Just how much do you want neighbors?

[msventoux]

An acquaintance is having a house built in a new cohousing development that a local builder is trying to get started.  I think it was around $400K for a rather small two bedroom house, outrageous for that area.

She doesn't know what the screening criteria is for admitting new people, other than they want a "diverse range of residents" and she was accepted. She doesn't know if there's any restrictions on who can move in or if renters are allowed, doesn't know what the equivalent of homeowners dues will be. "It's all so new, they're still working out all the details." And she gave them a substantial deposit.

She's in love with the idea of having neighbors to do things with, sharing communal meals every night in the common house, having a community garden, etc.  I get wanting a community connection, but to me it sounds like an expensive hell.  It's great if you're a social creature and hit it off with all of your neighbors.  But what happens if the neighbors are jerks or you don't hit it off?  Would you pay a premium to live in a  communal environment? 


From the Cohousing website:
"Cohousing communities are usually designed as attached or single-family homes along one or more pedestrian streets or clustered around a central courtyard. Communities range in size from 7 to 67 units, the majority of them housing 20 to 40 households. Because neighbors commit to a relationship with one another, most cohousing communities use consensus as the basis for group decision-making.

The common house is the social center of a cohousing community. Most common houses include a large dining room and kitchen, lounge, recreational facilities, children’s spaces, and frequently, a guest room, workshop, and laundry room. The common house is a great place for dining, celebrations, and entertainment. Communities may also serve optional group meals in the common house several times a week. Regardless of the size of the community, there are many opportunities for casual meetings between neighbors, as well as for deliberate gatherings such as traditions, clubs, and business meetings. "

[milee]

That is my idea of Hell. I might be able to survive that kind of arrangement if I were to be able to personally select all the other people that lived there, but no way otherwise.   So in other words, there is no way I would be happy with this type of living. 

Heck, I'm getting kind of irritated with the people building the new mega mansion one house over from me.  It's a nice house and they seem like nice people, but it's taken just over a year now for the construction.  A year of noise, dirt and constantly having to seek out whichever jackass has parked the truck/backhoe/loader/pallets that are blocking me in my driveway have grown tiresome.  And it's not a whole lot better since last week when they began moving in.  They want to protect their pristine custom white concrete with decorative shell embedded driveway, so have blocked it off, forcing all the moving, landscaping and final construction trucks to park in ways that block the rest of us.  So I don't even have to live with these people and I'm totally over it. 

Share a common house with people - all of whom have different ideas about cleaning, noise, behavior, etc?  Um, no.  No, thanks.  I'd rather stick a fork in my eyeball.

[andi9899]

Aug 6, 2015 20:51:02 GMT -5 milee said:

That is my idea of Hell. I might be able to survive that kind of arrangement if I were to be able to personally select all the other people that lived there, but no way otherwise.   So in other words, there is no way I would be happy with this type of living. 

Heck, I'm getting kind of irritated with the people building the new mega mansion one house over from me.  It's a nice house and they seem like nice people, but it's taken just over a year now for the construction.  A year of noise, dirt and constantly having to seek out whichever jackass has parked the truck/backhoe/loader/pallets that are blocking me in my driveway have grown tiresome.  And it's not a whole lot better since last week when they began moving in.  They want to protect their pristine custom white concrete with decorative shell embedded driveway, so have blocked it off, forcing all the moving, landscaping and final construction trucks to park in ways that block the rest of us.  So I don't even have to live with these people and I'm totally over it. 

Share a common house with people - all of whom have different ideas about cleaning, noise, behavior, etc?  Um, no.  No, thanks.  I'd rather stick a fork in my eyeball.

Agreed. I live in a neighborhood that is old and the houses are right on top of each other. I'm so over neighbors. I walked out the door this morning and thought that someone was in my back yard talking. No. The neighbors had their windows open. I need to move.

[TheOtherMe]

Back in the 70's, I lived in a commune.  That was a long time ago and once was enough.  No co-housing for me. 

