deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 12, 2011 15:37:10 GMT -5
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on Mar 12, 2011 15:45:09 GMT -5
just in case, covering my butt,,,,
|
|
Mad Dawg Wiccan
Administrator
Rest in Peace
Only Bites Whiners
Joined: Jan 12, 2011 20:40:24 GMT -5
Posts: 9,693
|
Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Mar 12, 2011 15:50:42 GMT -5
I came out near Gandhi..I'll take that..-3.50 on the econ/libetarian, -2.10 on Social /lib Just as I have been claiming, middle to the left. Looks like I'm closer to the middle than you are, I'm +0.75 econ and -2.10 social.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 16:10:15 GMT -5
(make everyone equal by taking away from the rich & middle class & giving it to the poor).
But this is not what our social system does, nor do i think it should, nor do i think the state should own the rights of production and distribution, although i think they should regulate them.
I think that our society benefits from maintaining a stable minimum subsistance level... not EQUALITY... Personally, i wouldn't want live like my friends who are on food stamps and WIC and Access (our medicaid)... etc... But i'm fine with providing a minmal level of subsistance... and anything you want above that you go an work for... again, most of the reason i'm good with minimal subsistance is because the majority of these programs effectively support 1) children, 2) populations that cannot do for themselves (elderly, abused, sick, mentally ill)... I do think that fraud should be fought, as long as it if reasonable to do so, and, as i've said, SSI in particular needs a re-write to limit abuse... but i do not think ensuring a minimal subsistance, to the least among us, is the same at all as ensuring everything equal treatment...
There is no way you look at our country honestly and suggest that we have equality...? ... regardless of our social programs...
|
|
Mad Dawg Wiccan
Administrator
Rest in Peace
Only Bites Whiners
Joined: Jan 12, 2011 20:40:24 GMT -5
Posts: 9,693
|
Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Mar 12, 2011 16:14:42 GMT -5
<<There is no way you look at our country honestly and suggest that we have equality...?>>
A poor black kid is raised by his single mother with help from her parents, and gets elected POTUS. How much more equality do you want?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 16:28:48 GMT -5
Equality of OPPORTUNITY should exist in america... that is what our social programs do... help to ensure that you have the basic childhood nutrition, health care, education necessary to be a good citizen and access the opportunities available in our country...
Equalify of income, equalify of 'stuff we can buy'... that type of equality is what i was addressing.... we do not have a 'take from the rich and give to the poor so all people can have the same buying power, all own the same number of dvd players, etc... which is communism... what our social programing does and should do, is what you pointed out... equalize OPPORTUNITY... as much as possible (although that is still not equal...) .... But that is not communism...
Thanks for helping me clarify my point.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,451
|
Post by billisonboard on Mar 12, 2011 16:39:07 GMT -5
<<There is no way you look at our country honestly and suggest that we have equality...?>> A poor black kid is raised by his single mother with help from her parents, and gets elected POTUS. How much more equality do you want? Equality isn't one exceptional person of color being elected to the Presidency. Equality would be a few average ability people of color elected to the Senate.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 17:35:37 GMT -5
Parents definitely conservative. I'm way more to the left of them on social issues. Fiscal issues I'm to the right as they are. I feel somewhat disenfranchised also but to me that is more reason to get involved not just sit it out.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 17:44:01 GMT -5
I think that our society benefits from maintaining a stable minimum subsistance level... not EQUALITY... Personally, i wouldn't want live like my friends who are on food stamps and WIC and Access (our medicaid)... etc...
I don't agree that there needs to be a minimum subsistance level provided by our government. I believe each person should do that themselves (of course this doesn't include those that really can't).
There is no way you look at our country honestly and suggest that we have equality...? ... regardless of our social programs
Yes I do believe that we are mostly all equal.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 17:45:26 GMT -5
Children can't do it for themselves tex... most programs are for their benefit...
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 13, 2011 19:45:30 GMT -5
If we don't provide a minimum for the least among us, then we will simply pay for it in other ways: higher crime rates, more abandoned children (especially babies), more domestic violence (which is often caused by financial stress), an increased number of homeless and beggars prowling the streets ... and all of this costs money to contain and control.
There are a myriad reasons why someone can end up jobless, and a myriad of other reasons why they can't find another one. It shouldn't simply be chalked up as laziness and, therefore, undeserving of that safety net.
As far as my family is concerned, the more correct way to say it is that my mother, at least, became more liberal because of me instead of vice versa.
I grew up in an extremely conservative family, and religious, too. I became the exact opposite - a liberal atheist. I think my mother heard me ramble on about politics enough that she began to adopt my way of thinking. My father and I still get into knock 'em down, drag 'em out political debates. Unfortunately, his religion has gotten the best of him since he is an intelligent man. But he actually thought that "devil" picture in the flames of 9/11 was really the devil. I could only stare in stunned silence when he admitted that.
As for the test - Ghandi.
|
|
formerexpat
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 4,079
|
Post by formerexpat on Mar 13, 2011 19:55:43 GMT -5
This has not been my experience. Please provide support for the assertion because the real answer is that it's about power and control.
[/size]
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 20:01:32 GMT -5
It's definitely not the only factor, expat, but it can contribute. If you think about it, its still about power and control, its just that the inability to control the financial situation heightens the need/desire for the perpetrator to inflict control and assert his power where he can. www.ricadv.org/es/about-us/blog/173-does-economic-stress-contribute-to-domestic-violence-.htmlIf you do a quick search, there are quite a few linking a recent rise in domestic violence during the current economic times...
|
|
henryclay
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 5, 2011 19:03:37 GMT -5
Posts: 3,685
|
Post by henryclay on Mar 13, 2011 20:10:23 GMT -5
"........... and all of this costs money to contain and control......"
