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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 14:20:39 GMT -5
I was answering very generally about the subject matter you posted. Did you mean to ask if we thought she was sending you a message?
No, I was thinking of it as a general statement. That whole idea of not being allowed to judge things the kids do. I want GW to talk to me about all things as well, but not at the expense of not being able to express disapproval when I don't approve of the behaviour. That doesn't mean I don't love her, it means I don't agree with that choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 14:32:08 GMT -5
I think the point it made consistently is 'don't punish'.
I do judge some times. Don't we all? I also explain that in life we are all able to do and say what we like, but that doesn't mean we escape the consequence of what we say and do. If they do something that I think will make people think less of them, we talk about that. Like we talk about all of the consequences for choices we make in what we say and do.
But in life, I don't have to approve of another adult's behavior. And quite frankly I'm not trying to raise kids that will do things just for the approval of others. If they choose to do things that I don't approve of, well then that doesn't mean that I don't love them or don't want to support their rise to independent, functional adults. It means they have to deal with the consequence of their choices and I'm here to assist them as they navigate understanding exactly what that means.
I don't punish by grounding, etc. because I just don't see that it has been effective where I have observed it. If there is a natural consequence for actions, so be it, and we discuss those, and options thoroughly. But punish, no.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 14:34:27 GMT -5
If you ground her, it isn't just that you don't agree with her choice. Its that you are saying she MUST make your choice. And not because it is a reasonable and rational choice for her to make, but because you said so... That's the kind of thing I try to avoid.
I do think, as someone else said that relationships where you don't 'grow into' the parenting thing with your child are going to be more difficult to navigate. I still think natural consequences are best if an when at all possible.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 25, 2015 14:55:33 GMT -5
My dad only had two rules in our house when we were teenagers. No lying and no driving drunk. Those are the only two things that we got in trouble for with him. However, he also thought it was totally normal for us to drink as teenagers and he didn't give us a curfew. it probably helped that none of us kids did drugs and we were generally good kids. I suspect there would have been more rules if our grades were crappy, we were disrespectful, or we were consistently in trouble. But, he made it clear that he was expecting us all to go to university and be contributing members of society.
i think in the end every teenager is different, and whaf works for one kid won't work for another. However, I also think if you make it clear that you love them and want to be there for them no matter what that most kids will confide in their parents. Especially if they don't get dismissed on other issues their parents think are trivial.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 15:28:22 GMT -5
If you ground her, it isn't just that you don't agree with her choice. Its that you are saying she MUST make your choice. And not because it is a reasonable and rational choice for her to make, but because you said so... That's the kind of think I try to avoid.
I do think, as someone else said that relationships where you don't 'grow into' the parenting thing with your child are going to be more difficult to navigate. I still think natural consequences are best if an when at all possible. When and where I grew up, parents were often from the "because I said so" school of thought. I know I'm more likely to comply with something if I know why I need/have to do it, so I was willing to answer "why" unless we'd already been over the same thing a hundred times. My kids are adults but I'm interested in this natural consequences instead of "punishing" or grounding thing. If, for example, your son did like smoking weed and smoked it every chance he got, how would you handle that? That might not be the best example, but it's related to what's already been mentioned in the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 15:45:18 GMT -5
Natural consequences.
Choosing to smoke pot all the time. Hmm. I would guess it is impacting his relationships and responsibilities? And those things have consequences.
Smoking pot is illegal. If he is caught there are/will be legal consequences. If he chose to smoke pot daily he could not work with my husband for liability reasons. He could not drive a car I own for liability reasons. He then could not afford to buy the things he wants and I have no obligation to buy them for him... etc if they makes sense?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 25, 2015 16:13:14 GMT -5
I had a "don't ask don't tell" policy. DS used it twice. I went and picked him up. Next day I took him to get his car. It never was discussed between us what happened. I told him way before it went down that he was bound to do something dumb and to not compound it by driving. Other than that, he got excellent grades and behaved himself. What a blessing. Then there was his sister-another story. I try not to even remember what she put me through.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:13:31 GMT -5
So you are not supposed to discipline a child for bad behavior if they tell you the truth? Truth = Regular discipline/grounding Lie = 3X regular discipline/grounding. You make me into a detective to figure out the lie . . . not going to be pretty!
Not sure about GW posting, or really what it has to do with suicide and boys.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 16:30:16 GMT -5
Tough one.
Part of the problem is that sometimes the natural consequences are too great to allow a child to experience them if there is any possible way that a parent can prevent it. I'm a big believer in the idea of natural consequences, but only when the natural consequence is not so great that it's essentially a life or death consequence. Not always easy to decide.