[Lizard Queen]

It sounds like senior apartment communities to me. Maybe if I were feeling really lonely, but i much prefer to do my own thing. I'm extremely private, especially when I'm feeling artsy, so I'd probably hate it.

[thyme4change]

After watching a piece on an early co-housing place in Europe (Denmark?? I can't quite recall) I dream about winning the lottery and buying one of the houses in our neighborhood and turning it into a communal dining room.  Cooking only every once in a while, and eating with friends often - even more so when the kids were young and I could have used a minute to myself.  I would structure mine on a more a voluntary basis.  

[Tiny]

How does this differ from an condo or townehouse complex? You know, a bunch of buildings with multi dwellings - you could be on top of your neighbors or next to your neighbors - but you've got a bunch of 'common' elements - like a common court yard (or area with a pond) they also may have a pool (or pools) and a clubhouse(s) and common exercise rooms, etc... there's an elected board to administer the over all property (aka an HOA) -- for say a grouping of just 12 or fewer units or fewer there may just be a "head person" but everyone participates in the decisions and go to meetings - were in a bigger complex (say 25 or 50 or 100 units) everyone is invited but they could send in a Proxy if they don't want to go to the meetings.

I don't see how co-housing is different than a condo or town house subdivision with an HOA...

I agree that the whole HOA thing is a pain in the ass especially if you value your unique identity and aren't a neat freak or a control freak (you know where your neighbor's slightly overgrown shrubbery and the bit of mismatched paint on their house don't keep you up at night ruminating on how HORRIBLE they are).

I'm not ready to cede my identity to a HOA or give up having some say over how the exterior of my "home" looks... I'm sure at some point I won't care -- it will become "small stuff" and I'll be happy to conform because I don't want to spend time on 'not' conforming.

I wouldn't be buying into the development like in the OP - especially since there are no rules already in place - I'd have NO idea what kind of Nirvana or Snake Pit I would be buying into... atleast with an established area I could look over the rules and take alook around and get the vibe of the neighborhood.


FWIW: a co-worker's elderly mother lives out of state in a Senior Community. Something happened and the other old people started snubbing and ostracizing my coworker's mother. It's all starting to sound a lot like Jr. High... at this point my coworker isn't sure what to do - the animosity between the old people is getting ugly and the Senior Community "people in charge" don't seem to want to do anything. I can't imaging being old and being trapped with people you have grown to HATE (even if some of the people are on the dementia road).

[Tiny]

Aug 6, 2015 22:35:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

After watching a piece on an early co-housing place in Europe (Denmark?? I can't quite recall) I dream about winning the lottery and buying one of the houses in our neighborhood and turning it into a communal dining room.  Cooking only every once in a while, and eating with friends often - even more so when the kids were young and I could have used a minute to myself.  I would structure mine on a more a voluntary basis.  

I read something about a building in NY that was once "single room only" hotel/apartments - some had a small bathroom or else there was a communal bathroom -  and NONE had kitchens.  Kinda like an old time College Dorm (I never went away to school - and it seems like all my friends kids and nieces/nephews who lived on campus had "dorm suites" that were basically 2 and 3 bedroom apartments....)  

Anyway the old building was rehabbed into modern one room apartments.  Each floor has a communal kitchen.  Some floors have communal bathrooms.  Some floors have units with small bathrooms.      The draw was that it was cheaper to rent one of these rooms than to rent an actual 1 bed apartment.  The main "market" for this type of rental was single young people (who mostly came 'home' to sleep) or people who traveled a lot for work or some of the Artsy People who I guess didn't have full time jobs with regular hours?    Anyway... I could totally see my younger self living in something like this - when I was working full time and going to night school.  I pretty much only came home to sleep - and then wake up, shower and start another day to come home and sleep... rinse and repeat.   

I can see RENTING something like this = I can't really see buying into it and going long term (5/10/20 years).

