NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 21, 2015 17:51:23 GMT -5
I do not understand why people think I am for letting him get away with drunk driving. I suggested that he be made to quit drinking and that him not drinking is verified at his expense. I also suggested or implied, (certainly think) that if he fails at the verification that he go to jail. There are many victims to drunk driving. First and foremost are the people who are put at risk by drunk drivers. Another set of victims is the family of drunk drivers. It was mentioned above that the average cost of a 1st dui is $10,000. That money comes out of the family budget. Now it is certainly his fault that his family is suffering for this. Still his children, if he has any, are not to blame. If he goes to jail for 2 years, which is what others at work are saying, then that most likely changes his children from being middle class to poor. He makes ~$65,000. Again, it is his fault, but the children who go to poverty are not to blame. Another set of victims is taxpayers. If he goes to jail for two year, someone has to pay for that. I suggested he pay for his verification and other expenses. Lastly, if he fails and drinks, I think he should go to jail. Many have said he had 4 previous chances, which is true. But none of those, as far as I know forced him to quit drinking and verified that he did. If punishment is required then maybe a halfway house on weekends. I am not really suggesting this is a perfect answer, but I wanted a discussion on other possible solutions to the problem of DUIs besides jail time and punishment. Sometimes I think people propose harsh remedies to show they recognize the problem is serious. I dont think punishment is always the answer to every bad choice, even serious bad choices. Well, why don't you make him stop? Take him to AA meetings, therapy, see that he gets the medications that are used in conjunction with stopping drinking, make sure he doesn't get behind the wheel and volunteer to drive him when needed. He really doesn't give a shit what happens to his kids, taxpayers, others on the road - all he cares about is where his next drink will be coming from.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 21, 2015 17:56:37 GMT -5
In order to "force" someone with multiple DUIs to give up drinking, we'd have to invent something we could implant in their abdominal cavity (illegal to remove - doctor will lose his right to practice) that turned them bright green all over and caused them to dry-heave for 3 hours minimum with the first taste of alcohol. The bright green color would alert anyone who saw the jerk that the police need to be called. The up-chucking is just to get the darned point across. Even with something that drastic, there are those who would do it anyway. I've treated waaaay to many of this type. It's sad, it's ugly, and it's darned hard to beat. There just isn't any way you can "make" someone do something.
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Deleted
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Jun 21, 2015 17:57:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 17:57:24 GMT -5
I do not understand why people think I am for letting him get away with drunk driving. I suggested that he be made to quit drinking and that him not drinking is verified at his expense. I also suggested or implied, (certainly think) that if he fails at the verification that he go to jail. I'll bet anything a condition of his probation was NO DRINKING, NO BARS, NO EVEN BEING AROUND PEOPLE THAT ARE INTOXICATED and it could have been up to a 4 years probation on the first offense (but more likely two). It is really hard to enforce this, usually you only get charged with violation of probation if you're in trouble for something else and happen to be drinking or at a bar when it happens. Seriously, it's really hard to babysit everyone. The probation officers and courts are overwhelmed. Have him go to a police station twice a day and blow into a breathalyzer. Someone could easily invent some kind of diabetic tester type thing that checks for alcohol that keeps track of date and time of test (just guessing on whether someone could invent that). Take hair samples and have them tested once a week. We have all kinds of technology to spy on people now. Jail costs are (again just guessing) over $20,000 a year, so make him pay for some of the testing and the state pay for some of it, if that needs to be the case. Though I bet with capitalism we could get verifiable tests for less then a hundred a week
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 21, 2015 17:58:22 GMT -5
Wait...you can still drive? Here, your car gets impounded and you lose your licence for a year, minimum. When you get it back, it must be equipped with a breathalyzer in order for the car to start. Do it repeatedly, and you lose it forever. Anyway, what if it's a drinking husband driving his wife's car or a kid driving a parents' car? Is it fair to those people to have a "Hey, look at me! I'm a drunk!" licence plate? .
