mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 5, 2015 22:00:27 GMT -5
These folks are all wet! They don't sound like they've got the foggiest idea what they're doing. If they do, they're patently dishonest from the sounds of it. Your wife may well find herself working for minimum wage by the time it all comes together. She needs to really think this through and bring up her concerns with the expectation of solid answers before she proceeds further. I've got a feeling they're looking for suckers!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 22:01:04 GMT -5
And again, most likely for only therapy hours, which with travel can be 1/2 to 1/3 of actual time spent. And most likely not able to bill anything for no shows. She needs to get clarification on that, and an hourly/ per task rate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 2:38:19 GMT -5
Did your wife receive an offer letter or contract agreement yet? That should spell out exactly the employment relationship and what work performance is required for the 'contractor' to receive their pay.
Has your wife worked in the US before? Is it possible she is misunderstanding some of the terminology they are using or that you are using different words to describe it?
I'm baffled how an employer can propose what you have outlined.
I don't know what state you are in, but if it is a right to work state the employee does not have to provide notice. However if your wife signs an employment/contractor agreement that says she must provide that notice, then she is bound to it.
Please ask your wife NOT to sign anything related to the contract/employment without having an attorney review it. If the company demands she signs on the spot without legal review, you can be sure there is a problem.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Aug 6, 2015 5:53:03 GMT -5
The whole concept is WAAAY shady and doe NOT pass the IRS or DOL rules for independent contractors. Late DH had a couple such offers as a salesperson (frequently are ICs) and he (we) turned them down as costing us WAAAAY too much.
ICs NEVER get benefits - NO medical, No insurance of any type, NO retirement, NO holiday or vacation pay ................ ICs MUST pay ALL their own expenses: both sides of soc & medicare taxes, liability insurance, ALL auto expenses, auto insurance.................
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 6, 2015 7:21:29 GMT -5
joemilitary, I have somewhat good news. I asked DH about this this morning, and he says the State of Wisconsin is doing this also.
He said he had a client that was hired to be an independent contractor for a Police Department to do homevisits for Domestic Violence victims. He said he thinks it is a newer/pilot program that the state went to to cut out nonperforming agencies. My husband still has strong contacts in the Community Based Organization (CBO network) which is why I asked him about it. He said it is a Pilot Program and your wife could end up in a good position in the future to expand her business.
He said your wife needs to go to a larger/older independent agency that also writes commercial lines. She needs to buy a policy that covers General Liability Malpractice Insurance/and the Auto coverage we mentioned.
As you indicated given you have been in Europe and she does not have US work experience, I think it is worth a shot for her. Also if she is contracting direct with a county or state agency, give them a longer time frame to get payment going.
The fact that your wife has a MS in social work is what makes this legit for her to be an independent contractor.
Good Luck to your wife.
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musicjenny
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Post by musicjenny on Aug 6, 2015 10:00:42 GMT -5
It does sound shady. The ex was a TSS and then a Mobile Therapist and he always got paid as an employee. I think he made around 15 an hour 7 or 8 years ago but like someone said you can only bill for time actually spent with the client. Maybe things have changed?
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 6, 2015 10:30:26 GMT -5
Did your wife receive an offer letter or contract agreement yet? That should spell out exactly the employment relationship and what work performance is required for the 'contractor' to receive their pay. Has your wife worked in the US before? Is it possible she is misunderstanding some of the terminology they are using or that you are using different words to describe it? I'm baffled how an employer can propose what you have outlined. I don't know what state you are in, but if it is a right to work state the employee does not have to provide notice. However if your wife signs an employment/contractor agreement that says she must provide that notice, then she is bound to it. Please ask your wife NOT to sign anything related to the contract/employment without having an attorney review it. If the company demands she signs on the spot without legal review, you can be sure there is a problem. My wife has worked in the U.S. before. We've been married 20 years. She worked in Texas and NY as a social worker before. She hasn't received anything yet as far as a contract or offer. I'll try to write more when I have time. Thanks all.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Aug 6, 2015 10:36:57 GMT -5
If she is an independent contractor- she would not have to give notice as she is her own supervisor. It would be nice to offer the client time to find a replacement- but it's not necessary. just another example of why they are doing something shady.
Run- run like the wind.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 6, 2015 10:51:25 GMT -5
Maybe your wife could check with the university that granted her degree and see if this is a legit model for employment of social workers?
