Depression/anxiety need some guidance/advice

[Tiny]

I have a friend who's been dealing with depression and anxiety for several years.    

I'm trying to reach out more to her since every time we talk she says things that lead me to believe she'd like to 'get out more' or 'do things'. I could be misinterpreting her protestations of "I wish I was doing X like you are" or "I haven't gone/done anything on a weekend in months"   I know now she's had an irreconcilable falling out with a friend she was very tight with - but who wasn't part of "our group" of friends.  That happened about a year ago. Her world seems to be getting smaller and smaller.  

Her sometimes extreme reactions to "everyday" kinds of things sometimes baffles me...

I'm wondering if when you are depressed or anxious if on some level you are aware that your perceptions don't match reality?

I've dealt with ennui often - I don't think it was depression - and at some point I'd become aware of it.     I recently had a somewhat scary experience with wacked out hormones - in that I had unrelenting feelings of anger (really nasty unpleasant ANGER) not particularly directed at anything... but I was aware of the simmering rage that never went away (of course, a week before a scheduled drs appointment to figure out what the heck is going on... it starts fading).   I was aware that my anger over my empty coffee cup  or the angry Rant going round and round in my head of "Why can't  someone fix the god damn f&*King potholes!!  I pay f&*king TAXES!!!"  as I drove my car- didn't really match reality.  It was starting to get scary and exhausting dealing with it.     

Is depression/anxiety like that?  Is there some awareness that perception doesn't match reality? 

[Opti]

Need more details, way more details. Finances, deaths & sicknesses in family, etc.

I'm trying to reach out more to her since every time we talk she says things that lead me to believe she'd like to 'get out more' or 'do things'. I could be misinterpreting her protestations of "I wish I was doing X like you are" or "I haven't gone/done anything on a weekend in months" I know now she's had an irreconcilable falling out with a friend she was very tight with - but who wasn't part of "our group" of friends. That happened about a year ago. Her world seems to be getting smaller and smaller.

 

You are probably misinterpreting her protestations which are likely jealousy. Is she jealous of you because she can not afford to do these things, thinks she can not, option 432?

Your world gets smaller when you are depressed. Not sure about anxiety, although I am  learning more right now because of new person & old BF. People have falling outs, for years, even without depression or anxiety, so ... more info please.

[quince]

I don't know so much about depression: all of mine has been at least a bit situational. 

However, anxiety? I am quite aware that my anxious reactions aren't rational and don't fit in with how the world works. I can even tell when my levels of anxiety are higher than normal for me. (my version of PMS. New and different after having a child. Go me.)  I know having a nervous breakdown at the thought of training in martial arts in a new dojo, or falling apart sobbing because someone honks at me in traffic is an incredibly disproportionate reaction to the situation.  

It did take me a little while to realize that my reactions were not normal: I spent a good long time believing that everyone was as uncomfortable around people/with uncontrolled situations as I was, and I was just weak, because I showed my discomfort.   

[Opti]

Quince, what martial arts do you study?

[haapai]

I've heard a lot of people who have received treatment for depression talk about how depression causes their minds lie to them.  I've heard this from damn smart people.  There's biochemical feedback loop involved. 

Perhaps someone else can explain it better.  Perhaps some day I'll be able to explain it better. 

I have reason to believe that I have been suffering from moderate to severe depression for about two years now but I can't get my stuff together to seek treatment. 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Depression can lead a person to not want to go out/socialize.

It can also lead to Agoraphobia - Agoraphobia may have been the trigger that led to depression.

Also a person can suffer Agoraphobia without having depression.

Has your friend been professionally diagnosed? She may have one, both, or neither.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoraphobia

[giramomma]

I think depression can be comorbid with other issues. In my experience depression was comorbid with a likely personality disorder.
It's hard to tease out which issue might be causing the difference in perception vs reality.

This interests me:
I'm trying to reach out more to her since every time we talk she says things that lead me to believe she'd like to 'get out more' or 'do things'. I could be misinterpreting her protestations of "I wish I was doing X like you are" or "I haven't gone/done anything on a weekend in months"

I would not necessarily take these statements to mean she wants to get out more. I was told "I haven't done abc" in x amount of years, and it was meant for me to feel bad for the other person or have the other person try to make me feel guilty.

