Seeking Conservatorship - *Update* - Mediation

[Michigander]

I am a longtime lurker and first time poster.  I am seeking to be my mother's conservator and want a plan of action before the court date.

My parents had been in declining health for years, but would not make the decision to move downstate for better care.  My brothers, as POAs, would not encourage them to move and refused offers of help from family members.  Over two years ago, my mother then had a massive stoke and suddenly, my parents had to be moved downstate into an assisted living facility (ALF).  This sudden move was very difficult for my dad and I believe was a major factor in his death a year later,

Through the years, my brothers have been very secretive regarding my parents finances and assets.  Even when my parents were moved into the ALF, my brothers would not list me as a point of contact.  They did not want anyone but them to be involved with the ALF.  Through the years, though, as I often visited my parents, the nurses would call me with questions and concerns because i was always willing to help.  My brothers rarely visit and do not answer calls or return messages.

Last month I received a telephone call from the ALF, asking for my help as my mother's account balance was arrears by $51,000.  My brothers had fallen behind in the monthly payments, promised checks were in the mail and were not returning telephone messages or emails.  Due to the amount of the unpaid balance and the lack of contact from my brothers, the ALF was start taking legal actions.  Their attorney was going to seek temporary POA as they are concerned that my mother is a victim of elder financial abuse.  Another course of action was the possible removal of my mother from the ALF.

I called my brothers to find out what was going on.  They both blamed the ALF saying that they were being "pissy" and not willing to wait until the house sold (the house was put on the market just the day before this call).  When asked about the car and other items, their response was to blame others for not helping them.  

After several more calls with the facility, I contacted an elder law attorney.  He recommended that I petition to be my mother's conservator and guardian.  He spoke with the ALF and with their backing, he believes I have a good chance of being awarded conservatorship.  

In preparation for the hearing, I want to have a plan of action in the event I win.  I've researched what my responsibilities will be, but do you have any suggestions?  I will also be speaking with my attorney.

Thanks

[mollyanna58]

I'm sorry to hear this; it's always painful when families fight over money, and when siblings fight over what's best for their elderly parents. 

My parents recently gave me POA for their finances, but I don't know much about being named conservator.  Mainly I wanted to say that you shouldn't be discouraged if you don't get much of a response over the weekend.  Many of our members visit the site less on weekends, so you may have to wait until Monday or so.

Good luck!

[TheHaitian]

Wishing you the best of luck

All I can say is this: any relationship you ever had with your brother is dead the moment you walk into that courtroom, there is no coming back from this!

I believe your brother is up to no good and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Just remember: you are doing this for your mom and your well being!

[Jaguar]

Welcome to YMAM, Michigander.

[marvholly]

I would guesstimate there is NO money left in your parent's account which is why the care facility is being asked to wait on payment. One of the items I would DEMAND (probably will require a court order, different court I believe) is a TOTAL accounting of how parental funds have been spent over the last 10 or so years.  $51,000 is a LOT o be behind - at least 6 monhs I would think.

When/if you are appointed run, do not walk, to apply for medicaid - facility can help w/that.

[haapai]

I'm not sure whether the attorney that you speak of in the last paragraph of your OP is your new elder law specialist or an attorney that you have used for years. 

If you have a pre-existing relationship with an attorney, by all means, speak with him or her regarding this matter, and soon.  It might even be worth your time to speak with a second elder law attorney.  It's possible that the course that you are embarked upon may be a bit of a long shot.

Conservatorship means different things in different states and most people are pretty ignorant of what it means in their own state. 

[bobosensei]

mich- what is your gut feeling about what has been going on?  Do either of your brothers have a gambling or drug problem- or have they been helping themselves to small bits of money here and there which turned into more and more over time?

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this.  Cawaiu is right, that this will probably be the end of your relationship with your brothers, but you can't bother yourself with that right now.  Just focus on what is best for your mom.  Lean on your friends and other family members for support because this is going to be a long road to walk alone, and your brothers will likely get very nasty once their gravy train has come to an end.  Keep us posted here.  Even if we can't give advice we can sympathize and be an outlet for you.

