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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:41:56 GMT -5
2 kids, same nature/nurture environment. One is an adrenaline junkie and will do crazy shit just to do it. Also subject to peer pressure. She was HELL as a teenager. The other one is very conservative, traditional, easy to deal with.
And for the record, if they were to run afoul of the law while doing dumb-ass teenage things, yeah I'm intervening and the kid will be subject to my punishment/grounding in preference to ending up in jail or with a record that prevents them getting college education or decent jobs. Parents that let their kids suffer the 'natural consequences' of that kind of situation don't understand the long term destruction that can ensue.
Kids have survived. We have a good relationship as adults. No one is in jail/has been in jail/has killed anyone or done anything horrible, including me.
My understanding is that kids 'moral center' and 'values' are defined by the time they are 8-10. Am not familiar with Kohlberg.
We used to do a lot of logic discussion & What would you do scenarios & discuss everything. Kids were allowed to argue with me IF they had logical arguments to present. I taught them critical thinking skills so I believe that helps in decision making & choices.
So pretty much I don't put much faith in one method over another. There is some other wiring in people that can usurp what teachings/modeling you provide.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 25, 2015 18:51:35 GMT -5
It's also important to acknowledge that discipline and guidance is monumentally more tricky with kids who are "new" to you versus a kid that you've been together with since s/he was born.
My deepest thanks and appreciation to parents like Laterbloomer and Shanendoah who are stepping into parenting kids when the kid is already mid-childhood. Step parents have a pretty tough road as well. These guys are all having to very quickly figure out not only what's happened in the past and how it shaped their new child, but what motivates, scares, enrages, encourages and annoys their child. Totally different situation, challenges and solutions than it is for me and they have my respect for taking it on.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 25, 2015 19:19:13 GMT -5
And for the record, if they were to run afoul of the law while doing dumb-ass teenage things, yeah I'm intervening and the kid will be subject to my punishment/grounding in preference to ending up in jail or with a record that prevents them getting college education or decent jobs. Parents that let their kids suffer the 'natural consequences' of that kind of situation don't understand the long term destruction that can ensue.
Sometimes though, it is the slap in the face they need. I have a cousin whose parents have tried it your way for the last 8 years. The kid (26 yo) continued to do really stupid things and wound up getting arrested.
He is sitting in jail, and has been there for 3 months now. He missed my dad's memorial a couple weeks ago, and he normally would ave been there with the rest of his family.
Who knows if this will work, but he has cost his folks thousands of $$ and they are at the end of their rope. Nothing else as worked.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 19:25:08 GMT -5
And getting slapped as a juvenile can be expunged.
I have a friend who has cushioned their son's many brush ins with the law for years. (I also blame the system here, too many slaps in wrist I think.. Never really his fault of course) ... The next one he's 18... And given his lack of remorse/change I unfortunately think there will be a next one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 19:26:19 GMT -5
Does anyone know Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development? I guess another part of my feelings about this stem from my belief that it is part of my job to help lead my kids towards post-conventional moral reasoning. Its not just that I don't want to mess with lines of communication. I also don't want them to base their decisions on avoiding punishment or being obedient. I want them to develop a higher functioning moral center.
