Could Unlimited Vacation Time Work For Your Company?

[souldoubt]

Oddly enough we had lunch with a former auditor in the last month or two that works for a company that has a policy like this.  My first thought was "no way something like that would work" but that's just me being the guy who tracks PTO and sees what our liability is.  After talking about it more it seemed more plausible but it's still not something I think would work at a lot of companies.  Personally here I prefer my PTO because we don't have a use it or lose it policy and if I were to leave right now I'd get a nice payout.  

[Tiny]

I already accrue 6 weeks of vacation a year... and I dread taking a week off - when I get back from 'vacation' there's just a pile of 'work' I need to do from the week I was gone PLUS the stuff coming in currently.

I tend to schedule 3 and 4 day 'weekends' thru out the year - or I do something where I take off one day (usually a tues or a Wednesday) a week for a month or 6 weeks. I also usually cash out 5 days each year.

Unlimited 'vacation' wouldn't help me at all... I really wish I could take a 5 week 'sabbatical' (leaving 3 to 5 days in reserve - for "life happens" - things like medical emergency or wakes/funerals.) I shudder at what kind of a mess I would have to dig out from if I wasn't at work for that long.

[Tiny]

Actually, I would take 'unlimited' vacation.... I'd probably be able to swing "4 day work weeks" indefinitely then... I wouldn't use 'vacation' time during weeks when there was an official "Holiday" day off (so a 4 or 3 day work week already).

For a while I was flirting with the maximum amount of accrued PTO - and struggling to use it or loose it - while continuing to accrue time... I did some math and figured I could just work 4 day weeks - for months before I'd make a dent in my PTO balance... I ran that idea past my boss - and he said he couldn't agree to that up front. That was when I started the strings of 4 day work weeks with a full work week and then a 3 day week and then a string of 4 day work weeks with a 5 day vacation week... in an attempt to use up PTO and NOT have an unbearable 'work load' at work.       I know keep my PTO balance manageable AND try to take off time without it becoming a PITA to myself and the people I support.

Unlimited PTO - would mean I could go to the working "full time" via 4 work days a week.

[jptheplanner]

We have unlimited vacation where I work and I'll tell you that people take about the same amount of vacation as we had before if not less.  Most of my coworkers have taken a week during the summer, and will probably take a week during Christmas/New Year's and then a few days here and there.  It's really not possible to go on a long extended vacation (2 weeks is really the max) because of our volume of work.  As a manager I haven't had too many problems with this as there hasn't been any abuse, but I think that's because we are in a start up.  We very much go by the "as long as you get your work done" rule.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

It wouldn't work for the company I retired from.

1. We had a large manufacturing department that required things get done in an orderly time. Couldn't wait for a certain employee to arrive or shift jobs around daily.

2. We were a defense contractor and PTO pay came from overhead. It wasn't charged to the government. Overhead raises the cost of our project bids.

[souldoubt]

Aug 13, 2015 16:01:47 GMT -5 jptheplanner said:

We have unlimited vacation where I work and I'll tell you that people take about the same amount of vacation as we had before if not less.  Most of my coworkers have taken a week during the summer, and will probably take a week during Christmas/New Year's and then a few days here and there.  It's really not possible to go on a long extended vacation (2 weeks is really the max) because of our volume of work.  As a manager I haven't had too many problems with this as there hasn't been any abuse, but I think that's because we are in a start up.  We very much go by the "as long as you get your work done" rule.

The person we talked to said the same thing.  He also said someone somewhere in HR is probably tracking it to ensure people aren't abusing the setup.  

[Deleted]

There are some stories I wish I could tell but I can't risk someone reading who knew the situation (no matter how unlikely)

You all would say no fing way.

[Angel!]

Aug 13, 2015 15:07:58 GMT -5 imawino said:

I don't think I understand the point of an "unlimited" vacation time policy. Of course it's not truly unlimited - you can't just stop coming to work and keep getting paid. It's a reasonable amount of time off, right?   So, just offer employees a reasonably generous  and defined amount of time off and avoid the confusion and varying interpretations by each manager in an organization of what constitutes reasonable.  I guarantee you that anyone whose reaction is "that's a GREAT IDEA" is planning to take off way more time than they have now. 