[haapai]

You may be able to get some information regarding the house by googling the Michigan municipality or county in which it is located and "registrar of deeds".  There may also be a state database that you can access for quite a bit of information regarding the house, how it is held, whether it is considered owner-occupied, and, often, whether the property taxes have been paid. 

I live in Michigan and was able to glean a rather surprising amount of information regarding houses that I was considering buying by accessing looking stuff up online.  There's a bit of variation by municipality and county in the amount of information that is posted on the public sites and its timeliness, but there's quite a bit there.  At the very least, you will get some insight into how the house is titled, what the property taxes are, and how much it is assessed for and the info may be better than what is in the listing. 

[Michigander]

Thank you for your comments.  I am looking forward to other ideas as anything will be a great help.

I've accepted the fact that this action will most likely terminate the relationship with my brothers.  I can't, though, let this hinder appropriate actions to sustain my mother's care.  My husband, children, and older brother and sister are supporting this action. 

I haven't seen any obvious signs that my brothers are taking money for themselves.  But, as I don't have access to information and they have refused to discuss anything, I often wonder if they have taken money over time in small amounts.  The biggest, most obvious thing is that they failed to plan for the future.  They didn't want to take care of Mom's assets and probably thought she was going to die soon and it wouldn't be an issue.

I have two fears with this action.  One, if I am granted conservatorship, my brothers will not hand over information regarding the house, bank accounts, etc.  I stated this to my attorney, and he said he would include a time period in the court order.  My other fear is that we will have a soft judge who thinks we should work this out together, as a family, and I am then stuck with dealing with them in their mess.

I checked the assessors site and the house is still in my parent's name and the taxes are paid current.  We also drove past my one brother's house and saw my parent's car in his driveway.  Other than this, I have no clue.  

Thanks again.

[Jaguar]

Good luck with all of this.

[mojothehelpermonkey]

I am sorry you have to go through this. My mom and her sister mutually cut off their relationship after my grandpa died due to disagreements over the way he was being cared for. I don't think either of them was entirely in the wrong, it was just a bad situation to deal with. Ten years later, both my mom and aunt seem much happier not having a relationship. You should do whatever you have to for your mother, and I hope that your brothers do not make things hard for you.

[Ombud]

Aug 16, 2015 13:42:38 GMT -5 Michigander said:

I have two fears with this action.  One, if I am granted conservatorship, my brothers will not hand over information regarding the house, bank accounts, etc.  I stated this to my attorney, and he said he would include a time period in the court order.

I assume he would request that assets be immediately frozen.

[mollyanna58]

Maybe all the liquid assets have been genuinely spent on your mother's care, and the brothers just didn't plan on needing to sell the house yet. ALF's are expensive.

[whoami]

Why is the facility contacting the OP about the nonpayment, especially if she has no legal standing. Its supposed to be illegal to do that.

Im sure that payment and non payment terms are spelled out in the contract that was signed when mother moved into the facility. Why are they not pursuing that?

Im also suprised that the nurses are calling her with questions if the brothers have specifically excluded her as a POC if they have POA.  

I have been to the doctors office with my adult son and while they are happy to take my check, they wont tell me what its for unless son gave permission for me to get the info. This place sounds pretty lax with what should be confidential information. 

[Sharon]

Aug 17, 2015 20:42:30 GMT -5 whoami said:

Why is the facility contacting the OP about the nonpayment, especially if she has no legal standing. Its supposed to be illegal to do that.

Im sure that payment and non payment terms are spelled out in the contract that was signed when mother moved into the facility. Why are they not pursuing that?

Im also suprised that the nurses are calling her with questions if the brothers have specifically excluded her as a POC if they have POA.  