Same thing with "I wish I was doing.." Such statements were not statements of "I want to change my behavior, I just don't know how." They are attempts to make me feel poorly.

[quince]

Jun 25, 2015 0:03:10 GMT -5 Opti said:

Quince, what martial arts do you study?

Aikido. Any day week now I'll make myself go on a day when the main instructor is teaching.

[mamasita99]

My mom has lived with depression most of her adult life, after the kids left the house she finally started getting treatment. I know that her perception of the environment is pretty skewed, towards negative. It's how her brain is wired. I picture stimuli entering the brain and then train tracks taking the stimuli to another stop to react. Her brain has deep tracks leading to negative reactions (feeling guilt, shame, sadness, or assuming bad things). The stimuli could have resulted in realistic thoughts, or positive thoughts, but her brain is so used to travelling to the negative thoughts because those tracks are well worn and deep.

I don't know if that explanation makes sense, but I deal with anxiety, and the process is the same. Visualizing my own brain making choices on how to respond to stimuli helps me become more aware of unrealistic thoughts and how I can choose to turn those thoughts onto different paths.

[happyhoix]

Maybe this can explain my two sisters.

Both seem to spend most of their time mired in negative but unrealistic thoughts. I don't try to help them come up with ways to change their situations anymore because they automatically shoot down everything I suggest as 'impossible.' I've concluded they just like (or maybe feel comfortable) with forlorn and helpless thoughts. Maybe they like to be victims?

It's been this way over 30 years so I don't think they're changing. This is just their personalities, I guess.
 

[Opti]

Jun 25, 2015 1:01:34 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I think depression can be comorbid with other issues. In my experience depression was comorbid with a likely personality disorder.
It's hard to tease out which issue might be causing the difference in perception vs reality.

This interests me:
I'm trying to reach out more to her since every time we talk she says things that lead me to believe she'd like to 'get out more' or 'do things'. I could be misinterpreting her protestations of "I wish I was doing X like you are" or "I haven't gone/done anything on a weekend in months"

I would not necessarily take these statements to mean she wants to get out more. I was told "I haven't done abc" in x amount of years, and it was meant for me to feel bad for the other person or have the other person try to make me feel guilty.

Same thing with "I wish I was doing.." Such statements were not statements of "I want to change my behavior, I just don't know how." They are attempts to make me feel poorly.

How do you know it was intended for you to feel bad for the other person(if so, is that so awful?) or make you feel poorly? You feel poorly (or not) based on how you choose to view anyone's communications with you.

I guess this bugs me a bit, as if you are underfunded, are you supposed to pretend you do not miss doing

things you used to do? Should *I* or said person care more about the feelings of someone who still can afford to do those things and less about our own feelings of lack and loss? *If I said something like that, I assure you it wouldn't be to make you feel guilty. If anything, it would just be my sadness(not Clinical depression) that wanted to whine for a bit.*

Being happy all the time is unrealistic. Having the same life circumstances as one's friends all the time is unrealistic. Starving children are shown in Africa to help raise money for their care. Is the only reason it is socially acceptable, is they generally do not speak on their behalf?

[Tiny]

Jun 25, 2015 0:01:59 GMT -5 Opti said:

Need more details, way more details. Finances, deaths & sicknesses in family, etc.

She is quite an onion. she's very dramatic about her father's and mother's deaths (15 and 10 years ago) she goes into 'mourning' on the days around their birth/anniversary/death days and other days. She's more than happy to tell anyone who politely and generically asks "How are you Doing?" that "My dad/mom died." - this is to waitresses, customer service people, the check out lady, anyone at all. Most of us just let her be while she's mourning... which in turn makes us 'bad friends'.

She cut all ties to her brothers/sister after her mom's death. As far as I can tell, while she never had a really good relationship with them - she's carrying a grudge against them because they didn't live up to her expectations for how they should have acted what they should of done when her mother was ill, in hospice, and then during the time immediately afterward. She will respond to anyone (stranger on the street kind of anyone) who mentions something they've done with 'family' with "At least you HAVE family".

