 10:43:44 GMT -5
It isn't a question of "fair" or "should". History has shown that when the wealth becomes too concentrated at the top, the system topples. I would say most of those instances were more caste style systems without the ability to move and down; not necessarily in systems such as what we have now. Actually, studies show we don't do a lot of moving. Not nearly as much as you think. And the only way it IS possible is because of the social supports you dislike. Without them it gets worse fast.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 10:44:58 GMT -5
Actually 1) only localities are talking 15$ ... Federally it's 10 something. 2) I don't look for that to raise living much at all... Just shift who is paying for it from the government to employers. I said relative to, not percentage of.... Some people seem under the mistaken conclusion that people in the top 10% are the only people who actually work... And some people are under the mistaken assumption that those in the top 10% don't deserve what they have or that they didn't earn it. Not at all. They just aren't the only ones who deserve anything. And, if they want to keep it, it's in their best interests to sustain the system.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 15, 2015 11:00:39 GMT -5
I would say most of those instances were more caste style systems without the ability to move and down; not necessarily in systems such as what we have now. Actually, studies show we don't do a lot of moving. Not nearly as much as you think. And the only way it IS possible is because of the social supports you dislike. Without them it gets worse fast. But the studies don't explain why there isn't a lot of moving. When there is a support system that actually encourages people to achieve less than their highest potential, by subsidizing their choices, then the only ones who will move up from lower classes are those that are much more motivated than most. Point is, you can move up in our society, the tools and the freedom are there. It is up to you to go for it.
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