AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 14, 2016 11:22:12 GMT -5
Paul I'm not ignoring your post, but I'm refusing to respond to it, because I think it's incredibly anti-Muslim and offensive.
The families of 103 people in Orlando don't give a shit.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 14, 2016 11:23:16 GMT -5
I got a text from a gay Democrat friend of mine- I won't paraphrase or edit, this is what it said:
I'm voting Trump because fuck this shit.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 14, 2016 11:49:28 GMT -5
I got a text from a gay Democrat friend of mine- I won't paraphrase or edit, this is what it said: I'm voting Trump because fuck this shit. I don't believe you. It's like your posting of the phony Phoenix tweets.
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 14, 2016 12:25:15 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 14, 2016 12:44:23 GMT -5
deminmaine -Yesterday, I read an article which stated muslim family members or muslim friends tipped off police in around 28-29% of the cases of possible terrorism by domestic terrorists/domestic Muslim terrorists wishing to do harm to the U.S. As I cannot refind that article, I did find something similar with Muslims in the U.S. tipping off police of potential future danger. Muslim Informants prevent domestic terror: the data That's all? Less than one third?
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Post by Opti on Jun 14, 2016 12:45:40 GMT -5
I don't know to what degree the latest shooter was motivated by religion, but Paul is correct on one count: sooner or later the left is going to acknowledge that Islam reviles homosexuality (and sexual perversion in general), and that Muslims treat that revulsion far more seriously than most Christians do. Waging a war on all of Islam strikes me as a feat of supreme idiocy, hence don't construe this as support for Mr. Trump's policies. Virgil, let's get into a space of why does it even matter?, for a moment. The laws in the US are against treating homosexuals differently than heterosexuals in regards to employment, etc. Why does it matter even a dime's worth whether the left or I for that matter acknowledge your preferred church and many Islamic ones are not fans of homosexuality? (This changes the law and reality of the US how?)
So the hell's what!?#$%@!!
I don't think in this case the shooter was motivated by religion. Now he may have been influenced by his beliefs growing up Muslim, but evidence points to this was a him thing. Not a religion thing. If anything I think he was influenced by Trump's rhetoric. Trump repeatedly talks against Mexicans and for the Wall. Against Muslims and for extremely restricted immigration. While he is not anti-gay, many of his supporters are, and it is part of the hate trinity IMO. The shooter being Muslim, appeared to me to go after the other parts of the hate trinity he might not have ties to. Except it appears he may have hung out at the club himself.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 14, 2016 13:03:13 GMT -5
deminmaine -Yesterday, I read an article which stated muslim family members or muslim friends tipped off police in around 28-29% of the cases of possible terrorism by domestic terrorists/domestic Muslim terrorists wishing to do harm to the U.S. As I cannot refind that article, I did find something similar with Muslims in the U.S. tipping off police of potential future danger. Muslim Informants prevent domestic terror: the data That's all? Less than one third? I was replying to the poster who said "Joe and Mika said he is poisoning the Muslim Islamic population and they will not come forward and report troubled members who might foment attacks here. I want to know how long we have to wait until that will happen. We have been waiting for a decade now." or reply #3262 (my reply numbers will be different than yours) seemed to say no Muslims over the past decade have come forward with tips to help the police. I was responding with instances of that not being true. Can someone show me where family members of non-Muslim killers have come forward to warn the police a criminal act was going to be committed? I would imagine the number per 100,000 non Muslim U.S. citizens doing so would probably be the same as for Muslim citizens. Few want to get their family and friends in trouble regardless of their religion.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 14, 2016 13:15:33 GMT -5
I got a text from a gay Democrat friend of mine- I won't paraphrase or edit, this is what it said: I'm voting Trump because fuck this shit. I don't believe you have a gay democrat friend.
eta: You've been pretty clear about your disdain for democrats, and that you think homosexuality is a sin. I'm not sure why this friend would want to hang out with you. I prefer to hang out with people who are nice to me.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 14, 2016 13:17:19 GMT -5
Most of us don't either.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 14, 2016 13:30:23 GMT -5
So far, we have been very successful in that 'live and let live' thing, for the most part. "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results." Like it or not, we're entering an era of ideological and political warfare unprecedented in human history. You don't have to believe me, but I do recommend you keep your eyes open. I don't know, the hundred years war was pretty damn crappy.
Then there was the whole Spanish Inquisition thing.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 14, 2016 13:45:15 GMT -5
Paul I'm not ignoring your post, but I'm refusing to respond to it, because I think it's incredibly anti-Muslim and offensive.