The thing is if you give them a generous identified amount of vacation, they will use every bit of it.   So you've got folks like Tiny struggling to take 6 weeks/year because they don't want to lose their benefit.  Many of those folks would take less when the amount is not identified & it is just considered "unlimited".   My guess is the most of higher up people actually use less when it is unlimited, which saves the company money.

But it will depend on the environment. I think it would only work with professionals that care about their work & feel responsible to get it done.  The article talks about hiring the right people and I think that is key. 

[emma1420]

Aug 13, 2015 16:27:10 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Aug 13, 2015 15:07:58 GMT -5 imawino said:

I don't think I understand the point of an "unlimited" vacation time policy. Of course it's not truly unlimited - you can't just stop coming to work and keep getting paid. It's a reasonable amount of time off, right?   So, just offer employees a reasonably generous  and defined amount of time off and avoid the confusion and varying interpretations by each manager in an organization of what constitutes reasonable.  I guarantee you that anyone whose reaction is "that's a GREAT IDEA" is planning to take off way more time than they have now. 

The thing is if you give them a generous identified amount of vacation, they will use every bit of it.   So you've got folks like Tiny struggling to take 6 weeks/year because they don't want to lose their benefit.  Many of those folks would take less when the amount is not identified & it is just considered "unlimited".   My guess is the most of higher up people actually use less when it is unlimited, which saves the company money.

But it will depend on the environment. I think it would only work with professionals that care about their work & feel responsible to get it done.  The article talks about hiring the right people and I think that is key. 

I think this is key.  I think this sort of policy works in companies where people who are unproductive are routinely let go.  However, I think for most organisations there are always those people who get inherited who are slackers and/or are new hires who turn out to be slackers and in those companies this sort of policy won't work, especially if there isn't already a culture in place that won't stand for that behaviour.

[svwashout]

It seems to be doing fine where I work. When we introduced it, the main complaint was about how the vacation sell-back program was eliminated as a consequence. That and no more payout for accrued vacation when we terminate. That's some real cash savings to the company-- provided the same work gets done. I guess management figured forcing people to come in when they didn't want to hasn't been adding anything to the bottom line anyway.

They also probably figure the novelty of this approach will prompt those who like it to make sure it works out well. I don't know if it's sustainable longer-term if some individuals start to believe others are taking advantage of the system. There's the question of fairness, should people still take vacation time proportional to their seniority, or was that system broken and everyone should now be expected to take equal time regardless of length of service?  And how to fold in sick time, family medical leave, etc.

[plugginaway22]

No way it could work in Healthcare!  We need staff to work based on patient schedules, doctor's vacations, etc, etc.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Obviously it doesn't work for every sort of work, but for those positions where it does, think of it not as "unlimited vacation" - though that is sexy and gets headlines-- but as "results only work environment" or ROWE.  It has been tried with mixed reviews. 

My personal opinion from experience is that the world is heading off in two distinctly different directions.  One side sees the potential for technology to be liberating; enabling intelligent, autonomous self-starters the ability to work and collaborate anywhere; a means of attracting the top talent from around the world without geographic limitations.  The other sees it as a means of controlling a workforce full of little more than apes, and ensuring they never leave the electronic plantation.  One side sees the amazing potential of using technology to analyze data to measure bottom line results, spot problems, identify opportunities, and explore new horizons.  The other side sees it as a means of knowing where every employee physically is, counting minutes at desk, in bathroom, or at lunch; a means of creating additional work for work's sake and never asking if the information is meaningful in terms of the bottom line.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 13, 2015 15:31:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Aug 13, 2015 14:12:26 GMT -5 emma1420 said:

It wouldn't work where I work.  Well it would work for my department and perhaps one other, but organization wide it wouldn't.

we have too many people who would abuse that sort of policy.  We get tons of PTO as it is, and we already have an issue with our receptionist taking off every Monday because she finds sorting the mail to be too stressful.  I suspect about 20% of our staff would abuse that sort of policy, because they don't really care if their work gets done or not.  It's also why no one is allowed to work from home regularly because when we had that policy it was horribly abused (which sucks for those of us who didn't abuse the policy).