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 21, 2015 17:58:48 GMT -5
How's he going to get the the police station? Drive?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:01:10 GMT -5
I'll bet anything a condition of his probation was NO DRINKING, NO BARS, NO EVEN BEING AROUND PEOPLE THAT ARE INTOXICATED and it could have been up to a 4 years probation on the first offense (but more likely two). It is really hard to enforce this, usually you only get charged with violation of probation if you're in trouble for something else and happen to be drinking or at a bar when it happens. Seriously, it's really hard to babysit everyone. The probation officers and courts are overwhelmed. Have him go to a police station twice a day and blow into a breathalyzer. Someone could easily invent some kind of diabetic tester type thing that checks for alcohol that keeps track of date and time of test (just guessing on whether someone could invent that). Take hair samples and have them tested once a week. We have all kinds of technology to spy on people now. Jail costs are (again just guessing) over $20,000 a year, so make him pay for some of the testing and the state pay for some of it, if that needs to be the case. Though I bet with capitalism we could get verifiable tests for less then a hundred a week I still think you're not grasping how much of a PIA this would be to implement and enforce. And they make jail inmates pay for their time in MN. Easier to lock up the dumb ass that doesn't get it after 4 DUIs so he doesn't kill someone. He had enough wake up calls.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 21, 2015 18:08:12 GMT -5
.....
What do you think would be "fair"? Should he just be allowed to keep getting away with it until he actually manages to kill someone?
I think often there is no "fair" solution, if by "fair" you mean the scales are balanced. I think a good solution is to force him as best we can to quit drinking. If that proves unworkable then jail. I gave my thoughts on how to force him in other posts. What do you think is fair for his children if he has any? That he go to jail for 2 years or that he be forced to give up alcohol? Certainly he is to blame for the predicament his children are in, but if society can mitigate that are little to no cost, then I think we should. Why does the solution I asked about not do that? He doesn't need a nanny; he needs character. "Society" can't do that for him. If he never has to face the consequences of his actions, he will never change, and the result will very likely be catastrophic for someone, possibly one of his children, certainly someone else's loved one. "Society" isn't responsible for his children, he is. He has always had the means to ensure that they don't suffer for his bad behavior, yet he chooses to continue to drink and drive. He knows the consequences of getting caught again, yet he continues to drink and drive. How is some babysitting program going to change that? Coddling him won't change that, and it will not come at "no cost". He's had ample opportunity to change his behavior and has decided that his hobby is more important than other people's lives. It is long past time for some real consequences. if his kids hate him for it, it's no more than he deserves. Better that than someone else's children hating him for killing their parent.
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Deleted
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Jun 21, 2015 18:08:37 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:08:37 GMT -5
I still think you're not grasping how much of a PIA this would be to implement and enforce. Probably not. Can you explain why? What is the downside of going to a police station twice a day and blowing into a breathalyzer? It has to be cheaper then jail 24/7. Can they not make some kind of breathalyzer that records time and verifies the person blowing into it? Maybe through internet connection and skype. Some pay services sees the person blowing and sees his/her fingerprint in real time while blowing into breathalyzer. Again that would have to be cheaper then jail. Do you worry about kids losing a parent to jail for 2 years, even if parent is at fault and deserves it? Are you interested in mitigating that even if my idea is unworkable? Thank you for the responses.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 21, 2015 18:08:59 GMT -5
"I suggested that he be made to quit drinking"...after DUI #1
"I suggested that he be made to quit drinking"...after DUI #2
"I suggested that he be made to quit drinking"...after DUI #3
"I suggested that he be made to quit drinking"...after DUI #4
"I suggested that he be made to quit drinking"...after DUI #5
"I suggested that he be made to quit drinking"...
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Deleted
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DUI's
Jun 21, 2015 18:11:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:11:02 GMT -5
I think often there is no "fair" solution, if by "fair" you mean the scales are balanced. I think a good solution is to force him as best we can to quit drinking. If that proves unworkable then jail. I gave my thoughts on how to force him in other posts. What do you think is fair for his children if he has any? That he go to jail for 2 years or that he be forced to give up alcohol? Certainly he is to blame for the predicament his children are in, but if society can mitigate that are little to no cost, then I think we should. Why does the solution I asked about not do that? He doesn't need a nanny; he needs character. "Society" can't do that for him. If he never has to face the consequences of his actions, he will never change, and the result will very likely be catastrophic for someone, possibly one of his children, certainly someone else's loved one. "Society" isn't responsible for his children, he is. He has always had the means to ensure that they don't suffer for his bad behavior, yet he chooses to continue to drink and drive. He knows the consequences of getting caught again, yet he continues to drink and drive. How is some babysitting program going to change that? Coddling him won't change that, and it will not come at "no cost". He's had ample opportunity to change his behavior and has decided that his hobby is more important than other people's lives. It is long past time for some real consequences. if his kids hate him for it, it's no more than he deserves. Better that than someone else's children hating him for killing their parent. Man oh man, you don't like drunk drivers. I can see that. What an outstanding sense of justice you have.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 21, 2015 18:15:18 GMT -5
Well, I said it once and I'll say it again -WHY don't YOU make him stop? After all it is as simple as telling him he should without going to jail, or being held responsible for his actions, etc
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:16:39 GMT -5
My neighbor's 19 year old was driving when a drunk driver rammed her. Almost killed her. Did kill her 14 yr old sister and another 14 year old in the car.