At this point she's alone - no contact with immediate or distant family (she cut off the distant relatives years before her mother's death)

She had a breakdown at work about 3 years ago. AFter years of difficulties that to those of us in the business world seemed surmountable/typical "difficult" work situations - she's a grade school teacher. And I guess they live in a different universe. It's always been the "higher ups" and her co-workers that are psycho and/or won't help her. Even though she'd have a different "higher up" or the co-workers would change. We were sympathic to her plight (who hasn't had to deal this kind of stuff) and tried to give her some advice for dealing with these kinds of situations, but when the 5th/6th time it occurred... I suggested that maybe the problem wasn't the "Higher Up/coworker".
She took time off of work, was on an anti depressant and was working with a therapist for awhile. not sure if she still is or not.

Work is not going well. She is stressed because there's alot of change at work and she doesn't want to change (or maybe it's just that no one will "hand feed" her the change). She's dug her heels in and made what I would consider a Career Limiting Move, by refusing to learn, over the summer, how to use the new equipment she will have to use next year. I suspect the future is NOT going to get better.

She's had an unusual amount of car accidents over her life time (she's only had treatment for one of them when she was younger and was a passenger. She has been dealing with pain since that accident.  (for decades she has always protested that no one thinks she's in pain - but she is).  For the others she's never been hospitalized or gotten treatment. She did sue another driver a couple of years ago...) - She has said she's been diagnosed with PSTD - so driving is stressful, loud noises are stressful, seeing/hearing anything that might remind her of an accident is stressful. Being in a car is stressful. I think this is her anxiety issue.

As for money... that's a bit of a mystery. She definitely lives a lifestyle that's bigger than her income, despite her constant protestations that she is 'poor' and only make's a 'teachers salary' - but I think she may have some sort of settlement from the past car accident(s) and a couple of inheritances that are supplimenting her income. She makes less than I do, but seems to have more disposable income than I do... she bought a home that was 4.5 times her single income (had a bit of equity in the place she sold and probably used some inheritance money) but still has a mortgage. And was able to put another years salary into redoing bathrooms, kitchen, and other remodaling and buying high end designer furniture.

She often complains of not having any money. Yet, she'll go for a day at the hoity toity spa or purchas e some high end clothing/accessory/makeup. She lives in a more well to do area (although she swears it's not! - Um, the mainstreets in the area are lined with high end stores and car dealers -Lamborghini, Mercedes, BMW. Her neighbors have expensive cars (the 40K and up kind). The mainstreets in my area have a Kia dealer and used car lots and low end discount stores - my neighbors are driving under 30K cars).

I do think she's suffering a bit of not being able to keep up with the Jones (who are double incomes and where each earner is bringing in more than she is). I think she feels 'poor' because of her surroundings.

So, she's got alot of stuff going on in her head that I know of.

I certainly can't fix her problems (not my monkeys, not my circus ) - but I thought maybe a bit of a distraction might ease the mental rut she's in or maybe help her start moving out of one...

I'm trying to reach out more to her since every time we talk she says things that lead me to believe she'd like to 'get out more' or 'do things'. I could be misinterpreting her protestations of "I wish I was doing X like you are" or "I haven't gone/done anything on a weekend in months" I know now she's had an irreconcilable falling out with a friend she was very tight with - but who wasn't part of "our group" of friends. That happened about a year ago. Her world seems to be getting smaller and smaller.

 

You are probably misinterpreting her protestations which are likely jealousy. Is she jealous of you because she can not afford to do these things, thinks she can not, option 432?

I have to admit my first response to the things that she says was that she was jealous - but she's got WAY more stuff and WAY nicer stuff than I will ever have - on a smaller income. She apparently doesn't see it that way.

[Lizard Queen]

I've been dealing with depression from probably the age of 10, but I was always pretty chill about dealing with things.  Last year, I suspected that I was developing PTSD, after finding my mom falling a lot, and then almost dying twice. I felt on edge all of the time--not chill at all any more.  During this time, my husband was starting to have extreme reactions to things and was diagnosed with anxiety.  (He had a job that he hated, and then lost that job.  Plus, I'm sure dealing with me hasn't helped--AT ALL.)  I sent him a text a few months when I was a little annoyed with him, and he said, "thanks for the virtual slap in the face".  WTF  Gradually, I realized that was exactly like how I felt during one class I was taking last year.  I had been able to get straight A's until then (except for one class with a disaster of a group project), but couldn't find the magic formula for this professor, and kept feeling like I was getting slapped around by her.