I'll bet if she was cut to part-time, she'd find sorting mail to be not as stressful as not being able to pay her bills. Or losing her benefits.

www.earthclassmail.com Fired the admin / assistant two years ago and never looked back.  www.taskrabbit.com , or www.getfriday.com when you need help with something specific- pay as you go.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 13, 2015 16:06:07 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Aug 13, 2015 16:01:47 GMT -5 jptheplanner said:

We have unlimited vacation where I work and I'll tell you that people take about the same amount of vacation as we had before if not less.  Most of my coworkers have taken a week during the summer, and will probably take a week during Christmas/New Year's and then a few days here and there.  It's really not possible to go on a long extended vacation (2 weeks is really the max) because of our volume of work.  As a manager I haven't had too many problems with this as there hasn't been any abuse, but I think that's because we are in a start up.  We very much go by the "as long as you get your work done" rule.

The person we talked to said the same thing.  He also said someone somewhere in HR is probably tracking it to ensure people aren't abusing the setup.  

The problem with this is that once you cloud the definition of vacation / pto / sick time etc and call it unlimited, you can't credibly accuse someone of abusing it. The only thing you can track of any consequence is performance.

[thyme4change]

Aug 13, 2015 14:43:41 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Aug 13, 2015 14:40:03 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The reality is that vacation tracking just turns into a task for each individual manager, instead of HR or accounting. Part of the policy is that time off is "reasonable " and approved by your manager. Most managers are going to think reasonable is the average of what everyone took last year, give or take a couple days. If the manager starts approving 90 days of vacation per year, he isn't going to last long.

This is an accounting decision to get the vacation accrual off their books and avoid the vacation payout when someone quits.

The simpler solution to that would be to simply stop vacation accrual and payout. Personally I think it's a lot more about implementation in instances where you have highly motivated employees who will take less time off than they otherwise would in a limited time-off environment.

By accounting rules, you can't "simply" stop vacation accruals and payouts.  GE did this for monetary gain.  This was the most legal/safe/compliant way to get rid of vacation expense on their P&L.  According to my source at GE, this has nothing to do with convincing hard working employees to take more vacation time.  At no point were managers told to encourage workers to utilize the new policy.  It was a wink-wink, track their time and keep it "reasonable."  They were told that they expect no material increase in the number of vacation days utilized per year.  

[jelloshots4all]

Thanks for all the comments! Great feedback! I do work for a manufacturing company and this would be limited to salaried positions as we need to produce our product.

Luckily my company is flexible work/life.  Only upper management has laptops and cell phones, but they truly respect time off for vacations and only call if there is an emergency.

With summer vacations and a slim salaried employees he asked me to look into this.  We have numerous employees that take 2 weeks off straight, and it can leave us short handed.  He wondered if we gave them this option with a laptop and company cell would they take it?  My response was no, as they leave the office and don't work, nor want to be bothered.

I do live by the unlimited time off with my staff.  Get your job done, if you need to leave early, go for it.  I do all the time for my kids activities.  But I will make up the time in the evenings and weekends if needed.  But I also know I have that flexibility with my role, and strive to always meet deadlines (even while I am on vacation).

[jelloshots4all]

Thyme, I agree. And anyone I know whom has worked for GE works a ton of hours. Also, GE needs to have a reasonable accrual for vacation time as this is audited. I have audited this and been audited. I also worked in public accounting and we could take "comp Time", which didn't show up on the books either

[Anne_in_VA]

I'm also one of those who rarely uses all my PTO time each year. Not because I don't want to, but my work is driven by client requirements and I just can't take time off if a proposal is due.  This year my manager has been out on disability and it's been really hard to even schedule time off.  Even when I'm off, if something comes up that I need to deal with, I end up working as long as it takes to finish.

I'm currently almost at the max PTO allowed and am taking most Friday's off but in reality I usually work at least part of the day.

[emma1420]

Aug 13, 2015 22:07:19 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Obviously it doesn't work for every sort of work, but for those positions where it does, think of it not as "unlimited vacation" - though that is sexy and gets headlines-- but as "results only work environment" or ROWE.  It has been tried with mixed reviews. 