The families of 103 people in Orlando don't give a shit. Latest reports indicate the shooter may have frequented the bar, was friends with drag queens/gays and may have had a gay relationship (and was probably very conflicted about it, given his religion) so this may have been a combination hate crime/terrorist attack, especially since no links can be found to organized terrorism, and because the attacker swore allegiance to two different Islamic leaders who actually hate each other (which probably indicates the attacker didn't know that much about ISIS).
Congratulations on jumping onto the Trump 'lets turn our hate on Muslims and kick them all out of the country before they stab us in our beds' bandwagon with so much enthusiasm, without waiting for actual facts that might mess up your singlemindedness.
Who needs facts when demagoguery is so much more fun.
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Post by Opti on Jun 14, 2016 13:45:29 GMT -5
Paul I'm not ignoring your post, but I'm refusing to respond to it, because I think it's incredibly anti-Muslim and offensive.
The families of 103 people in Orlando don't give a shit. I think you have no ER%^$#W@! clue what those families think. My guess is most of them are worried about anti-gay people. Not Muslims per se.
www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/orlando-shooting-victims-updates.html?_r=0
Perhaps you can read what the people affected think instead of assuming they fit your warped agenda.
ORLANDO, Fla. — Louis Omar Ocasio-Capo was 20, worked at a Starbucks in a Target store, and lived to dance. Stanley Almodovar III, a 23-year-old pharmacy technician, had posted a Snapchat video of himself singing and laughing on his way to the Pulse nightclub on Saturday. Eric Ivan Ortiz-Rivera, 36, nicknamed Shaki, had been married to his husband for about a year, worked at a Party City and a Sunglasses Hut, and was entranced by interior design.
The dead were mostly young, mostly Latino and mostly gay — though some were none of those and a fair number were straight men and women enjoying an evening of Latin music. And on Monday, when their names were read aloud in the auditorium of a red-brick senior center, the worst fears of their families came true as the roster of the victims of the Orlando attack became horribly real.
Cesar Flores, who moved to the United States from Guatemala in 1984 to chase what he called the American dream, learned around 1 a.m. Monday that his only daughter, Mercedez Marisol Flores, 26, had died in the club along with a girlfriend, Amanda Alvear, 25.
“She was my best, my only girl,” Mr. Flores, who has two sons, said quietly, with evident grief, outside the Beardall Senior Center, where he was to receive help with arrangements to receive his daughter’s body for burial. “She was a happy girl all the time, but now she’s gone.”
The attacker, Mr. Flores said, should be forgiven. “I cannot hang on to that hate,” he said. “It’s not weapons that kill — it’s the heart. That kind of hate is in the blood.”
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2016 14:25:43 GMT -5
I don't know to what degree the latest shooter was motivated by religion, but Paul is correct on one count: sooner or later the left is going to acknowledge that Islam reviles homosexuality (and sexual perversion in general), and that Muslims treat that revulsion far more seriously than most Christians do. Waging a war on all of Islam strikes me as a feat of supreme idiocy, hence don't construe this as support for Mr. Trump's policies. Virgil, let's get into a space of why does it even matter?, for a moment. The laws in the US are against treating homosexuals differently than heterosexuals in regards to employment, etc. Why does it matter even a dime's worth whether the left or I for that matter acknowledge your preferred church and many Islamic ones are not fans of homosexuality? (This changes the law and reality of the US how?)
So the hell's what!?#$%@!!