LOL When people say stuff like this I always wonder what they think everyone else is trying to do. We don't word it that way but we all want to develop a higher functioning moral centre. We are only debating about how to get there. You made another comment about talking to the kids and getting them to reason out what will happen and logic out why doing something is not a good idea. In my experience the theoretical knowledge doesn't impress kids much. They;re little scientists and have to do the experiments themselves for a lot of things. As GW got older I talked to her about natural consequences, and for a lot of things I let them just happen. With the getting drunk I told her that she was getting too old for me to protect her from herself. I was grounding her because I needed to make the point that getting that drunk was a big deal, both in the danger to herself and the disrespect for me and my house rules. In four years she had consequences only 3 or 4 times. Once when she initiated emailing with her father when it was illegal for them to be in contact. Another time was for skipping school and lying to me about it. Then the time she got drunk. It seems to me there was something else but I can't think of it right now. I don't overuse consequences/punishment.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 19:30:49 GMT -5
Actually, I don't think everyone wants to develop a higher functioning moral center at all. I'm not suggesting you don't later, but in general, I think there are many out there in the world who do want their children to maintain pre conventional moral reasoning.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 25, 2015 20:13:08 GMT -5
... we all want to develop a higher functioning moral centre. ... But do we also want a hamburger with those fries.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:15:09 GMT -5
oped We disagree on that. ETA - I do believe there are people that want other people's kids to stay at that level.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:16:55 GMT -5
Do you think the Duggars for instance are interested in developing higher functioning moral centers?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:18:09 GMT -5
Do you think the Duggars for instance are interested in developing higher functioning moral centers? Absolutely. They believe they are operating on that level and if they rest of us would catch up we would agree with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:30:54 GMT -5
And getting slapped as a juvenile can be expunged. I have a friend who has cushioned their son's many brush ins with the law for years. (I also blame the system here, too many slaps in wrist I think.. Never really his fault of course) ... The next one he's 18... And given his lack of remorse/change I unfortunately think there will be a next one. I think there has to be a stopping point when they keep doing the same thing or different versions of the same thing. One of my clearly drawn lines was around criminal activity. I might try to mitigate the damage the first time, but if you insist on breaking the law, you're on your own. And don't expect me to cover for you either, I'm not going to jail because you want to be stupid. I'm your Momma and I love you, but I'll call the police on you myself if I know you're running around acting like a hoodlum. I was always very clear about that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:31:24 GMT -5
They believe they are operating at a level of social contract in which rules should be questioned, of universal ethics, the self selection of a more abstract and flexible individual morality which sometimes supersedes mutual benefit ?
Yeah, I don't get that at all. I doubt they get much beyond fulfilling duties and abiding what they see as biblical law. And they definitely teach through punishment and obedience. That what you choose to do in life you choose because one should be obedient and avoid being punished.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:39:53 GMT -5
They believe they are operating at a level of social contract in which rules should be questioned, in there version it is man made rules that should be questioned of universal ethics otherwise known as God's laws, the self selection of a more abstract and flexible individual morality which sometimes supersedes mutual benefit again, they believe God's law does that at times? Yeah, I don't get that at all. I doubt they get much beyond fulfilling duties and abiding what they see as biblical law. And they definitely teach through punishment and obedience. That what you choose to do in life you choose because one should be obedient and avoid being punished. In the Duggar's view they have questioned their faith and it stood the test, they don't follow what they believe to be God's law to avoid punishment but to be part of the Kingdom of Heaven. That IS different than avoiding punishment. You don't agree with them, but in their minds they are the enlightened ones, just as you believe you are the enlightened one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:47:06 GMT -5
I was specifically referencing Kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning and how it influences how I attempt to guide my children. This isn't about moral superiority. It's about thought process.
Avoid punishment/ get a reward is the same level of moral reasoning. It's still self centered reasoning. It isn't about the act of choosing something because it is right or good or just or because you have even considered if/why it is or is not moral, good, just. It's about self interest.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:50:40 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of a lady I worked with about 20 years ago. Her oldest son was in his late teens I think, and he was on the run because he was wanted for murder. I think she knew where he was, but I don't remember for sure and I don't want to lie on her.
One day she was going on and on about how she'd taught her sons to question authority and some other stuff. I couldn't help but wonder if maybe she missed some other necessary lessons she should have also been teaching them and that had something to do with why her oldest son had already been arrested several times and was on the run at that time and her youngest wasn't far behind him. It didn't seem like all that free thinking was working out so well for her kids.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 25, 2015 20:51:32 GMT -5
I think too much emphasis is placed on what happens after a bad choice is made and not enough emphasis is placed on the structure we set up to prevent and avoid those choices to begin with.
From when the boys were young, we have talked to them about drugs. Not lectures, not short "just say no" , but weaving the discussions into other things using news as a starting point and making sure to link those types of discussions into all sorts of other subjects - like career choices and how illegal activities narrow options, etc. Not as one-way as it sounds. We've also read things together as they are published, from WSJ articles to studies to news accounts of people being jailed. We've all talked about our experiences and experiments growing up. We've responded to their questions and thoughts about why Uncle X is sometimes homeless or why Cousin Y has never had a job and lives with Relative Z. None of this was a big, huge Come to Jesus meeting where we handed down the Commandments on high. More like a few casual sentences here and there with follow up as they asked questions or in response to things they brought up - but consistent and constant over time.