So, with that background presented, I will try to extrapolate on my personal observations on this.  It is from feeling of having little control over your life and to do what you want with it.  It's a very helpless/trapped feeling.  So much of regular life sucks, that you count on other things to be at least neutral/under control.  When they aren't, it is just too much, because you're already at the limit of what you can deal with.  Depression results in withdrawing/retreating further from potential BS.  Anxiety results is lashing out inappropriately.

What can you maybe do to help it?  Probably try to focus on things that are within your control that will make life better.  For me, that would probably involve exercising and getting my house in order.  Maybe getting back into learning to play the guitar too.  I may not be able to have the career I want (and the income that comes with it), or a mom that I don't have to worry about all the time, but I can probably take advantage of this time better than I am.  (The anxiety makes it really hard to concentrate on things like organization.)  My situation with my mom (and anxiety) makes it difficult to make commitments ahead of time, or that take up big chunks of time, so I go out and do things more casually.  I signed my son up for a couple of activities this summer, since I can do that much for him at least.  That's something that might have been too hard to accomplish logistically if I were working at a career job.  


...just trying to find ways to make lemonade out of the lemons. I can't do what I really want, but what can I do that I'd also like to do?Concentrate on short, simple things that don't require a lot of commitment. 

[Tiny]

Jun 25, 2015 1:01:34 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I think depression can be comorbid with other issues. In my experience depression was comorbid with a likely personality disorder.
It's hard to tease out which issue might be causing the difference in perception vs reality.

This interests me:
I'm trying to reach out more to her since every time we talk she says things that lead me to believe she'd like to 'get out more' or 'do things'. I could be misinterpreting her protestations of "I wish I was doing X like you are" or "I haven't gone/done anything on a weekend in months"

I would not necessarily take these statements to mean she wants to get out more. I was told "I haven't done abc" in x amount of years, and it was meant for me to feel bad for the other person or have the other person try to make me feel guilty.

Same thing with "I wish I was doing.." Such statements were not statements of "I want to change my behavior, I just don't know how." They are attempts to make me feel poorly.

What you point out has been my first response as well... that she's jealous of me (um, ok...) or bitter about her own circumstance (which aren't really all that bad - they are way nicer than mine).       My first reaction to some of her statements and actions was that she was being manipulative... but I don't really see 'why' - I couldn't figure out what she achieves from it... I'm use to the idea about manipulating others - we all do it to help us get things done at work for example but that's a 'kind hearted' not hurting anyone kind of manipulation (or behavior change).

I'm not sure if my friend is stuck in a bit of a "self fulfilling prophecy" cycle... that her friends aren't really friends (from the falling out with her other close friend).

Just wanted to run this past people with more experience/life skills/social skills than I do. And for possible ways to get past my friend's barriers. I'm sure she's in there somewhere...

[Tiny]

Jun 25, 2015 7:20:48 GMT -5 mamasita99 said:

My mom has lived with depression most of her adult life, after the kids left the house she finally started getting treatment. I know that her perception of the environment is pretty skewed, towards negative. It's how her brain is wired. I picture stimuli entering the brain and then train tracks taking the stimuli to another stop to react. Her brain has deep tracks leading to negative reactions (feeling guilt, shame, sadness, or assuming bad things). The stimuli could have resulted in realistic thoughts, or positive thoughts, but her brain is so used to travelling to the negative thoughts because those tracks are well worn and deep.

I don't know if that explanation makes sense, but I deal with anxiety, and the process is the same. Visualizing my own brain making choices on how to respond to stimuli helps me become more aware of unrealistic thoughts and how I can choose to turn those thoughts onto different paths.

YEs, her negative thoughts/reactions have spilled over into 'general life'.  She's said, what I thought were inappropriate, rude  or just TMI negative stuff to strangers - to waitresses, check out people, someone who was being helpful, even to an old woman navigating thru a crowd with her wheelchair bound husband.    She seems to be unaware that it's negative or inappropriate or that it comes off as rude.

She also is quick to take offense at the generic-polite things strangers say (waitresses, check out people, someone who was being helpful,) to her.  

This is the extreme stuff to 'everyday' stuff that baffles me.   And started to make me wonder if she was even aware that people's sometime strained reactions to her - where because of her over the top reaction to them. 