I was just skimming, and saw these words. . . . "contain and control" . . . The context is about people. People are individuals just like the rest of us. So "contain and control" as it applies to people may be somewhat harsh, and in certain areas the words are interpreted as the mantra of the Democratic Party. So I wonder if they were really intended to mean what they can be so readily interpreted to mean. I wonder if some other words could not be found that would convey a more socially/politically neutral meaning.
R
|
|
|
Post by marjar on Mar 13, 2011 20:11:07 GMT -5
|
|
formerexpat
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 4,079
|
Post by formerexpat on Mar 13, 2011 20:12:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, oped. That's odd based on what I've personally seen. Most people that are poor long term have come to accept it and are used to tough financial situations. I can understand significant changes in ones financial situation but maybe the cases I've seen were all against the norm.
More often, I've seen control in form of not allowing the woman to work, to cut off her options. I've also seen abuse begin and increase as the men have made more [including adultery].
ETA - Even after seeing your link, I'm not sure that correlation implies causation though.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 13, 2011 20:17:42 GMT -5
Holy over-analyzing, Batman!
|
|
vonnie6200
Senior Member
Adopt a Shelter Pet
Joined: Jan 8, 2011 14:07:17 GMT -5
Posts: 2,199
|
Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 13, 2011 20:18:49 GMT -5
If we don't provide a minimum for the least among us, then we will simply pay for it in other ways: higher crime rates, more abandoned children (especially babies), more domestic violence (which is often caused by financial stress), an increased number of homeless and beggars prowling the streets ... and all of this costs money to contain and control. Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=4625&page=2#ixzz1GX36QmdSOver my life time we do more and more for the poor and the children - and the results get worse and worse. We now have food stamps, WIC, free breakfasts and free lunches at schools, and food banks and soup kitchens and still there is hunger in America. This does not make sense to me - what else should this country be doing? We still have Planned Parenthood - with free or s sliding scale for birth control and abortions - so why are there unwanted children? And for abandoned babies - there is a waiting line of couples looking to adopt infants. It seems to me that the more War on Poverty the government engages in, the more poverty it creates. And no, I am not heartless - I donate to charity, to food banks, my time etc. What else should we as a country be doing?
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 13, 2011 20:22:16 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 20:24:36 GMT -5
Yes, i would be cautious too with overgeneralizing. However, i also know that in cases where men have their identity stripped as far as breadwinner, and where the tension of not being able to control the financial situations, can contribute. Also, if it interfered with the ability to isolate (ie. a second income was needed... )
I don't think all situations manifest in the same way. Its systemic, and not just in one demographic. I would say power and control are paramount... but that financial stress can compound those factors...
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 13, 2011 20:26:56 GMT -5
I think a major problem is the fact that the government tries to keep available programs a secret. The programs are there, but you really have to dig around and do your research to find out what they are and whether you qualify. Some people may not qualify due to a technicality or they don't have the proper documentation to prove their hardship.
This is more true with state and local programs than federal programs, and I think those governments are worried about a massive influx of people if the programs were common knowledge. Without research and asking the right questions to the right people, many programs go unused.
In the southern states, especially, it's very hard to qualify. For instance, in NC, you won't qualify for medicaid no matter how poor or sick you are unless you have a dependent. So a lot of people end up unable to work because of a sickness, and have no government option to be treated.
|
|
|
Post by marjar on Mar 13, 2011 20:27:38 GMT -5
Financial difficulty is a stress factor and can act as a catalyst. The more out of control one feels, the more one may look for control elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by marjar on Mar 13, 2011 20:30:09 GMT -5
Shirina - I didn't see your post. I was typing mine as you were posting yours. Sorry for the duplication of thoughts.
|
|
Shirina
Well-Known Member
Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 23:15:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,200
|
Post by Shirina on Mar 13, 2011 20:31:43 GMT -5
Haha, no problem, marjar.
|
|
vonnie6200
Senior Member
Adopt a Shelter Pet
Joined: Jan 8, 2011 14:07:17 GMT -5
Posts: 2,199
|
Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 13, 2011 20:40:15 GMT -5
So if I don't pony up more tax money to pay for an out of work/under employed guy - he might be abusing his wife and kids?
|
|
henryclay
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 5, 2011 19:03:37 GMT -5
Posts: 3,685
|
Post by henryclay on Mar 13, 2011 20:41:47 GMT -5
vonnie, you mentioned food stamps. I checked the debt clock and is says we have 44,325,290 people on food stamps out of a population of 310,982,257. My calculator tells me that 14.25+ percent of the American people, (one in 7), are on food stamps. Something is badly wrong wioth that picture.
signed: Batman
|
|
|
Post by marjar on Mar 13, 2011 20:44:00 GMT -5
Henry, do you know what the percentage was before the recession?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 25, 2024 0:56:02 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 20:45:50 GMT -5
No vonnie... but if you start lopping off social programs, you will have to pony up more for personal security detail... because robbery and violent crime will increase.
|
|
vonnie6200
Senior Member
Adopt a Shelter Pet
Joined: Jan 8, 2011 14:07:17 GMT -5
Posts: 2,199
|
Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 13, 2011 20:46:56 GMT -5
Henry
Something is very wrong - it could be the unemployment and underemployment in the country
|
|
vonnie6200
Senior Member
Adopt a Shelter Pet
Joined: Jan 8, 2011 14:07:17 GMT -5
Posts: 2,199
|
Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 13, 2011 20:50:11 GMT -5
No vonnie... but if you start lopping off social programs, you will have to pony up more for personal security detail... because robbery and violent crime will increase. I think it needs to be reassessed and looked at from numerous different angles - because every time we create a social program - we seem to end up with people dependent on it - people that would have made different choices if the program were not available. I don't have a great answer but social programs seem to hurt, rather than help in the long run.
|
|