My personal opinion from experience is that the world is heading off in two distinctly different directions.  One side sees the potential for technology to be liberating; enabling intelligent, autonomous self-starters the ability to work and collaborate anywhere; a means of attracting the top talent from around the world without geographic limitations.  The other sees it as a means of controlling a workforce full of little more than apes, and ensuring they never leave the electronic plantation.  One side sees the amazing potential of using technology to analyze data to measure bottom line results, spot problems, identify opportunities, and explore new horizons.  The other side sees it as a means of knowing where every employee physically is, counting minutes at desk, in bathroom, or at lunch; a means of creating additional work for work's sake and never asking if the information is meaningful in terms of the bottom line.

ROWE doesn't work for every position, especially lower level positions where face-time is critical given their job duties.  However, I also think there is a third type of employer.  The ones that embrace a lot of the new technology, but don't trust their rank and file employee.  Where I work, our senior staff (the equivalent of our C-suite) have the option to work from home, telecommute, and the other perks that technology has provided.  However, everyone else is still chained to their desk during normal business hours, because the same staff who enjoys those options are old school enough that they don't believe anyone else can be trusted to get their work done (despite the fact we have many high performers) unless it's a weekend or vacation.

i suspect that a lot of that thinking is generational.  The majority of our senior staff are baby boomers, and most will be retiring in the next five or six years.  I think when they leave some of their outdated policies will leave as well.

[thyme4change]

Aug 13, 2015 19:39:16 GMT -5 plugginaway22 said:

No way it could work in Healthcare!  We need staff to work based on patient schedules, doctor's vacations, etc, etc.

I still don't understand how having a policy where you have to get your time off approved and scheduled in advance causes a problem.  Especially since the time off has to be approved and scheduled.  It isn't like you decide you want a vacation day, so you just don't show up to work.  You still have to tell your boss ahead of time, and the boss has to approve it, and the boss would look at the schedule during the approval process to see if they have someone else to cover the shift that day.  The only difference between this and a policy with a set number of vacation days is who is tasked with counting those days.  So, just because it is unlimited doesn't mean it doesn't still have to get approved by the boss, and put on the schedule just as any other vacation day.  

[justme]

I'd love it. But I'd prefer a more performance based work style. Tell me what you need, when you need it by, and let me do it. I hate having to sit my butt in a seat to get 40 hours when I'm just twiddling my thumbs because I have everything I need done done and the things not done I have time to do another day.

I guess I some ways I'd prefer independent contracting on a pay by job basis, but in the finance industry I don't think that's how a lot do it.

[thyme4change]

Aug 14, 2015 8:28:43 GMT -5 justme said:

I'd love it. But I'd prefer a more performance based work style. Tell me what you need, when you need it by, and let me do it. I hate having to sit my butt in a seat to get 40 hours when I'm just twiddling my thumbs because I have everything I need done done and the things not done I have time to do another day.

I guess I some ways I'd prefer independent contracting on a pay by job basis, but in the finance industry I don't think that's how a lot do it.

Do people with desk jobs ever actually "finish?"  I have never once in my entire working career had an empty to do list.  I recall getting laid off at a company that was closing, and I still was asked to leave a list of things that needed to be done before they turned off the lights.  If I couldn't leave my desk until my work was done, I would never, ever go home.  In 24 years, I have not once in my entire career sat at my desk "twiddling" my thumbs.  There is always someone who wants something - actually there is always multiple someones who want many things.  The hardest part of my job has always been prioritizing which things come first.  Am I doing this wrong?  How does everyone else actually 'finish' their work?

[whoisjohngalt]

I used to work for a company that had unlimited sick leave.  the kicker was the the first day was not "free" - it was either deducted from your pay or vacation time.

You'd be surprised how much less Monday and Friday-"sick" people we had compared to other companies I worked for.

I think very few people would take advantage (i.e abused) unlimited anything

[zibazinski]

Aug 14, 2015 8:49:37 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I used to work for a company that had unlimited sick leave.  the kicker was the the first day was not "free" - it was either deducted from your pay or vacation time.

You'd be surprised how much less Monday and Friday-"sick" people we had compared to other companies I worked for.