FWIW:  I've got plenty of negative talk going on in my head... around and around it goes.  I've been working on restraining, stopping, re-writing some of my internal scripts and it ain't easy.  I can't imagine how hard/bewildering it might be with an added on layer of depression or anxiety (I have panic attacks not exactly the same thing...  but, I know they are scary and feel uncontrolable and that they can become a self repeating cycle of awfulness)

[giramomma]

Jun 25, 2015 10:42:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 25, 2015 1:01:34 GMT -5 giramomma said:

How do you know it was intended for you to feel bad for the other person(if so, is that so awful?) or make you feel poorly? You feel poorly (or not) based on how you choose to view anyone's communications with you.

Because my parent has not changed at all. Because the behavior has been same for my entire lifetime. Because there's always an ulterior motive for everything that is said. Because everything I do or say is judged.

Because 4 different therapists over a decade have told me that I'm really OK; that it's not me.

Because statements really aren't about money. I grew up middle class. The way one of my parents went on about our finances, I thought we were one paycheck away from the losing the house.  When I started my first job, I could not go grocery shopping without crying because I was spending money.

The truth, in terms of money, is my parents had choices. Not ONCE was it ever framed, "we have choices on how we spend our money. Other people choose to buy new furniture every 7 years. We would rather spend the money on you while being a one income family, and therefore we've only owned two couches in 30 years of marriage.

It was "I wish we could buy a couch ever 7 years like others can. Must be soo nice (dripping with sarcasm) that others don't have to continually make due just like I have to." Then it would launch into some sort of discussion about how my other parent was a failure because there wasn't the money to buy said furniture.

I've found that my children, starting at about age 5, understand that it's a choice on how we use our money. And, my husband/kids know better than to think I'm a failure (or call me a failure behind my back) because I don't make enough money to buy them everything to keep up.

[Tiny]

Jun 25, 2015 11:10:23 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

 
 
...just trying to find ways to make lemonade out of the lemons. I can't do what I really want, but what can I do that I'd also like to do?Concentrate on short, simple things that don't require a lot of commitment. 

I'm reading the "Happiness Project" by Gretchen Rubin.    The book is NOT about dealing with depression - rather it's about the journey the Author took because while she has so many good things in her life (husband, kids, job, etc) she didn't feel she was as happy as she should be.  This made her wonder about what 'happiness' was and how you could get more of it.   

I'm only a few chapters in (it's an easy read and isn't really in the format of "self help") but I suspect that the being mindful of the small, simple, everyday things is what ultimately creates a foundation for greater life satisfaction/contentment/happiness.
And that this foundation helps maintain some stability when times get dark,  as they most certainly will.   No one expects to be 'happy' 7/24. 

[Lizard Queen]

Jun 25, 2015 11:07:54 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jun 25, 2015 0:01:59 GMT -5 Opti said:

She had a breakdown at work about 3 years ago. AFter years of difficulties that to those of us in the business world seemed surmountable/typical "difficult" work situations - she's a grade school teacher. And I guess they live in a different universe. It's always been the "higher ups" and her co-workers that are psycho and/or won't help her. Even though she'd have a different "higher up" or the co-workers would change. We were sympathic to her plight (who hasn't had to deal this kind of stuff) and tried to give her some advice for dealing with these kinds of situations, but when the 5th/6th time it occurred... I suggested that maybe the problem wasn't the "Higher Up/coworker".
She took time off of work, was on an anti depressant and was working with a therapist for awhile. not sure if she still is or not.

Work is not going well. She is stressed because there's alot of change at work and she doesn't want to change (or maybe it's just that no one will "hand feed" her the change). She's dug her heels in and made what I would consider a Career Limiting Move, by refusing to learn, over the summer, how to use the new equipment she will have to use next year. I suspect the future is NOT going to get better.

In one of his blog posts, MMM talked about the concept of Tiresome Bullshit that you have to deal with in a corporate job.  From what I hear/read from teachers, there's a whole lot of Tiresome Bullshit that they have to deal with all of the time in teaching.  I think that, as you get older, the ability to deal with TB diminishes.  Plus, I have a theory like allergies and "cups".  People have different sized cups that they can fill to deal with allergies, and once it's full they react.  I think it's the same with TB.    So, I'm sure she could find better coping mechanisms, but her TB cup is probably already full.  She needs to find ways to empty it out from time to time.