The article also talked about how it was popular to 'apartment' share - basically one person (or couple) was the main renter for an apartment and then they 'sublet' bedrooms to other people.  Usually the primary person on the lease spent the most time in the unit - the other renters - either traveled a lot or weren't home a lot.  They wanted/needed the "prestigious" address (or shorter commute) and so were willing to 'rent' a room.   It seemed to be working for the 3 or 4 different "arrangements" that were described in the article. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

At this stage in my life, I need my private, personal, quiet time. I spend all day around people and raising my children.  I couldn't have a common kitchen with several families as a permanent situation. We vacation with family members and one set of friends, but we couldn't do that as an actual living situation. We also live on a cul-de-sac and rarely do anything other than wave to our neighbors. I'm consistently irrated with the neighbors directly to our left. Their adult children park in a way that almost but quite blocks our driveway. Because we can still technically get out, we don't complain. Just this week, I've realized (after almost three years of living here) that if I back into my driveway, then I can get out easily. I'm not good at backing up though. The new Honda Accord has a back-up camera, so that's what made me realize I could do it it this way. We have a large backyard that is quite private and we can sit out there in peace. 

I could see in the future, without having children at home, and possibly living on my own (DH is 15 years old than I am and statistically I will live 15 - 25 years without him), that I would not want to be isolated and potentially living in that type of communal situation could be good for me. 

[thyme4change]

Aug 6, 2015 23:22:31 GMT -5 Tiny said:

How does this differ from an condo or townehouse complex? You know, a bunch of buildings with multi dwellings - you could be on top of your neighbors or next to your neighbors - but you've got a bunch of 'common' elements - like a common court yard (or area with a pond) they also may have a pool (or pools) and a clubhouse(s) and common exercise rooms, etc... there's an elected board to administer the over all property (aka an HOA) -- for say a grouping of just 12 or fewer units or fewer there may just be a "head person" but everyone participates in the decisions and go to meetings - were in a bigger complex (say 25 or 50 or 100 units) everyone is invited but they could send in a Proxy if they don't want to go to the meetings.

I don't see how co-housing is different than a condo or town house subdivision with an HOA...

The one that I saw - it was communal living.  Part of the contract was that you had a certain number of meals together, and you had to participate in the community, or they would kick you out.  They had a schedule of who cooked, and who shopped, etc.  You had to be on the schedule.  You had to do your part.  Condos are individual homes where people can do their own thing and if you never, ever talk to another neighbor - so be it.  In co-housing, they interview people before they move in, and make sure they fit in.  They also have a certain mix they are looking for - so they have a number in mind of how many people will be retired, how many will be families, how many will have young kids, how many will have older kids, etc.  They don't get a homogeneous group.  So, if you are young and pregnant, but they already have too many young moms, and they want to slide in a few senior citizens, you can't move in.  

So, the 'housing' part of it may look similar, but the community part of it is mandatory and enforced - which is very different.  

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

How do "they" get around discrimination laws?

[msventoux]

The public spaces of the community are emphasized more than the private spaces.  You do have to commit to so many hours/projects per month and rotate through all of the various tasks.  All of the maintenance on all of the units and common areas are done by the residents.  The intention is that you don't hire anything out unless it's catastrophic or very specialized.  They'll have a workshop with tools and the residents are all supposed to help each other with maintenance and repairs on the private and public spaces.

You don't have a private garage.  There's a communal garage away from the housing units and you have to walk a meandering path through a courtyard to get to your house so you're forced to interact with the other residents. If you have visitors they're expected to stay in the common house guest rooms so they can interact with everyone in the community as well.  Everyone will know your business. 

This acquaintance is a bit of a princess so it was fun to point out that if everyone is expected to cycle through all of the maintenance tasks that at some point she will have to shovel snow at -15 degrees, mow the lawn and clean some toilets...all of which she hires out now. 