I guess I don't understand your view for leniency/sympathy for a man who has proven time and again he has no respect for the lives around him...
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 21, 2015 18:17:01 GMT -5
He doesn't need a nanny; he needs character. "Society" can't do that for him. If he never has to face the consequences of his actions, he will never change, and the result will very likely be catastrophic for someone, possibly one of his children, certainly someone else's loved one. "Society" isn't responsible for his children, he is. He has always had the means to ensure that they don't suffer for his bad behavior, yet he chooses to continue to drink and drive. He knows the consequences of getting caught again, yet he continues to drink and drive. How is some babysitting program going to change that? Coddling him won't change that, and it will not come at "no cost". He's had ample opportunity to change his behavior and has decided that his hobby is more important than other people's lives. It is long past time for some real consequences. if his kids hate him for it, it's no more than he deserves. Better that than someone else's children hating him for killing their parent. Man oh man, you don't like drunk drivers. I can see that. What an outstanding sense of justice you have. Why on earth should I or anyone else "like" drunk drivers? Of course I don't "like" someone who makes a conscious choice to endanger the lives of anyone and everyone who might have the bad luck to be on the road with them. They aren't worthy of anyone's admiration. I don't understand why you want to keep enabling them until they kill someone. Their behavior isn't just some sort of ill fortune. It is a conscious choice. They choose to endanger other people. The rest of us deserve some consideration. They do not.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 21, 2015 18:17:15 GMT -5
I'm far more worried about kids losing a parent FOREVER, due to some drunk arsehole.
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Deleted
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Jun 21, 2015 18:20:53 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:20:53 GMT -5
Man oh man, you don't like drunk drivers. I can see that. What an outstanding sense of justice you have. Why on earth should I or anyone else "like" drunk drivers? Of course I don't "like" someone who makes a conscious choice to endanger the lives of anyone and everyone who might have the bad luck to be on the road with them. They aren't worthy of anyone's admiration. I don't understand why you want to keep enabling them until they kill someone. Their behavior isn't just some sort of ill fortune. It is a conscious choice. They choose to endanger other people. The rest of us deserve some consideration. They do not. You cannot find one post where I said I want to enable drunk drivers. I asked about a possible different solution for dealing with them. Being a hard ass is not the only way to address problems. Please apologize for saying I want to enable drunk drivers until they kill someone.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 21, 2015 18:22:30 GMT -5
I'm far more worried about kids losing a parent FOREVER, due to some drunk arsehole. And I'm thinking HIS kids may be better off with him out of the house for two years. It's not like he's an outstanding influence just waiting to happen. And I also agree with your post!!
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 21, 2015 18:26:13 GMT -5
Why on earth should I or anyone else "like" drunk drivers? Of course I don't "like" someone who makes a conscious choice to endanger the lives of anyone and everyone who might have the bad luck to be on the road with them. They aren't worthy of anyone's admiration. I don't understand why you want to keep enabling them until they kill someone. Their behavior isn't just some sort of ill fortune. It is a conscious choice. They choose to endanger other people. The rest of us deserve some consideration. They do not. You cannot find one post where I said I want to enable drunk drivers. I asked about a possible different solution for dealing with them. Being a hard ass is not the only way to address problems. Please apologize for saying I want to enable drunk drivers until they kill someone. If there are no real consequences, they will continue their behavior until they kill someone. Creating some elaborate bureaucracy to babysit them isn't going to stop their behavior. It will enable them to continue their behavior with some slight inconvenience.
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Deleted
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Jun 21, 2015 18:32:18 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:32:18 GMT -5
You cannot find one post where I said I want to enable drunk drivers. I asked about a possible different solution for dealing with them. Being a hard ass is not the only way to address problems. Please apologize for saying I want to enable drunk drivers until they kill someone. If there are no real consequences, they will continue their behavior until they kill someone. Creating some elaborate bureaucracy to babysit them isn't going to stop their behavior. It will enable them to continue their behavior with some slight inconvenience. Your post addresses nothing I asked about. Not one thing. Being forced to not drink is a real consequence, less severe then jail, but none the less real. Jail is more elaborate bureaucracy then taking breathalyzer tests on a regular basis. If you dont drink you do not drink and drive. If you do drink in my suggestion, you go to jail either one stops the behavior. It does not enable them to continue their behavior. I asked about a different solution to DUIs other then jail. You misrepresented what I asked about completely and almost certainly on purpose.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:33:34 GMT -5
It's not like he just paid a fine the first four times. Any intervention thus far has been ineffective. Two years off the streets and sober is the next step.