Continuing along with the pot example, while there is still no definitive answer and not all the studies have had sufficient data or have been well designed, some studies have suggested that pot can exacerbate or even trigger certain mental illnesses in teens, especially for people with a predisposition to mental illness. Again, I don't know that we know enough to conclude which triggers what - chicken/egg - but I know we have a family history of mental illness, so it's concerning to think that something that is for most teens a passing, harmless thing could end up being a contributor to starting my kids down a path that has rendered many of my relatives' lives into an endless disaster.
So you could understand why with something like this, I would probably not be OK with allowing natural consequences to just play out. Losing a job, minor legal troubles, etc are reasonable natural consequences and I wouldn't shield a kid from those. Allowing pot use to trigger, hasten or worsen something like schizophrenia/bipolar or a worse case of schizophrenia/bipolar than he'd otherwise develop without the drug use? May be a natural consequence, but not one that I will sit quietly by and let him experience if there's any chance I can help it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:34:17 GMT -5
That includes lies of omission Rockit? ... We aren't talking whether or not they will tell you the truth necessarily. Just whether or not they will TELL you. Why should my child tell me anything, or ask me anything, if he is going to be punished for talking to me?
I think the suicide angle is, if I can't talk to you, why should I talk to you, and if you don't cultivate an environment of open dialogue and communication in one area, why would it happen that they would come to you if they were in trouble in another area? And too often drugs and alcohol do get wrapped up in depression and despondency... so that if there is a ban on discussing the one for fear of punishment, then discussing the other becomes off limits as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:35:09 GMT -5
milee said what I wanted to better than I could. That was the idea behind grounding her for getting black out drunk. That is dangerous. I don't want her learning not to do that from natural consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:35:31 GMT -5
Milee, do you think that you forbidding it and punishing them for it is more likely to stop them from trying it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:38:15 GMT -5
I wouldn't ground them from getting black out drunk. I'd have them go talk to someone who has either witnessed, or been in the situation of being in the position of being black out drunk and discuss the consequences with them. I'd pop in a few documentaries and let them see what happens when you are black out drunk. We'd run some scenarios about what can and can not happen when you are black out drunk. ... I don't see being grounded as doing any education, or really any corrective behavior, as far as correcting the behavior I want corrected.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 16:39:33 GMT -5
Milee, do you think that you forbidding it and punishing them for it is more likely to stop them from trying it? I don't know but that doesn't really describe what I've done or would do so maybe someone else would be better at answering.
I'm also getting the impression that for you this is one of those topics where if you feel others disagree, you take it very personally and get into hector mode with anybody who posts something different. I'm not really interested in getting entangled in one of those today.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 16:42:39 GMT -5
milee said what I wanted to better than I could. That was the idea behind grounding her for getting black out drunk. That is dangerous. I don't want her learning not to do that from natural consequences. It's understandably different for different kids, but I don't use grounding for my boys. Part of that is that it's not very effective for them, but part of it is I'm trying to help them link action and consequence.
Neither has gotten black out drunk, but if/when one does, I have some ideas on consequences that will be very meaningful to them, like losing the ability to drive for a while because driving requires sound judgment and getting black out drunk demonstrates that they are still developing good judgment, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:43:54 GMT -5
milee, it would take my kids about 10 minutes to find links that said correlation is not causation and newest studies that say genes are linked but not causal. That with no genetic risk of schizophrenia would mean they would be unlikely to accept that rationale as a reason they should never smoke pot.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:45:09 GMT -5
Milee, do you think that you forbidding it and punishing them for it is more likely to stop them from trying it? I don't know but that doesn't really describe what I've done or would do so maybe someone else would be better at answering.
I'm also getting the impression that for you this is one of those topics where if you feel others disagree, you take it very personally and get into hector mode with anybody who posts something different. I'm not really interested in getting entangled in one of those today.
No I was wondering if you thought that forbidding and punishing might be effective methods for curtailing the behavior... As I said, I've never observed them to be really effective, but would be open to hearing about situations in which it was effective in stopping the desired behaviors but did not hinder open communication...
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 16:47:37 GMT -5
milee, it would take my kids about 10 minutes to find links that said correlation is not causation and newest studies that say genes are linked but not causal. That with no genetic risk of schizophrenia would mean they would be unlikely to accept that rationale as a reason they should never smoke pot. Then what I posted is not something that should be a factor for your family.
This is why I posted about what I would do with MY family. And even though you are apparently taking it as such, it was not a comment about what you should do with YOUR family.
Again, for certain topics you seem to take any posted comments, no matter how random or if they're directed at you, personally. Even when they're not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:49:44 GMT -5
And I was answering for MY family and not making any judgment about how it would work as a natural consequence in yours.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 16:52:47 GMT -5
But your answer specifically addressed me - as if you were implying that I was recommending that you do something.