Setting the tone and modeling is important. And it's linked to many things. Just the other day 11 year old DS made a comment about seeing somebody doing something illegal and then said something along the lines of "we don't do that not just because it's wrong and it's illegal but because it might hurt somebody." So even though we never specifically discussed not doing the illegal thing he observed, he was able to apply the general discussions we have on other topics to this topic.
We also talk about "what ifs". What happens if we're at a party and there are drugs? What happens if a friend is doing drugs? What are ways to not try drugs but still be part of a group? How do you decide when to try something and what might happen? Etc. We even joke about "what ifs".
In the meantime, we try to model behavior that we want them to emulate. We all talk about how certain choices make other possibilities more difficult. They get the overall connection between how on the whole success is linked to a series of choices over time. We work on ways to recover when we make a mistake. We show them our mistakes and talk through ways to solve problems.
All this happens and sets up the framework before they even get into the situation. Time will tell, but so far, with the things that we believe are important (like avoiding drugs, getting good grades, being respectful, etc), they haven't made big mistakes so there hasn't been much need for guidance after the fact. And given that the older one came to me and told me when one of his friends was selling his prescription medication and the younger tells me pretty much everything blow by blow (dear God, I don't need all that detail!), they appear to be willing to be open and honest with me.
Hypothetically, if one started smoking pot, the first thing I'd be doing would be talking with him to figure out why. If it was a "situational" thing, then we'd work on a plan to help him avoid that situation. If it was a "depression" or "escape" thing, then we'd be getting counseling to work on that. If it continued even after those things, then I'd seriously consider more drastic measures that quickly escalated to indicate the seriousness with which I view this particular issue. Drastic such as greatly increased supervision or family time (which teens view as a punishment in itself), increased unpleasant household chores, etc. If none of those worked, I'd move on to more drastic things or even move the family since I think it's often really hard for people to change when they're surrounded by the same friends who are part of the original problem.
I think this is largely the way we've done things with our kids. We discuss anything and everything with them, and they seem to feel fine discussing all sorts of things with us - like the scandal at school when someone made pot brownies and gave them to friends (at school, w/o telling them about the pot). The outrage was because some of the kids given the brownies wanted to be drug-free, and were incensed that that decision had been taken away from them. Other discussions were about bicurious classmates, or who was gay - we talked about how little it bothers the teens, at least at their school, but it was never mentioned when I was in school. I heard about drinking at parties they attended, and at ones they missed - another big flap was when DS2's friends ended up in the ER with alcohol poisoning, other friends made the decision to call 911. We talked quite a bit about the issues - watching out for friends when they make bad decisions, when to call for help even if it gets you or someone else in trouble, when you can see trouble a mile off, just how dangerous alcohol can be. Thankfully, so far it seems my kids are largely learning from others' mistakes. We started long before they were teens - lying is our number 1 deal breaker. We did punish when they were little, and lying about something was much worse than whatever else they might have done wrong. We wanted them to be truthful with us, and we are truthful with them in return, to set the stage for honest discussions. We don't have secrets from them, they can ask us anything. Generally, we don't forbid them much either, unless for very good reason. We don't really drink, but we let the kids try/taste alcohol. Usually they dislike it at a young age - DS5 chooses not to take wine at Communion since he doesn't like it. Would I let them drink enough to get drunk? No, but removing the forbidden mystique early seems to satisfy them. They know they have the power to make the decision, they don't seem to feel the need to rebel against us. And the discussions about drawbacks make them think twice before finally trying things as nearly adults, hopefully in a moderate manner. I've also always made sure they know that they can call me to come get them from a situation, even if it is inconvenient to me, no questions asked. I don't have to ask - I'm sure they will tell me ALL about it, but even if they didn't just the fact that they called me so they could leave tells me they made a choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:54:47 GMT -5
Oped I'm not wording the why they do it very well. Go to Heaven, be part of Heaven...Heaven is all that is right and good. Look, I don't like the Duggars but they are not sitting there saying we want to raise 18, or 19 or 20 little zombies that just do what their told so they don't get punished. As adults they want their kids to have a higher reasoning for doing the right and just thing and they want them to stand up for that no matter what punishment is threatened. To them that goal is compatible with God's laws and heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:57:05 GMT -5
Pink-Questioning authority doesn't mean breaking laws with impunity. I think I've said law can be a very corrective natural consequence. But law should be questioned. And our abidance of it should be a decision we've made, for reasons that make sense to us, and not just because we are obedient or avoiding punishment. If we think a law is something we can/should not live with, we should work to change it.