I don't think in this case the shooter was motivated by religion. Now he may have been influenced by his beliefs growing up Muslim, but evidence points to this was a him thing. Not a religion thing. If anything I think he was influenced by Trump's rhetoric. Trump repeatedly talks against Mexicans and for the Wall. Against Muslims and for extremely restricted immigration. While he is not anti-gay, many of his supporters are, and it is part of the hate trinity IMO. The shooter being Muslim, appeared to me to go after the other parts of the hate trinity he might not have ties to. Except it appears he may have hung out at the club himself. I don't know whether the shooter was motivated by religion. I can certainly believe the answer is 'no', given how his pledge to ISIS seems to be something extemporaneously tacked on to the attack. While I admire your equanimity, you're not looking beyond the here and now. The political left doesn't exist in a vacuum. Every time one of these attacks hits, it grows a little bit angrier, a little bit more panicked, a little bit less complacent. The cries to do something grow a little bit more shrill. When gun controls are imposed and inevitably fail, those cries will become louder and more panicked still. Policies will be put in place to clamp down on the wrong kinds of speech, the wrong kids of meetings, the wrong kinds of people, and public resistance will only grow. The equanimous left will vanish. People will either support government measures to "end hatred" or oppose them. It will be "the law", and the law will directly controvert Islamic law in ways that can't be worked around. The left won't hate Muslims for being Islamic, they'll hate Muslims, imams, leaders, communities, for refusing to obey the law. There's effectively no difference, of course, but progressives especially live and die by these kinds of rationalizations. Again, all of this will play out in Europe first. Europe is finally hitting a wall with their multicultural experiment. The great and enlightened continent, now a train wreck unfolding in slow motion as their economies struggle for life, their native-born population dies off exponentially, and they're overrun by unassimilated immigrants. Their union is shifting and dissolving. The dream is over. What are we going to see in its place? A transformed Europe. A new core of European nations ruled by one government and one religion, both abhorring Islam and fundamentalist religion in general. Strong European nationalism, and a desire to assert it worldwide. The same attitudes towards Islam will eventually take firm root in America and the British Commonwealth. Protracted economic collapse will lead to joblessness, civil unrest, millions of people filled with rage, with no purpose in their lives and no hope of a 20th Century lifestyle. Attacks like this shooting in Orlando will become commonplace. How many more do you think it will take before even the most live-and-let-live holdout among us abandons his principles? We're seeing it happen right now. Every time that tree shakes, a little bit more fruit falls out. I'm not saying you should endorse Mr. Trump, because I have no respect for the man or the little I know of his "plan". I'm saying that we're drawing to the close of the era of complacency and tolerance. I don't relish it. But it's going to happen.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 14, 2016 15:23:47 GMT -5
Virgil are you aware there are 3 million Muslims in the US right now?
You are also aware, I assume, that lots of Christians sects preach against homosexuality from the pulpit and in the street, that they want to retain the ability to discriminate against gays, and that the landscape (especially here in the South) is dotted with Christian schools, and Christian kids getting homeschooled, all of them learning that homosexuality is a perversion? Do you see blood in the streets because of this? Muslims and Christians can think and believe what they want, and preach what they want, and teach their kids what they want - it's all part of that pesky 'freedom of religion' thing. So far, we have been very successful in that 'live and let live' thing, for the most part.
I know you tend to awefulize everything and that you envision a bleak future for about 100 different reasons, but if America does one thing well, better than any other nation on Earth, it's that we are the great melting pot. Unlike the European countries who tend to isolate different ethnic and religious people into different neighborhoods, never really integrating them into the main society, in America, if you work hard you can be as successful as someone whose parents came here on the Mayflower - look at Trump, just two generations away from being an immigrant himself. You can buy a house in any neighborhood, send your kid to public school with everyone else, and as long as you don't hurt anyone else, you're free to practice whatever religion you want to practice. That has made us successful so far, and if we can ignore all the religious bigotry from all the Trumps out there, we will be successful in the future.
closer to 6M, i believe. Great. So, only 15% are "radicalized" that makes... 900,000 potential threats. At the time Great Britain was dealing with the worst of the leftist IRA terror, there were roughly 100 active IRA "soldiers"... TRUMP makes more sense every day.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 14, 2016 15:40:31 GMT -5
... Great. So, only 15% are "radicalized" that makes... 900,000 potential threats. At the time Great Britain was dealing with the worst of the leftist IRA terror, there were roughly 100 active IRA "soldiers"... TRUMP makes more sense every day. Or more the reason not to alienate the other 5,100,000.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 14, 2016 15:47:22 GMT -5
Virgil, let's get into a space of why does it even matter?, for a moment. The laws in the US are against treating homosexuals differently than heterosexuals in regards to employment, etc. Why does it matter even a dime's worth whether the left or I for that matter acknowledge your preferred church and many Islamic ones are not fans of homosexuality? (This changes the law and reality of the US how?)
So the hell's what!?#$%@!!
I don't think in this case the shooter was motivated by religion. Now he may have been influenced by his beliefs growing up Muslim, but evidence points to this was a him thing. Not a religion thing. If anything I think he was influenced by Trump's rhetoric. Trump repeatedly talks against Mexicans and for the Wall. Against Muslims and for extremely restricted immigration. While he is not anti-gay, many of his supporters are, and it is part of the hate trinity IMO. The shooter being Muslim, appeared to me to go after the other parts of the hate trinity he might not have ties to. Except it appears he may have hung out at the club himself. I don't know whether the shooter was motivated by religion. I can certainly believe the answer is 'no', given how his pledge to ISIS seems to be something extemporaneously tacked on to the attack. His father is a taliban-supporting former Afghan presidential candidate and a radical islamic extremist himself (I do not care what he had to say after the attack because islam permits followers to lie to infidels). As a high schooler, this guy cheered the islamic hijackers on 9/11 and made plane noises on the bus to taunt his fellow classmates. He worshiped at a tiny Ft Pierce mosque along side an American suicide bomber. He made two trips to Mecca, because he was Muslim; he was interviewed twice by the FBI, he was on a terrorist watch list, and he drove one co-worker to quit for threatening to kill people- his excuse was that his co-workers made fun of him for being Muslim. He was ejected from the police academy because he was suspected of trying to "infiltrate" the organization / police force.