Similar to how you specifically addressed me and asked if forbidding and punishing is effective - implying that this is what I do. That's a little like the old example of the prejudicial "question", "So when did you stop beating your wife?" It's not a question, it's a statement. It would be similar to me asking "Oped, do you think that by not providing children with any education or guidance, they'll turn out OK?" [Not what I think, but an example of using a "question" as a statement.]
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:55:47 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your post above. You said it was a tough one and seemed to indicate that you couldn't let natural consequences take their course. Since the OP was about punishment and using punishment to correct behavior was what the thread was discussing, I thought that was what you were suggesting. I can see I must have been wrong. I don't think I'm the only one, as later seemed to think your post supported her decision to ground for black out drunkness.
Given the issues in your family, and that you wouldn't want them to smoke pot, and you wouldn't forbid or punish, how would you go about stopping them?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 16:57:52 GMT -5
And I honestly don't think 'if you forbid and punish you must be wrong!'... if that has been effective for people I'd love to hear about it. I just have not found that to be effective.
ie. I am not saying forbidding and punishing is akin to beating your wife. That was not my suggestion. I was just wondering if anyone had found them to be very effective tools in both stopping the undesired behavior and maintaining communication.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 25, 2015 16:57:55 GMT -5
Natural consequences of getting puking drunk: I don't care how hung over you are, get up at 7. go clean the bathroom. Clean out the Litter box. Shovel dog crap. Mow the lawn. Clean the garage. Clean the garbage cans. Do whatever smelly dirty job I can find. I will cook the stinkiest dinner I can think of. You will sit there while we eat. And you will clean up,after dinner.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 17:24:21 GMT -5
I think the whole point in the OP is that it's best if your children feel they can talk to you. I don't think that means that you have to pretend that everything they come to you about is ok, but I think the lines of communication get shut down if the parent always flies off the handle or has some other kind of major negative reaction. It's ok and often necessary to let your child know you disagree, but I think it's very important how you express your disagreement if you don't want them to shut down and never tell you anything else.
Having my kids feel like they could talk to me was very important, because I never felt like I could really talk to my Mom. I tried to create an atmosphere where they could be fairly confident that I'd try to have a reasonable reaction if they brought up a sensitive subject. A reasonable reaction didn't mean I'd go along with whatever they said, but I would try to have a rational conversation where we both listened to what the other had to say instead of me just flying off the handle all the time. I think one of the problems with some kids is they don't feel like their parents really listen or pay attention to them. I don't see how you can effectively guide a child if you won't even listen when they try to express themselves or talk to you about what's going on in their lives. Kids need to feel like their ideas and thoughts do matter, even though their parents make the rules. Just my opinion.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 17:26:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your post above. You said it was a tough one and seemed to indicate that you couldn't let natural consequences take their course. Since the OP was about punishment and using punishment to correct behavior was what the thread was discussing, I thought that was what you were suggesting. I can see I must have been wrong. I don't think I'm the only one, as later seemed to think your post supported her decision to ground for black out drunkness.
Given the issues in your family, and that you wouldn't want them to smoke pot, and you wouldn't forbid or punish, how would you go about stopping them? I think too much emphasis is placed on what happens after a bad choice is made and not enough emphasis is placed on the structure we set up to prevent and avoid those choices to begin with.
From when the boys were young, we have talked to them about drugs. Not lectures, not short "just say no" , but weaving the discussions into other things using news as a starting point and making sure to link those types of discussions into all sorts of other subjects - like career choices and how illegal activities narrow options, etc. Not as one-way as it sounds. We've also read things together as they are published, from WSJ articles to studies to news accounts of people being jailed. We've all talked about our experiences and experiments growing up. We've responded to their questions and thoughts about why Uncle X is sometimes homeless or why Cousin Y has never had a job and lives with Relative Z. None of this was a big, huge Come to Jesus meeting where we handed down the Commandments on high. More like a few casual sentences here and there with follow up as they asked questions or in response to things they brought up - but consistent and constant over time.
Setting the tone and modeling is important. And it's linked to many things. Just the other day 11 year old DS made a comment about seeing somebody doing something illegal and then said something along the lines of "we don't do that not just because it's wrong and it's illegal but because it might hurt somebody." So even though we never specifically discussed not doing the illegal thing he observed, he was able to apply the general discussions we have on other topics to this topic.
We also talk about "what ifs". What happens if we're at a party and there are drugs? What happens if a friend is doing drugs? What are ways to not try drugs but still be part of a group? How do you decide when to try something and what might happen? Etc. We even joke about "what ifs".
In the meantime, we try to model behavior that we want them to emulate. We all talk about how certain choices make other possibilities more difficult. They get the overall connection between how on the whole success is linked to a series of choices over time. We work on ways to recover when we make a mistake. We show them our mistakes and talk through ways to solve problems.