[Tiny]

So, when my friend does say something along the lines of "I wish i could do X "  or  "Atleast you have family" to me based on something I've done or said about my family... what can I do to defuse this?   Up to this point, it's been a conversation stopper.

I do ASK her what she's upto (usually "nothing" or "getting by").  She'll ask what I'm up to, and I'm  finding that I'm avoiding  mentioning  family stuff to my friend because I don't know how to respond to what I percieve as her bitterness.    I'm not married but I do keep up with my siblings and their kids - and I have other friends with kids and I sometimes talk about stuff I've done with them.
 
I'm finding I'm also reluctant to mention stuff I'm doing in general.   

What's a good way to turn around or deflect the "I wish I could do X" or the "Atleast you have family".   

I've kind of considered replying to the "Atleast you have family" with "I'm sorry you don't speak to your family"  but, I'm not sure how that will go over.  

[giramomma]

Jun 25, 2015 11:52:22 GMT -5 Tiny said:

So, when my friend does say something along the lines of "I wish i could do X "  or  "Atleast you have family" to me based on something I've done or said about my family... what can I do to defuse this?   Up to this point, it's been a conversation stopper.

I do ASK her what she's upto (usually "nothing" or "getting by").  She'll ask what I'm up to, and I'm  finding that I'm avoiding  mentioning  family stuff to my friend because I don't know how to respond to what I percieve as her bitterness.    I'm not married but I do keep up with my siblings and their kids - and I have other friends with kids and I sometimes talk about stuff I've done with them.
 
I'm finding I'm also reluctant to mention stuff I'm doing in general.   

What's a good way to turn around or deflect the "I wish I could do X" or the "Atleast you have family".   

I've kind of considered replying to the "Atleast you have family" with "I'm sorry you don't speak to your family"  but, I'm not sure how that will go over. 

I keep a list of "safe" topics. I also try to keep the conversation off of me. 

[gs11rmb]

Tiny - you are a better person than I am - why on earth are you friends with this woman?  She sounds absolutely awful to be around.  I am not suggesting abandoning a dear friend who is suffering, I just can't understand why you even consider this woman a friend in the first place.

Just reading about her is mentally draining!

[Tiny]

Jun 25, 2015 12:25:07 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Tiny - you are a better person than I am - why on earth are you friends with this woman?  She sounds absolutely awful to be around.  I am not suggesting abandoning a dear friend who is suffering, I just can't understand why you even consider this woman a friend in the first place.

Just reading about her is mentally draining!

LOL!  You are just getting the "ugly" photos of her here.  

We've been friends for a good 30 years or so...  It's only been the last 5 or 6 that she's gotten to the state she's in now.   I know that somewhere 'inside' where she is now - is a person:

who's creative and enjoys doing creative things with other people (being in a book club, or sitting around yakking while doing some craft - like knit or crochet, or doing a 'stone soup' dinner - puzzling out what we could create from what's in our fridges/cupboards)   

who's always got an eye out for something she could use in the classroom  and then maybe willing to talk about how she'd use it. 

who's got a great sense of fashion and color and is up to date on what the stars/celebrities are doing - but more along the lines of the Positive things they have been doing not all the negative stuff.

who's interested in trying out something new or taking in a street faire/fest/concert in the park.

who's always been willing to lend a hand with stuff (she'll volunteer or if asked will do what she can).

who, while not really into doing physical stuff - would atleast tag along to a Tai Chi or Yoga class  OR would be willing to go for a short walk after dinner rather than sitting around eating/drinking more.  (We're old it's important to MOVE more )

who would be busy during the summer months persueing her personal interests.

Who use to look forward to stuff that was coming up on the calendar or in the next year.


She wasn't always a negative person.  I know now, that for a few years she may have just been  'going thru the motions' of being OK... I'm just worried that she's heading towards a bad mental place that might not be easy to get out of.  

[Shooby]

Jun 25, 2015 12:25:07 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Tiny - you are a better person than I am - why on earth are you friends with this woman?  She sounds absolutely awful to be around.  I am not suggesting abandoning a dear friend who is suffering, I just can't understand why you even consider this woman a friend in the first place.

Just reading about her is mentally draining!