Marvholly - DH sells insurance - if he had run like the wind when the IC model was proposed to him, he would have lost out on a very lucrative career. I sometimes wish he was an employee, but he is definitely compensated enough for us to pay for benefits and accounting services (and office help) but the office help is the thing that he has the most difficulty getting. If his agency had stayed small it would not be a problem - but he has a medium sized agency and he needs bilingual Spanish speaking agents - and he just can't find them-anyone who is really qualified will be recruited away to start their own agency - so DH would just be providing training.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 11:08:09 GMT -5
I liked working as an independent contractor. Mostly because I had a great amount of flexibility in the jobs I took and the hours I set. I had little overhead and no travel. And it was a very low liability occupation. I didn't even have insurance. Independent contracting in an of itself is not horrible so long as you know what you are getting in to. THIS situation does not sound ideal to say the least.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 6, 2015 11:57:07 GMT -5
So latest is my wife is told she is an "employee"
The program manager is in and out of meetings but passed this word through the receptionist to my wife.
The receptionist said yesterday at the training they told the group stuff that pertains to independent contractors as most of the audience are independent contractors.
So my wife was assured she is not an independent contractor. We will still be cautious.
Wife also asked about training reimbursement for yesterday. Receptionist was going to check and get back with my wife.
Also my wife said when she worked in NY she drove clients in our car. I wasn't aware of this when we were in NY. I told her to mention to employer that we need different car insurance.
Will write more later. Busy at work. Thanks all.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 6, 2015 12:03:19 GMT -5
Yikes, I would never drive clients in my car and if this mental health services, I'd be very leery of going into their homes. When I was a GAL one of the volunteers for the younger kids was accosted by someone in the home she was checking out and her car was damaged because these people usually don't live in the greatest of areas.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 6, 2015 13:11:13 GMT -5
I told her to mention to employer that we need different car insurance. If she's an employee, she may not need different car insurance. Her employer's insurance policy may cover her car and the clients while she is doing work related transportation. But she should get some documentation of that from her employer on that before she assumes it. Don't take someone's word on it - get a letter from the employer and/or the insurance carrier or policy.
Also, if she's an employee, she probably doesn't need an individual policy for professional liability since her actions would be covered under her employer's policy.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Aug 6, 2015 13:35:59 GMT -5
Yes, on mileage reimbursement. Get it in writing that she is an employee.
I would not be having mental health client's in my personal car.
When I worked for the federal government, my car insurance was higher because the car was used for business purposes.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 6, 2015 14:27:04 GMT -5
If they have your license plate number, they can get your home address.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 15:10:43 GMT -5
In your wife's case- likely to move in a year or so, no recent experience in her field- it may not be a bad gamble to take the job and see how it works out, as long as you can resolve the liability and insurance issues.
Those of you who know social work better than I do- is there a protocol for protecting social workers from potentially dangerous clients during home visits? One was killed in our area a few years ago, by the client she was visiting at his home.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2015 15:24:41 GMT -5
I think it sounds shady. You'd think employers would want prospective employees to know upfront they will be contractors that way you for sure get people who are interested and willing to commit.
This way it seems like they are counting on these people deciding any job is better than no job and sucking it up. I imagine they'll see a high rate of turnover once people figure out what being a contractor actually means.
Does she absolutely need the income? If she doesn't it might be worth a gamble for 3-6 months and then reevaulate the position. If she needs it then personaly I'd hold out for a company that is straightforward with it's employees from the get go. Who knows what other little "surprises" they may have in store and try to claim it's b/c they are experiencing growing pains.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 17:36:16 GMT -5
Oh wowie! Being me, my first thought was liability insurance coverage for both car trips and home visits. What if one of the clients alleges your wife has done something wrong - stolen from them, touched inappropriately, whatever. I have a friend who deals with home visits to elderly with moderate dementia and said they are often accused when the client forgets that she hasn't had a particular necklace or vase or whatever for 20 years and says someone stole it. Since the social worker is often the only one in the home because these folks are socially isolate, well you get the picture.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 18:54:28 GMT -5
Even the little bitty non-profit I volunteer with pays mileage bi-weekly along with paychecks upon submission of a completed mileage log with their timesheets. There can be a difference in tax treatment of monthly vehicle allowance vs. mileage reimbursement but you might want to post that question over on the tax board.
On the client transportation side, many insurance companies are picky on claims if you have not declared, and paid the premium for, business use of the vehicle.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Aug 6, 2015 21:27:12 GMT -5
On the client transportation side, many insurance companies are picky on claims if you have not declared, and paid the premium for, business use of the vehicle. A memo went through our agency when a co-worker was in an accident while on work related business and had not told the insurance company. I had no idea until then that I needed to do this. It was done from then on.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Aug 7, 2015 2:00:00 GMT -5
My sister did something similar. I don't know all the details, but she was working for a company that contracted for the state of GA to make diagnosis on patients that claimed to be in crisis. She would do an evaluation and recommend treatment. So it was usually at a jail, hospital, but sometimes also in home. Her pay was decent, but only because she got a pay bump for being on call during the night and a premium for after hours work. She deducted her mileage and took a deduction for a home office. She never had to transport patients, but that was because of the type of work they did. She was never sent anywhere alone- always with another person from the company, but one time she was in a dangerous situation. They were sent to evaluate a man at his home, and he got some sort of thrill scaring people. He'd set up a pulpit and was giving a sermon and made my sister and her coworker think he had a weapon. They had to sneak and call the police. The guy didn't actually have a weapon, but it was a reminder of how dangerous the job can be. Also my mom and her husband didn't like her driving around at all hours of the night.