All this happens and sets up the framework before they even get into the situation. Time will tell, but so far, with the things that we believe are important (like avoiding drugs, getting good grades, being respectful, etc), they haven't made big mistakes so there hasn't been much need for guidance after the fact. And given that the older one came to me and told me when one of his friends was selling his prescription medication and the younger tells me pretty much everything blow by blow (dear God, I don't need all that detail!), they appear to be willing to be open and honest with me.
Hypothetically, if one started smoking pot, the first thing I'd be doing would be talking with him to figure out why. If it was a "situational" thing, then we'd work on a plan to help him avoid that situation. If it was a "depression" or "escape" thing, then we'd be getting counseling to work on that. If it continued even after those things, then I'd seriously consider more drastic measures that quickly escalated to indicate the seriousness with which I view this particular issue. Drastic such as greatly increased supervision or family time (which teens view as a punishment in itself), increased unpleasant household chores, etc. If none of those worked, I'd move on to more drastic things or even move the family since I think it's often really hard for people to change when they're surrounded by the same friends who are part of the original problem.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 17:32:11 GMT -5
Oh, should add to the prior post that one of the other things we do to prevent these issues is to carefully consider what the kids are exposed to.
We've stopped letting the kids see friends that do drugs or who have drugs in the house. Sometimes it's been a decision we all make together and sometimes it's been more of my phasing the relationship out without a specific discussion. You can't avoid drugs entirely - we live in Florida, they're everywhere - but you can reduce exposure.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jul 25, 2015 17:32:14 GMT -5
My mom was very non-judgmental, supportive, etc. I was invited to come to her openly with anything and it was implied that there wouldn't be knee-jerk discipline.
I never smoked, drank, or did recreational drugs. I never felt the need to lie to her, I was able to discuss with her safe sex and she took me to get BC pills (No sex until college either.) I made good decisions while growing up and never felt the need to rebel, because I didn't have anything that even remotely resembled tight boundaries on my behavior.
It depends. OF COURSE it depends. It depends on your kids. Massive difference in how you handle your kids if they have a history of bad decision making, or they are tossing around some experimentation. If my kid makes a lot of good decisions, is generally open with me, has peers that I have met and he has stable relationships with, the amount of leeway he's going to get is a whole lot more if he's been caught shoplifting in the past, hides things, goes from the front door to locking himself in his room in 30 seconds, doesn't talk about his day to day life.
I HOPE I get to raise my kids like I was raised. I have no idea how to handle someone who caves to peer pressure and does stupid shit for fun or for the approval of their peers. We'll see, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 17:45:43 GMT -5
Does anyone know Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development? I guess another part of my feelings about this stem from my belief that it is part of my job to help lead my kids towards post-conventional moral reasoning. Its not just that I don't want to mess with lines of communication. I also don't want them to base their decisions on avoiding punishment or being obedient. I want them to develop a higher functioning moral center.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 17:52:32 GMT -5
Natural consequences of getting puking drunk: I don't care how hung over you are, get up at 7. go clean the bathroom. Clean out the Litter box. Shovel dog crap. Mow the lawn. Clean the garage. Clean the garbage cans. Do whatever smelly dirty job I can find. I will cook the stinkiest dinner I can think of. You will sit there while we eat. And you will clean up,after dinner. I got sloppy drunk at a family reunion out of town when I was 14yo I think. My Mom and my aunt were very embarrassed. They thought I'd pay for it the next day by being hung over but I felt completely fine, not even a headache. Drinking wasn't a taboo subject in my family, my Uncle would let me taste his beer or whatever sometimes, just a sip. I thought it all tasted disgusting. I'm not sure why a distant cousin and I decided to steal his Aunt's liquor at the family reunion. Anyway, my Mom talked to me about it when we got back home, and I don't remember her punishing me. I do remember how she was so disappointed in me and how much I'd embarrassed her and my Aunt. I also remember how freaked out they were because I was so drunk I told them I'd taken some drugs with my cousin that was at home, several states away. The thought that I might have taken some drugs worried the crap out of them until they found out it was just liquor. I was basically a good kid, so just upsetting them like that meant that was the beginning and the end of my underage drinking.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:13:08 GMT -5
milee said what I wanted to better than I could. That was the idea behind grounding her for getting black out drunk. That is dangerous. I don't want her learning not to do that from natural consequences. It's understandably different for different kids, but I don't use grounding for my boys. Part of that is that it's not very effective for them, but part of it is I'm trying to help them link action and consequence.
Neither has gotten black out drunk, but if/when one does, I have some ideas on consequences that will be very meaningful to them, like losing the ability to drive for a while because driving requires sound judgment and getting black out drunk demonstrates that they are still developing good judgment, etc.
Maybe I used the wrong words. Could be grounded from driving. Could be grounded from parties. Could be grounded from having cell phone/games. Grounded = removal of privileges related to the bad behavior.
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