[Deleted]

It sounded good to me till it got to the "expensive" and "mandatory" parts.  I'm a bit of an introvert so having socialization available when I'm open to it would be good for me.  Having to commit to spending so much time with the group would be a turnoff.  I'm pretty easygoing and can talk with just about anyone, but there will still be people I don't like, have nothing in common with, whatever, and there will be times I just want to hang out in my place and vegetate.  I also find it hard to believe that everyone will be equally competent and reliable at everything on the task list. Some will have high standards and edge the lawn after they mow it; some will serve Tater Tots with Cheez Whiz for dinner. 

Not for me.

[haapai]

Mandatory socializing, mandatory meetings, consensus decision-making (i.e. the holdouts win) and moving out costs at least a year of mortgage payments ... sounds like #@!!  I'd be the person with the tall bushes on the street side who secretly entered and exited her residence through the basement window hidden behind them. 

[yogiii]

I'd rather live out a Golden Girls scenario, fyi I'm Sophia.

[Ryan]

I consider being friends with neighbors to be something that’s an added bonus, but not something I think about when buying a house. I don’t want to have to hang out with people just because they live close to me. There aren’t a ton of younger families or kids by me now, but I don’t really care that much. When I was growing up, there were a lot of kids around my area and I kinda hated being forced to always play with the kids next door.

[NancysSummerSip]

Aug 6, 2015 20:51:02 GMT -5 milee said:

That is my idea of Hell. I might be able to survive that kind of arrangement if I were to be able to personally select all the other people that lived there, but no way otherwise.   So in other words, there is no way I would be happy with this type of living. 

Heck, I'm getting kind of irritated with the people building the new mega mansion one house over from me.  It's a nice house and they seem like nice people, but it's taken just over a year now for the construction.  A year of noise, dirt and constantly having to seek out whichever jackass has parked the truck/backhoe/loader/pallets that are blocking me in my driveway have grown tiresome.  And it's not a whole lot better since last week when they began moving in.  They want to protect their pristine custom white concrete with decorative shell embedded driveway, so have blocked it off, forcing all the moving, landscaping and final construction trucks to park in ways that block the rest of us.  So I don't even have to live with these people and I'm totally over it. 

Share a common house with people - all of whom have different ideas about cleaning, noise, behavior, etc?  Um, no.  No, thanks.  I'd rather stick a fork in my eyeball.

Amen. I like my neighbors, but sharing communal space with them? Like Milee, I'd stick a fork in my eyeball, and maybe an additional one in my ear, rather than share space with them. And it sounds like Milee and I have some megamansion neighbors in common. There's a few being built one street over from me. Aside from the dirt, noise, truck and smell from the much used (and rarely cleaned) porta potties on the site, I just don't get the need for four or five thousand square feet. I mean a four or six- car garage I understand perfectly. But the rest of the space?

[steph08]

I don't want neighbors. I can see four houses from my house, and the closest one is 150 yards away. They are a little too close. We've only ever talked to one of the neighbors, and we've lived here for 1.5 years. We live on an acre with farmland and woods surrounding us.

At our old house, we had a neighbor 100 yards away and then nothing for one mile in one direction and a quarter of a mile in the other direction. It was perfect, especially when the neighbor had to move into a nursing home so there was no one but us!

I could maybe do some sort of community if we all had 1-2 acre lots, and I could pick the people.

[cktc]

This kind of arrangement sounds like it would be good for transplants, single parents, elderly people, pretty much anyone without a lot of friends, family or money who could use an extra hand from time to time.

Not for me. I tried a small courtyard apartment when I was divorced thinking it would force me out of my shell, it was okay, but I was still more comfortable and spent more time with my own friends and family.

[lexxy703]

Interesting concept.  I would have loved that arrangement when I was younger.  But not now.  I barely say hello to my neighbors.

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2015 7:41:05 GMT -5 yogiii said:

I'd rather live out a Golden Girls scenario, fyi I'm Sophia.

I'll be Blanche!

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I was wondering who would claim Blanche. 

[bobosensei]

Can I be Dorothy?

[yogiii]

Why doesn't anyone want to be Rose?

[happyhoix]

Humans being what they are, I can't see this working out well.