He hasn't stopped. He has continued the behavior...
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Artemis Windsong
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Jun 21, 2015 18:38:51 GMT -5
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Jun 21, 2015 18:38:51 GMT -5
In my town, the people with DUIs and accidents caused by them are required to go to the police station for a breath test twice a day. The severe ones have breathlizers in the car where it won't start if alcohol registers. They just get a kid to blow into it and off they go.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 21, 2015 18:39:10 GMT -5
If there are no real consequences, they will continue their behavior until they kill someone. Creating some elaborate bureaucracy to babysit them isn't going to stop their behavior. It will enable them to continue their behavior with some slight inconvenience. Your post addresses nothing I asked about. Not one thing. Being forced to not drink is a real consequence, less severe then jail, but none the less real. Jail is more elaborate bureaucracy then taking breathalyzer tests on a regular basis. If you dont drink you do not drink and drive. If you do drink in my suggestion, you go to jail either one stops the behavior. It does not enable them to continue their behavior. I asked about a different solution to DUIs other then jail. You misrepresented what I asked about completely and almost certainly on purpose. You cannot force anyone to be sober. If they want to continue drinking, they will. If they want to drink and drive, they will.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 21, 2015 18:44:23 GMT -5
Man oh man, you don't like drunk drivers. I can see that. What an outstanding sense of justice you have. Why on earth should I or anyone else "like" drunk drivers? Of course I don't "like" someone who makes a conscious choice to endanger the lives of anyone and everyone who might have the bad luck to be on the road with them. They aren't worthy of anyone's admiration. I don't understand why you want to keep enabling them until they kill someone. Their behavior isn't just some sort of ill fortune. It is a conscious choice. They choose to endanger other people. The rest of us deserve some consideration. They do not. I've thought and I've thought. I can't come up with anyone I know, even faintly, who likes drunk drivers. Not one person.
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hopefloats
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DUI's
Jun 21, 2015 18:48:32 GMT -5
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Post by hopefloats on Jun 21, 2015 18:48:32 GMT -5
I have first hand experience and lose sleep many of nights. You cannot control anyone's actions. Sure you can offer to pick them up, express your displeasure, visit them in jail, but at the end of the night, they will do what they want.
The legal fees cover the attorneys time. Then you have the cost of alcohol classes, increased insurance, bail, court costs, fines, etc.
Jail does not work either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 18:54:18 GMT -5
I only saw my father once as an adult before he died. We were not close. My brother was with me and they were talking about my brother's license being suspended for tickets. Our father talked about how he didn't have a license for some years because of DUI's and that it cost him several thousand dollars when he finally got himself together and got it back. His exact words were that it was easier to give up driving than it was to give up drinking.
He had stopped drinking by the time that conversation took place, but I'm pretty sure it didn't happen until he was ready and willing to make it happen. To me, his words showed just how powerful the addiction is. It is not easy to get around in our area if you don't drive.
I'm familiar with alcoholics. The only way to make them stop drinking before they're ready to stop is to lock them somewhere where they have no access to alcohol or drugs. And even with that, they'll often start drinking again when they're free. Revoking their licenses doesn't mean they won't keep driving drunk. A lot of them will keep driving and driving drunk even with a revoked license.
I know someone right now that just got his licence back from a DUI in another state. He still drinks and I'm pretty sure the only reason he's not driving drunk at the moment is because he totaled his car in a crash (seperate from the DUI) where nobody knows what really happened other than he was in the middle of the street with his car tore up. No other car on the scene. He doesn't remember what happened, but that's not unusual. He's had mornings where he had to go find his car because he didn't know where he'd left it or how he got home. And sometimes his car would be damaged when he'd find it. But he still drinks. I can't imagine.
The sad part is that he's not the only one I know that has had wrecks and even gotten injured in the wreck driving drunk and they still do it. For people like them, I think the only thing that might force them to stop is serving time if they don't kill themselves first.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 21, 2015 18:56:31 GMT -5
I'm on the side of the fence of "no one can make anyone do anything". Which is the point of a prison sentence. If someone is put in prison, generally that person cannot commit that or any other crime for the duration of the prison term.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Jun 21, 2015 18:59:54 GMT -5
I have zero tolerance for drinking and driving. Putting the public at risk because you make stupid choices is not acceptable.