Most at of us generally break laws and rules to some degree.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:01:21 GMT -5
Later, I'm not talking higher reason, as in higher power. I'm talking higher functioning reasoning process.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:07:34 GMT -5
I know what you are talking about oped. Anyway, don't worry about it. It turns out you really do think you are unique in your goals. You weren't being unintentionally insulting as I originally thought. Fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:10:00 GMT -5
I don't think I'm unique in my goals. I don't think everyone shares the same goals.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:30:08 GMT -5
Later, I used th Duggars because they are generally known. I homeschool in an area with lots of conservative evangelicals and even a few quiverful proponents. I observe that they really don't want their children to question them, their rules, their interpretation of the bible, what they view as God's law. They want obedience and teach punishment avoidance, both theirs and the wrath of God. They might get so far as doing what society, theirs, feels is right and abiding by laws of their chosen society, but that is as far as it goes. They do not want kids to think independently, question, look at things from multiple angles, etc.
This is not what I see in all religious people/families. I don't think religion and higher level moral reasoning are incompatible. I just don't thi everyone has it as a goal, and how they guide their children is evidenced in that belief.
I definitely rebel from a 'because I said so' approach. I also see it backfire a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:49:44 GMT -5
Pink-Questioning authority doesn't mean breaking laws with impunity. I think I've said law can be a very corrective natural consequence. But law should be questioned. And our abidance of it should be a decision we've made, for reasons that make sense to us, and not just because we are obedient or avoiding punishment. If we think a law is something we can/should not live with, we should work to change it. Most at of us generally break laws and rules to some degree. No, I don't think questioning authority means that you don't have to respect authority. But from her conversation I got the impression that that's what her sons had learned and that perhaps she'd missed some important lessons. I'm almost positive that I remember her knowing her son's movements to evade capture and was helping him. I'm all for helping kids learn to think for themselves, that it's ok to ask questions and having them know that you'll always be there for them. She just popped into my head as a parent that seemed to have gone a little far with some things or not far enough with other things. Her kids weren't bucking the system as a means to achieve a common good for society, they were accused more than once of breaking laws that are common and acceptable in most civilised societies. Laws against stealing, robbing and killing. There is no honor in breaking those laws just because you want to. Her conversations were a clue that something had gone wrong somewhere and it might have had something to do with them receiving some bad messages from her. If she really was helping him hide like I seem to remember, that's like the ultimate in bad messages for a child with criminal tendencies. Just my opinion. Anyway, that doesn't really have anything to do with what you all are talking about. Lol
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:53:09 GMT -5
Ok, I'll admit I'm not sure what exactly higher level moral reasoning is. I don't want to think hard enough to figure out if it's another name for something I'm already familiar with and I'm too lazy to look it up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:06:08 GMT -5
This is Kohlberg. He certainly isn't the only moral development theorist, and has his critics, but it's what I was thinking of when I started this tangent...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:19:13 GMT -5
So is it when a person believes it's ok to be different or go against the grain when it's what's right for them, as long as they are not imposing on another person's right or ability to also walk their own path? Or something like that?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 22:30:14 GMT -5
Here is a link to the Heinz Dilemma which Kohlberg used in his research... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemmaA quote "From a theoretical point of view, it is not important what the participant thinks that Heinz should do. Kohlberg's theory holds that the justification the participant offers is what is significant, the form of their response. Below are some of many examples of possible arguments that belong to the six stages:" ie. Do we justify our actions based on obedience and punishment, self interest, conformity, social authority, social contract or universal ethical principles. In in my example, I feel like I want to teach my children to base their judgements on reasoning that is at the higher end of that scale rather than the lower end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:13:48 GMT -5
If I'm understanding correctly, I agree with Later that that is what most parents want for their children.
I think even some of the parents that use "because I said so" don't want their kids to grow up and be blindly obedient, or make decisions based on lower level reasoning, they just don't think THEY have to always explain everything to their child.
So right before I hit post, DD walked in and I asked her if I ever said "because I said so" to them and I barely got it out of my mouth before she said "YES!". Fail! lol
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