One person will make a four course vegan meal. Someone else will buy some pepperoni pizzas. Someone else will make steaks and will get pissed when the vegans refuse to eat the expensive steaks. The gluten free people will want everyone else to become gluten free, and the person with the nut allergies wants to banish all nuts.  

One person considers cleaning up the kitchen throwing the plates in the dishwasher. The next person in line is outraged she gets stuck sweeping and mopping the kitchen floor all the time because no one else ever does it.

Someone's 'free range' kid gets into the fridge and smashes a carton of someone else's very expensive free range, hormone free chicken eggs and the egg owner swats the kid on the butt, outraging the kid's parents who don't believe in spanking. The police are called.

I would like to think we would all be civil enough to get along in this kind of situation, but I'm realistic.

[mojothehelpermonkey]

I lived in a co-op house the summer after my first year of college. It was a huge house with about 20 different people of all ages renting rooms. There were weekly meetings, and a communal meal was served every night with everyone taking turns cooking. A chore wheel was used to determine who would clean what. It was a really interesting experience and cheaper than renting an apartment. However, at my age, I think I would pay a premium for more distance from my neighbors.

[Deleted]

Oh.hell.no.   LOL

I can see my neighbor's horse (animal!) and that's too close for me.

 

[teen persuasion]

Aug 7, 2015 0:05:41 GMT -5 msventoux said:

The public spaces of the community are emphasized more than the private spaces.  You do have to commit to so many hours/projects per month and rotate through all of the various tasks.  All of the maintenance on all of the units and common areas are done by the residents.  The intention is that you don't hire anything out unless it's catastrophic or very specialized.  They'll have a workshop with tools and the residents are all supposed to help each other with maintenance and repairs on the private and public spaces.

You don't have a private garage.  There's a communal garage away from the housing units and you have to walk a meandering path through a courtyard to get to your house so you're forced to interact with the other residents. If you have visitors they're expected to stay in the common house guest rooms so they can interact with everyone in the community as well.  Everyone will know your business. 

This acquaintance is a bit of a princess so it was fun to point out that if everyone is expected to cycle through all of the maintenance tasks that at some point she will have to shovel snow at -15 degrees, mow the lawn and clean some toilets...all of which she hires out now. 

So random unskilled residents are going to make repairs to public AND private buildings?

The idea of crowdsourcing needed labor is interesting, but not everyone will be able to rotate thru all the tasks equally successfully.  Then you get into a "fairness" issue - can I swap duties with another resident?  Are all duties equivalent in scale?  What if I am not available at the time a duty is needed?  What if I can't physically perform duties?  How are duties allocated - per household, or per capita?  At some point someone will attempt paying another resident (or outsider) to perform their duties - precisely what they are trying to avoid.

That communal garage sounds ridiculous in an area that gets snow.  Distance to walk to your car is a drawback, as is exposure to extreme weather.  I immediately thought of our camping site this weekend, substituting distance to bathroom facilities.  And now someone has to shovel/plow the walks before any residents need to leave for work/school.

[Deleted]

I've been thinking of this and the closest I can come to a real-life example would be religious communities such as convents and monasteries. You'd think those would work- shared values, generally people with good intentions, a selection process for applicants- and those don't always work, either.  I can't imagine it working for a group where the only thing in common is the ability to pay for the place.

[TheOtherMe]

The commune I lived in was definitely a hippie type of commune.  There were 7 of us.  We did have weekly meetings.  With 7 people, each person had one day of the week to cook.  Cleaning chores were rotated, so you didn't do the same thing every week.  We were a vegetarian household.  Aside from that, when it was your turn to cook, you chose what you were going to cook.  If the others didn't like it, so be it.  You learn not to fix things nobody else will eat, but you can't please everybody when it comes to diet.

We had a big, rambling house very close to the football stadium of a large university.  We rented our yard and driveway to football season ticket holders and that paid much of our rent.  We also would go in to the stadium after the games and collect aluminum cans. 

At our weekly meetings, we would be lectured about world hunger by one of the group.  He was one of the reasons I left.