I think very few people would take advantage (i.e abused) unlimited anything

That's a very good plan!

[Angel!]

Aug 14, 2015 8:35:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Aug 14, 2015 8:28:43 GMT -5 justme said:

I'd love it. But I'd prefer a more performance based work style. Tell me what you need, when you need it by, and let me do it. I hate having to sit my butt in a seat to get 40 hours when I'm just twiddling my thumbs because I have everything I need done done and the things not done I have time to do another day.

I guess I some ways I'd prefer independent contracting on a pay by job basis, but in the finance industry I don't think that's how a lot do it.

Do people with desk jobs ever actually "finish?"  I have never once in my entire working career had an empty to do list.  I recall getting laid off at a company that was closing, and I still was asked to leave a list of things that needed to be done before they turned off the lights.  If I couldn't leave my desk until my work was done, I would never, ever go home.  In 24 years, I have not once in my entire career sat at my desk "twiddling" my thumbs.  There is always someone who wants something - actually there is always multiple someones who want many things.  The hardest part of my job has always been prioritizing which things come first.  Am I doing this wrong?  How does everyone else actually 'finish' their work?

I've run out of work.  I'm billable, so once I run out of billable work (and proposal work) I consider myself 'finished'.  At that point you try to find useful things to do...organize your desk or something else in the office, training, create a spreadsheet that could be of use later, etc.  But for the most part it is busy work until you get something that actually brings in money to the company.

It is pretty rare now, but during one year of the recession I only had 1,000 billable hours which was both boring & scary.  It did leave me a lot of time to study for my PE.

[Angel!]

Aug 13, 2015 22:13:25 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 13, 2015 16:06:07 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

The person we talked to said the same thing.  He also said someone somewhere in HR is probably tracking it to ensure people aren't abusing the setup.  

The problem with this is that once you cloud the definition of vacation / pto / sick time etc and call it unlimited, you can't credibly accuse someone of abusing it. The only thing you can track of any consequence is performance.

But you can reward performance. If someone wants to take more vacation than the others, fine.  But you won't get as big a raise, you won't get as big of bonus, you won't get a promotion, unless you are still managing to outperform & get more done than the others that take less vacation.

[zibazinski]

Aug 14, 2015 10:53:31 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Aug 13, 2015 22:13:25 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The problem with this is that once you cloud the definition of vacation / pto / sick time etc and call it unlimited, you can't credibly accuse someone of abusing it. The only thing you can track of any consequence is performance.

But you can reward performance. If someone wants to take more vacation than the others, fine.  But you won't get as big a raise, you won't get as big of bonus, you won't get a promotion, unless you are still managing to outperform & get more done than the others that take less vacation.

Our top salesperson leaves early and takes long weekends, a lot. He bikes in races. Nevertheless, he brought in over 300k in sales last year and besides his salary got a 60k bonus. DH doesn't care if he ever comes in as long as he performs and he does. It's all about the numbers. The loser I fired put in plenty of hours, just accomplished nothing while he was there.

[trimatty471]

Aug 13, 2015 11:46:49 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

I don't know if this topic has been previously discussed, but our management team had a discussion on this last week.  I wanted to see what the YMers thoughts were.

Hopefully the links work

www.forbes.com/sites/dailymuse/2014/10/29/could-unlimited-vacation-time-work-for-your-company/3/

money.cnn.com/2015/07/13/pf/general-electric-unlimited-paid-time-off/

No way.  People abuse sick time now.

[movingforward]

It really should be about performance and productivity rather than how many hours a person's butt sits in a seat.  One employee who reports to me has scaled back to 36 hrs per week because he started pursing his MBA this past January.  It has been six months and his work hasn't suffered at all.  Meanwhile, another employee (who has been at the organization for 16 yrs) stays until 10PM some nights and is highly unproductive. 

[mojothehelpermonkey]

I think it could work really well in some situations, but would be a disaster for other types of jobs. I actually prefer to have a set amount of vacation/sick days. When I had a job with unlimited time off, I was less likely to use it because I did not want to abuse the system.
At the same time, I have wished that upper management valued productivity over face time in pretty much every job I have had.