I have been to the doctors office with my adult son and while they are happy to take my check, they wont tell me what its for unless son gave permission for me to get the info. This place sounds pretty lax with what should be confidential information. 

If the mother is still competent she can give the ALF verbal permission to contact the daughter regarding her care.

[Ombud]

@southernsusana, assisted living is between 6-7k a month here. Not sure about their area but there is a wide variance. And I'll eventually self insure

[Michigander]

I appreciate your comments. 

The reason the ALF called me is that I visit my mother at least twice a week and the nurses have my telephone number in the event they need to contact someone.  My brothers are known for not answering their phone or returning messages.  The ALF rep called me as she was concerned about my mother's welfare, my brother's lack of attention and the possibility elder financial abuse and with those concerns, the ALF's contact with me is considered acceptable.

At the time my parents were moved to the ALF, my best guess is that they had liquid assets around $400K.  When my dad was alive, it was costing about $18K a month.  With only my mom, it's now $7,900 a month.  So easily, their care has cost ~$376K. 

My concern is the management of my mother's remaining assets going forward.   After doing more research, I believe I will need to convince the judge that I can manage things according the Michigan law.

The ALF called me today and said that a representative will be at the hearing in support of appointing me as conservator and guardian.  This will be a big help.  I'm still going to have a detailed plan of action to present at the hearing.

[mollyanna58]

Aug 19, 2015 15:19:19 GMT -5 Michigander said:

.  The ALF rep called me as she was concerned about my mother's welfare, my brother's lack of attention and the possibility elder financial abuse and with those concerns, the ALF's contact with me is considered acceptable.

At the time my parents were moved to the ALF, my best guess is that they had liquid assets around $400K.  When my dad was alive, it was costing about $18K a month.  With only my mom, it's now $7,900 a month.  So easily, their care has cost ~$376K. 

It sounds as if the liquid assets have been spent on your parents' care.  Hopefully, no elder financial abuse, just poor planning in not getting the house sold soon enough. 

[973beachbum]

How much would probably be left from the sale of the house including expenses to sell it after paying the back amount owed?

Reading the part where you think they had $400K and have to have spent at least $376K on their care to me sounds like they didn't commit financial abuse but actually spent the money on their care.  It is really easy to underestimate how long money will last in a situation like this, especially when on the the people has serious medical bills on top of the nursing home bills.

My fear would be the nursing home helping you by putting your name on the responsible party.  It happens a lot more than people hear about.  Those bills can be huge and people don't realize when they sign that they are not just necessarily signing as the person to call and make decisions, but actually can be put down as the person who has to pay the bill if need be.

I'm not saying they are doing this but be very wary before signing anything the nursing home hands you!

[zibazinski]

Absolutely. Read everything twice and then have someone else read it as well. They sneak a paragraph in and hope they catch you.

[Bonny]

You don't need to be paranoid about it but you do need to be careful. I would have the elder law attorney review the contract after your review. Don't sign anything right away.

Welcome to the board and good luck!

[Michigander]

Many thanks to everyone.

According to Michigan law, a conservator is not liable for the protected person's liabilities, but has the legal responsibility to manage the finances in the best interest of the person.  I will, though, make sure to review everything, carefully, with the assistance of my attorney, before signing anything.

I realize that the ALF's interest isn't just for the care of my mother.  They aren't being my "friend" - they want to get paid!!!  

My main concern is my mother's continued care and the protection of her remaining assets.  If the house sells, I would be very concerned about how my brother's would manage several hundred thousand dollars. My brother's lack of communication and sneakiness makes me very nervous.

I hope all of you have a wonderful weekend.

[happyhoix]

It sounds as if the ALF is at the point of evicting the mom for nonpayment, so they contacted the OP since the brothers have so far not been responsive to their request for payment.