 A true friend walks in while the rest of the world is walking out.   You aren't going to abandon your friend going through a rough time.
  Doesn't mean you can't set boundaries but does someone cease to be your friend if they are going through a rough spell?

[Shooby]

Jun 25, 2015 13:40:30 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jun 25, 2015 12:25:07 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Tiny - you are a better person than I am - why on earth are you friends with this woman?  She sounds absolutely awful to be around.  I am not suggesting abandoning a dear friend who is suffering, I just can't understand why you even consider this woman a friend in the first place.

Just reading about her is mentally draining!

LOL!  You are just getting the "ugly" photos of her here.  

We've been friends for a good 30 years or so...  It's only been the last 5 or 6 that she's gotten to the state she's in now.   I know that somewhere 'inside' where she is now - is a person:

who's creative and enjoys doing creative things with other people (being in a book club, or sitting around yakking while doing some craft - like knit or crochet, or doing a 'stone soup' dinner - puzzling out what we could create from what's in our fridges/cupboards)   

who's always got an eye out for something she could use in the classroom  and then maybe willing to talk about how she'd use it. 

who's got a great sense of fashion and color and is up to date on what the stars/celebrities are doing - but more along the lines of the Positive things they have been doing not all the negative stuff.

who's interested in trying out something new or taking in a street faire/fest/concert in the park.

who's always been willing to lend a hand with stuff (she'll volunteer or if asked will do what she can).

who, while not really into doing physical stuff - would atleast tag along to a Tai Chi or Yoga class  OR would be willing to go for a short walk after dinner rather than sitting around eating/drinking more.  (We're old it's important to MOVE more )

who would be busy during the summer months persueing her personal interests.

Who use to look forward to stuff that was coming up on the calendar or in the next year.


She wasn't always a negative person.  I know now, that for a few years she may have just been  'going thru the motions' of being OK... I'm just worried that she's heading towards a bad mental place that might not be easy to get out of.  

Since she wasn't always this way, then it does sound like depression or another issue.  Has she had a medical exam to rule out thyroid, hormonal issues, Lyme's disease, etc?  If so, then has she considered counseling or going to a pastor or whatever and trying to get some help with emotional/ mental issues?

[gs11rmb]

Jun 25, 2015 13:40:30 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jun 25, 2015 12:25:07 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Tiny - you are a better person than I am - why on earth are you friends with this woman?  She sounds absolutely awful to be around.  I am not suggesting abandoning a dear friend who is suffering, I just can't understand why you even consider this woman a friend in the first place.

Just reading about her is mentally draining!

LOL!  You are just getting the "ugly" photos of her here.  

We've been friends for a good 30 years or so...  It's only been the last 5 or 6 that she's gotten to the state she's in now.   I know that somewhere 'inside' where she is now - is a person:

who's creative and enjoys doing creative things with other people (being in a book club, or sitting around yakking while doing some craft - like knit or crochet, or doing a 'stone soup' dinner - puzzling out what we could create from what's in our fridges/cupboards)   

who's always got an eye out for something she could use in the classroom  and then maybe willing to talk about how she'd use it. 

who's got a great sense of fashion and color and is up to date on what the stars/celebrities are doing - but more along the lines of the Positive things they have been doing not all the negative stuff.

who's interested in trying out something new or taking in a street faire/fest/concert in the park.

who's always been willing to lend a hand with stuff (she'll volunteer or if asked will do what she can).

who, while not really into doing physical stuff - would atleast tag along to a Tai Chi or Yoga class  OR would be willing to go for a short walk after dinner rather than sitting around eating/drinking more.  (We're old it's important to MOVE more )

who would be busy during the summer months persueing her personal interests.

Who use to look forward to stuff that was coming up on the calendar or in the next year.


She wasn't always a negative person.  I know now, that for a few years she may have just been  'going thru the motions' of being OK... I'm just worried that she's heading towards a bad mental place that might not be easy to get out of.  

Well, I'm glad to see she has some good points and at one time she was a truly wonderful friend. It is no wonder you are sticking by her and trying to help her get better. Hope things improve for her soon.

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2015 23:39:26 GMT -5 Tiny said:

...

I'm wondering if when you are depressed or anxious if on some level you are aware that your perceptions don't match reality?

...    