The entire time my sister worked for this place they dangled "the next available full time position" over her head. Nothing ever opened up. So she was working more like an on call person covering day shifts as they were open due to people calling out and taking a lot of night shifts for the extra pay. She wasn't always sent out on calls when she was on call, but she got paid some for those hours too. Fortunately she didn't health insurance otherwise she probably couldn't have afforded to keep the job.
FWIW I wouldn't work for a place that did what that company did to your wife. I am certain it was deliberate to not fully explain it was for a contractor position. Then to get her started, but find out she wouldn't be paid. That is a huge red flag for how they treat their employees, and probably why they don't really seem to interview anyone. They will take whoever needs the job badly enough or is not educated enough to know how much money it actually costs to be a contractor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2015 1:04:33 GMT -5
If she is an employee, why is she at training without an offer letter in hand? Basically they have started her employment without hiring her, checking W-9, or putting her on payroll?
It still is not making sense to me.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Aug 8, 2015 19:19:45 GMT -5
Any more information on the situation?
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 9, 2015 14:44:46 GMT -5
If she is an employee, why is she at training without an offer letter in hand? Basically they have started her employment without hiring her, checking W-9, or putting her on payroll? It still is not making sense to me.
She went to training based on the verbal offer of $42,000 (assuming it was a "regular" job).
The training is only given every other week or something. So if she missed that training, it could delay her actually starting work (have to wait 'till next training). So figuring to show enthusiasm for the job and that she is a motivated and flexible employee, and since the training was short fuse and management is busy setting up a new office, she decided to go to the training (took 6 hours out of her day) and ask questions later.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 9, 2015 14:47:06 GMT -5
Any more information on the situation?
So my wife never heard back, and figured not to be a bug a boo with too many calls.
So Monday afternoon she plans to stop by the office (15 minutes away) to see if she has better luck getting info in person (politely).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 18:02:24 GMT -5
I am a little concerned (okay, more than a little) that the info you do get seems to be communicated through the receptionist. With great respect to someone in a frontline position that often deserves more compensation than they get, I would NOT base my employment package on something a third party relayed to me other than a corporate officer or HR person. If things go south, it will be all too easy for the responsible party to deny everything b/c the receptionist "didn't understand what I said" or "the receptionist mis-spoke". The horse's mouth has a whole lot going for it in this scenario.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 9, 2015 18:19:04 GMT -5
I agree. Wife will get clarification before moving fwd. That's why she is going to "pop in" Monday (tomorrow) afternoon. Figure it will give the program manager time to get settled (program manager drives every day 1.5 hours from corporate office HQs to this new location). Wife was expecting a call back on Thursday or Friday which never happened.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 10, 2015 20:26:20 GMT -5
OK So my wife went by today and waited to talk to the program manager.
My wife would be an independent contractor (1099) for 6 months and then have the option to continue as a 1099 or become a W2.
Both positions (as the 1099 and W2 worker) would each pay $20 per hour.....
According to the program manager, some workers prefer being a 1099 worker so they can accept / work on other jobs.
So from the little I understand it sounds a bit weird.
She hasn't gotten an official offer yet, waiting for background check.
So I understand if she does the 1099 route she will pay double the SS and FICA, have to track expenses, and have to check on insurance for transporting clients and going into the homes...also the training she attended will not be paid for
As far as money wise for the 1099 route, what else should be considered as possible expenses?
should there be something in writing as far as being converted into a W2 worker 6 months later?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 20:28:51 GMT -5
In addition to expenses, did she clarify WHAT hours she would be able to bill for? How far would she be traveling? Is there reimbursement for that?
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 10, 2015 21:13:29 GMT -5
I would definitely be asking if she will need to carry her own liability insurance. But, I suspect after she pays both portions of the appropriate taxes, traveling time, and any sort of insurance she may need, she would be lucky to make minimum wage.
The fact they pay 1099 employees the same as W2 employees is a huge red flag on top of everything else that has been described. i work in a very different field, and we use some 1099 employees. They are paid almost double a W2 employee because of all the additional costs they incur and we only pay them for the time on a specific project.
And I would be shocked if this job turns into a W2 job later on down the road. It might, but why are they waiting six months to hire W2 employees?
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