The ALF may not accept medicare patients. When we were shopping for a facility for my mother, the elder lawyer we were working with told us we needed to be sure, up front, if the facility accepted medicare or not. If they did not, they would require our Mom to move to a different facility when her funds ran out. He said if we picked a facility that did NOT accept medicare, we should arrange to move our mother to one that did while she still had about $80,000 in assets to her name, because nursing homes would be more likely to accept a patient that still had some money, rather than patients who are dependent only on SSI and medicare. (There are apparently always more patients than available beds for facilities that accept medicare).

So far, our mom still has about $200,000, but I know if she outlives her money she can't stay where she is, because they don't accept medicare patients.

Michigander, sorry about this whole mess. I don't know if your brothers squandered your parents' money, or if they just are not very organized and don't plan in advance. Not sure why they didn't include you in the planning from the beginning, it would have made things transparent (it's what my sisters and I did, even the sister who doesn't get along with others). Good luck.  

[Michigander]

**Update**

We had our day in court last Thursday.  The Guardian Ad Litem was ready to support her recommendation of removing my brothers as POAs.  As she recommended a court appointed third party agent, that agent was also present.  A representative from the ALF was present with records in hand regarding non-payment, numerous messages, etc.  My attorney thought this was a done deal and that the process would probably take less than 15 minutes.  

But....the judge adjourned the court date until September 24th.  My youngest brother has his mail sent to a post office box and his attorney stated that since "he doesn't frequently check his PO box, he was not notified in a timely basis".  My attorney disputed that because 1) there is another POA involved that was notified and had spoken with the Guardian Ad Litem and 2) the Guardian Ad Litem has left several voicemail messages for my youngest brother (which he never returned), that my brother was notified in time.  The judge gave my brother the benefit of he doubt and set a new court date for next month.

Meanwhile, my brothers have not contacted the ALF and have dropped the selling price of the house by $20K.  The ALF is moving forward with their legal action which is to send notifications that my mother is in jeopardy of having the leave the ALF.  The ALF told me that they would hold off on actions if I or a court appointed third party agent was granted conservatorship, but not my brothers.  

So now we wait another month.  

[zibazinski]

Can they just put her out on the street?

[TheHaitian]

Aug 29, 2015 13:47:07 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Can they just put her out on the street?

I am guessing it is no different than a landlord evicting a tenant for non payment.

Probably call social services and make it their problem to find her a suitable home where the government picks up the tab and go after the brothers for money (house etc)...

Good luck OP

[Bonny]

Aug 29, 2015 14:25:26 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Aug 29, 2015 13:47:07 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Can they just put her out on the street?

I am guessing it is no different than a landlord evicting a tenant for non payment.

Probably call social services and make it their problem to find her a suitable home where the government picks up the tab and go after the brothers for money (house etc)...

Good luck OP

I suspect the laws are different for ALFs.

That said, this is probably not the first time the ALF has run into this problem and are doing the CYA thing. And the judge is covering his/her butt to make his/her decision less likely to be appealed.

OP I think your attorney should write a very strong letter to the two brothers about not making any major financial decisions without getting your consent.

What a mess; I'm sorry.

[mmhmm]

Welcome out of "lurkdom", Michigander. I'm sorry it took something like this to bring you out, but glad you're here!

I haven't any advice for you as I think this is a serious enough matter that you should rely on your elder law attorney. That person is going to know best your local laws, state laws, and anything else that applies. It sounds like you've got good backing from your older siblings and the ALF. That's surely going to serve in your favor.

Best of luck with this. I hope all turns out right for you and for your mom. 

[Michigander]

**Update**

The judge ordered mediation, so we will be meeting on September 16th to discuss this matter.  My attorney stated that my brothers and I will be in separate rooms and a retired judge will listen to each parties' request for the resolution this matter.  The judge will then pass the information amongst the parties and hope for a decision.

Has anyone ever been involved with mediation and if so, do you have any tips to pass along? 

Many thanks

[The Captain]

Michigander - no tips but want to wish you well and thank you so much for sharing your experiences on the board.  Whether or not you realize it, you are helping others who will find themselves in a similar situation.