Is depression/anxiety like that?  Is there some awareness that perception doesn't match reality? 

I think depression is like wearing sunglasses inside.  Everything looks darker.  I knew it was a false perception, but I couldn't really see the real one the way it really was.  Just a darker image of it.  If that makes sense.

[Tiny]

Thanks, you've all giving me some good stuff to think about.   

I'm much better able to deal with someone who I feel is being 'difficult' because they have a 'reason' versus someone who's just being Evil.   I've dealt with Evil  people who found it entertaining/amusing  to be vindictive, or  to 'push buttons' or to be manipulative or who needed an emotional  'punching bag'  and I truely don't think my friend has become Evil.   I think she's just in an unhappy place.  

I will broach the subject of if she's still seeing a therapist or on medication - especially since she seems more unhappy/bitter/negative than previously.   She's had alot of upheaval in the last year (the friend falling out and work stress) so maybe she doesn't realize that maybe it's time to go in for "tune up" <-- attempt at humor 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

One more suggestion:  how about giving her a loving reality check?

Show her how much better she has it than 95% of the rest of the women in the world. 

Seriously, there are women in the Sudan being raped as they travel miles away from home in an often-fruitless search for brush to use to build a cooking fire.

Or, the women trapped in the sex slave trade in Southeast Asia who will never escape alive.

Or, the woman in Darfur holding her last surviving child as it dies from starvation.

Remind her that there are girls and women all over the world who are trapped in arranged marriages to strangers who abuse them and hold them in virtual solitary confinement.

Ask her who has it worse: her, or the Muslim woman who must wear a head to toe burqa in searing heat and can only leave her home -- no matter the reason -- in the company of a male family member (who likely is doing so reluctantly because women's needs are not a priority)?

Can your friend go to the doctor whenever she wants -- even when it's not a life-or-death situation -- and reliably expect competent, complete, care in a clean facility with running water?

Does she have ready access to healthy food, clean water, safe living quarters, and clean air to breathe?

You see where I am going with this.  

Your friend might be clinically depressed and need some professional help to find joy in her life again (because there IS great joy in even the smallest things in life IF one is open to finding it).

But, she might also simply need a new perspective from which to view her life.  None of us has everything we want.  But, most of us have, or have access to, much of what we need -- a fact we sometimes need to remember.  We all need a reality check from time to time.  The fortunate among us get one when we need it.

[Deleted]

Please watch Andrew Soloman's TED talk on depression. Best description of my life I have ever seen.

I describe depression as making your life similar to an onion.

The middle, fundamental part is your basic ability to live. Get up in the morning, stumble to the couch, go to bed, maybe brush your teeth, maybe shower.

Adding one more layer of less depression - you get to easily shower and brush your teeth. You might even cook a meal.

One more layer added, through better mental health, medication, etc... you finally feel like actually doing something. Going to the grocery store becomes much less of an overwhelming obstacle and you finally go.

When you onion is complete, and your mental health is good, things like artistic ability, creative thought, and even some boredom show up. For me, when I want to create or I feel bored, I know my mental health is about as good as it gets and I need to enjoy it while it is around.

---

I've unfortunately visited what I call the dark place. I am writing a book about my experience... In that mental place, all I wanted to do was die. Nothing else was tolerable. The feeling was 1000000% pure misery and incompatible with life.

I now tell people, when people kill themselves, they don't have the mental ability to care about their family, friends, and anything else. The feeling is so overwhelming and horrible you just want it to leave. I loaded a gun. It was BAD. Robin Williams - same feeling, I would bet. 

--
That being said, yes, you do realize you are not being "normal."  And, that just adds to the problem. People who do not suffer from depression seem to think you can think or exercise yourself out of it. Um, no. No easier can you chop off your hand and grow it back than you can "fix" your own mental health with happy thoughts.

I told my doctor a while back that the worse thing is I remember clearly what motivation and other positive emotions were like. I no longer have them. But, I remember. And, that makes it worse, IMHO. It's similar to being able to hear or see all of your life, and then it isn't possible anymore. You know what you are missing but you can't find it. And, everyone in life tells you to just "smile more and exercise" as if that fixes it. Not.

[Deleted]

Pat, I often think of you and wish I lived closer and could help you find some respite. 24/7 caregiving is a killer in it's own way.