While I admire your equanimity, you're not looking beyond the here and now. The political left doesn't exist in a vacuum. Every time one of these attacks hits, it grows a little bit angrier, a little bit more panicked, a little bit less complacent. The cries to do something grow a little bit more shrill. When gun controls are imposed and inevitably fail, those cries will become louder and more panicked still. Policies will be put in place to clamp down on the wrong kinds of speech, the wrong kids of meetings, the wrong kinds of people, and public resistance will only grow. The equanimous left will vanish. People will either support government measures to "end hatred" or oppose them. It will be "the law", and the law will directly controvert Islamic law in ways that can't be worked around. The left won't hate Muslims for being Islamic, they'll hate Muslims, imams, leaders, communities, for refusing to obey the law. There's effectively no difference, of course, but progressives especially live and die by these kinds of rationalizations. Again, all of this will play out in Europe first. Europe is finally hitting a wall with their multicultural experiment. The great and enlightened continent, now a train wreck unfolding in slow motion as their economies struggle for life, their native-born population dies off exponentially, and they're overrun by unassimilated immigrants. Their union is shifting and dissolving. The dream is over. What are we going to see in its place? A transformed Europe. A new core of European nations ruled by one government and one religion, both abhorring Islam and fundamentalist religion in general. Strong European nationalism, and a desire to assert it worldwide. The same attitudes towards Islam will eventually take firm root in America and the British Commonwealth. Protracted economic collapse will lead to joblessness, civil unrest, millions of people filled with rage, with no purpose in their lives and no hope of a 20th Century lifestyle. Attacks like this shooting in Orlando will become commonplace. How many more do you think it will take before even the most live-and-let-live holdout among us abandons his principles? We're seeing it happen right now. Every time that tree shakes, a little bit more fruit falls out. I'm not saying you should endorse Mr. Trump, because I have no respect for the man or the little I know of his "plan". I'm saying that we're drawing to the close of the era of complacency and tolerance. I don't relish it. But it's going to happen.
Ditto
I came to a decision yesterday: If my gay Democrat friend (and his partner, now, too) can vote for Trump. So can I. I just don't know if we can afford to take the chance with Hum...I mean, Hillary.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2016 15:55:03 GMT -5
If all that's true, Paul, it does seem as though this was a long-term undertaking for him.
In the other thread, people are saying there's evidence he visited the club and used dating apps. It seems likely, then, that he became obsessed with "gay culture", infiltrated the community, planned the attack, and ultimately executed it, giving credit to ISIS.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 14, 2016 15:55:56 GMT -5
Great. So, only 15% are "radicalized" that makes... 900,000 potential threats. At the time Great Britain was dealing with the worst of the leftist IRA terror, there were roughly 100 active IRA "soldiers"... TRUMP makes more sense every day. Where the hell did you get the 15% 'radicalized' number?
Here is the only thing approaching 'fact' that I could find - a PEW research document: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/ And they say this:
More generally, Muslims mostly say that suicide bombings and other forms of violence against civilians in the name of Islam are rarely or never justified, including 92% in Indonesia and 91% in Iraq. In the United States, a 2011 survey found that 86% of Muslims say that such tactics are rarely or never justified. An additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.
So - BEST CASE - if you take the American Muslims who believe suicide bombings are sometimes or often justified (which is still a far cry from someone willing to strap one of those bomb on and go blow something up) you're at 8%. Tops. But IMHO, the number who would be actually willing to DO the bombing is far, far smaller.
Let me guess. Breitbart or Rush, your two fountains of undeniable truthiness.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 14, 2016 15:58:34 GMT -5
If all that's true, Paul, it does seem as though this was a long-term undertaking for him. In the other thread, people are saying there's evidence he visited the club and used dating apps. It seems likely, then, that he became obsessed with "gay culture", infiltrated the community, planned the attack, and ultimately executed it, giving credit to ISIS. This seems to be what happened, based on what they found out so far.