I truly, sincerely don't really care if you drink alcohol to excess and sit at home or at a friends house. It's when you need to leave that a choice needs to be made. Take a cab, uber, have a DD, etc. there are too many accessible options to not have to drive drunk and endanger yourself or others. 1 DUI should come with stiff consequences and anything subsequent is entire revocation of driving privileges and jail time. The right to swing your fist ends at another mans nose. Driving is a privilege not a right!
Not long ago locally, a man with 8 or 9 DUI's (I can't remember) killed a family of 5 driving drunk again. To me, this is incomprehensible. How could the state allow this person to drive? He had an unencumbered drivers license and rights to drive. Absolutely despicable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 19:01:18 GMT -5
I'm far more worried about kids losing a parent FOREVER, due to some drunk arsehole. And I'm thinking HIS kids may be better off with him out of the house for two years. It's not like he's an outstanding influence just waiting to happen. And I also agree with your post!! I spent 5 years trying to police someone else 24/7. You just can't do it. They find a way around everything. When he got thrown in jail for 6 months it was a RELIEF. I didn't have to worry about him using anymore, and I didn't have to worry about him being around our son while he was anymore either. Jail seems to have been the kick in the head he needed at least short term because he's been out a year and a half and still seems to be doing ok, but if he were to rack up 5 DUI's? OMG. I'd be first to speak in court to lock him up (actually long before that). Screw child support, we'll figure out a way to get by. I wouldn't want to risk him ever driving our son around drunk.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 19:05:18 GMT -5
I still think you're not grasping how much of a PIA this would be to implement and enforce. Probably not. Can you explain why? What is the downside of going to a police station twice a day and blowing into a breathalyzer? It has to be cheaper then jail 24/7. Can they not make some kind of breathalyzer that records time and verifies the person blowing into it? Maybe through internet connection and skype. Some pay services sees the person blowing and sees his/her fingerprint in real time while blowing into breathalyzer. Again that would have to be cheaper then jail. Do you worry about kids losing a parent to jail for 2 years, even if parent is at fault and deserves it? Are you interested in mitigating that even if my idea is unworkable? Thank you for the responses. I didn't mean it would be a PIA for him. I meant for law enforcement. And I already stated, if he was my son's Dad I would want him locked up. He's not safe. Don't you get that part? He was given chances to sober up. Many. Now, maybe we can talk about removing his legs at the knees.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 19:05:28 GMT -5
If there are no real consequences, they will continue their behavior until they kill someone. Creating some elaborate bureaucracy to babysit them isn't going to stop their behavior. It will enable them to continue their behavior with some slight inconvenience. Your post addresses nothing I asked about. Not one thing. Being forced to not drink is a real consequence, less severe then jail, but none the less real. Jail is more elaborate bureaucracy then taking breathalyzer tests on a regular basis. If you dont drink you do not drink and drive. If you do drink in my suggestion, you go to jail either one stops the behavior. It does not enable them to continue their behavior. I asked about a different solution to DUIs other then jail. You misrepresented what I asked about completely and almost certainly on purpose. I think the problem with your proposed solution is that most of them will end up in jail anyway for non-compliance. If they're real alcoholics, they have to make the decision to stop on their own and probably need some help (like AA or rehab) with it still. If they haven't made the decision and commitment, they won't comply for long.
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Jun 21, 2015 19:09:40 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 19:09:40 GMT -5
Your post addresses nothing I asked about. Not one thing. Being forced to not drink is a real consequence, less severe then jail, but none the less real. Jail is more elaborate bureaucracy then taking breathalyzer tests on a regular basis. If you dont drink you do not drink and drive. If you do drink in my suggestion, you go to jail either one stops the behavior. It does not enable them to continue their behavior. I asked about a different solution to DUIs other then jail. You misrepresented what I asked about completely and almost certainly on purpose. I think the problem with your proposed solution is that most of them will end up in jail anyway for non-compliance. If they're real alcoholics, they have to make the decision to stop on their own and probably need some help (like AA or rehab) with it still. If they haven't made the decision and commitment, they won't comply for long. I do not see that as a problem. I see my proposed solution as one last chance with little downside. If I were faced with the choice of drinking or jail and did not think I could quit drinking I would look for serious help. If they do not seek help then off to jail like you suggest. eta: Its really not my proposal but just a thought. I am only defending it so strongly because no one seems to give it any thought and dismisses immediately. You can never go wrong here by being a hardass on someone who did something wrong or bad. I like to fight with them on occasion .
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