And he said two different ISIS commanders were his inspiration, apparently not realizing those two guys hate each other, so that says something about the depth of his knowledge about ISIS.
About as thick as the wax on an apple.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 14, 2016 16:02:18 GMT -5
Virgil.
You're my little ray of sunshine on a cloudy day. Seriously.
You always know how to cheer me up.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 14, 2016 16:16:47 GMT -5
No, I actually got it from a Sunni Muslim, and she got it from major, reliable polling organizations:
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 15, 2016 6:59:03 GMT -5
You got it from a Sunni Muslim who is a libertarian and advocates a radical departure from current Islam, in that she wants to be an Immam and she has lead prayer services (something females aren't allowed to do). So she's gotten death threats from other Muslims.
Sorry, I don't think she's got an unbiased view of Islam, since some Muslims want to kill her.
See if you can find a link to an unbiased polling group or research group that conducted a scientific poll of American Muslims - I based my worst case number of 8% on Pew research. See if you can find something solid like that to support your "17% of American muslims are extremist terrorists" clap trap.
I'll wait.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 15, 2016 7:00:35 GMT -5
Meanwhile, poll out today says that 63% of American women will never vote for Trump, and Hillary is now leading him in double digits.
I'm sure this is just some elaborate feint that Trump has engineered right before he wows everyone at the convention and gallops to November to win in a landslide, though.
I don't doubt that, ever.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 15, 2016 11:49:11 GMT -5
If you don't believe in the Monster Vote, just wait. If you don't think that the events in Orlando will have political consequences- namely that it will greatly benefit Trump as millions of Americans, especially those on the left in the LGBTQ community who now realize that the Democrats have chosen radical islam over them, you're nuts. Log cabin Republicans is going to explode. So much for that bold statement. Why would a class of people, discriminated for hundreds of years and even still today, discriminate against another class of people just because of a very small minority. Why would a class of people who have been harassed, beaten and killed by non-Muslim Americans for hundreds of years discriminate against another class of people. Trump Casts Himself as Gay-Rights Champion After Orlando ShootingBut the Log Cabin Republicans—along with other major gay-rights groups—oppose Mr. Trump’s immigration plans. When Mr. Trump announced his proposal in December after the terrorist attacks in San Bernardino, Calif., the Log Cabin Republicans said he was “inciting the politics of fear.” The reaction from other gay-rights leaders and gay Republicans to Mr. Trump’s avowed support ranges from disdain to skepticism. “He has no shame,” said Jay Brown, spokesman for the Human Rights Campaign, which has endorsed Mrs. Clinton. Many gay people are also Muslims, Latinos and women, said Mr. Brown, adding, “We are the very people around whom he has built an entire campaign belittling and maligning at every turn.” Trump Casts Himself as Gay-Rights Champion After Orlando Shooting
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 15, 2016 11:49:22 GMT -5
Meanwhile, poll out today says that 63% of American women will never vote for Trump, and Hillary is now leading him in double digits.
I'm sure this is just some elaborate feint that Trump has engineered right before he wows everyone at the convention and gallops to November to win in a landslide, though.
I don't doubt that, ever. Hillary Clinton will not defeat Donald Trump. I don't care what the polls do. I've given you the numbers, and explained why polling that is making past election assumptions to extrapolate a conclusion are wrong. Reagan was down double digits at this point. In fact, Reagan was down 5% with 30 days to go. He beat Carter by 10% in a landslide. Now, you can believe there was a 10% swing in 30 days, but we both know the real answer is that Carter never was winning, and never had a chance. Hillary has less of a shot than Jimmy Carter.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 15, 2016 11:52:28 GMT -5
I got a text from a gay Democrat friend of mine- I won't paraphrase or edit, this is what it said: I'm voting Trump because fuck this shit. I don't believe you. It's like your posting of the phony Phoenix tweets. Gay Athiest Democrat One of the smartest people I know, too, btw. Been friends since about 2000.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 15, 2016 11:53:28 GMT -5
Meanwhile, poll out today says that 63% of American women will never vote for Trump, and Hillary is now leading him in double digits.
I'm sure this is just some elaborate feint that Trump has engineered right before he wows everyone at the convention and gallops to November to win in a landslide, though.
I don't doubt that, ever. If you don't doubt this supposed lead- you need to discuss this with President Dukakis.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 15, 2016 12:41:30 GMT -5
Trump a gay rights champion? That's rich, considering he said he would do away with SSM.
That jaundiced clown will NEVER be President.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 15, 2016 14:14:32 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 15, 2016 14:16:10 GMT -5
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