Work place conflict....need advice (long)

[ArchietheDragon]

Jun 9, 2015 20:56:36 GMT -5 marissam said:

Jun 9, 2015 10:06:06 GMT -5 @rockit said:

 

It would make no sense to make Excel databases when you already have a relational database, so maybe you need to ask her that question - why does she suggest you go backwards?

It is unusual to so intensely dislike someone out of an interview and a week of working. Is there anything in the ethnicity or cultural background of this person that is influencing your feelings? If so look for cultural sensitivity training that can help you better understand this person's approach and behavior. With understanding it might take the edge off the irritation.

In a very small office of 30, you have an ED you are questioning and a new team member that you really dislike. You can't escape either, so you have to make a decision on how you can change to accept this, otherwise look for a new job.  

Her explanation is that she loves excel and believes that she can build it in house and save the organization money.

There's nothing in her cultural background or ethnicity.  It was her approach.  She's marketing herself as an experienced, competent business analyst/process improvement specialist.  But her approach contradicts generally accepted business practices.  I find it difficult to believe that an experienced analyst would begin pushing suggestions before she gets the lay of the land.  She's either totally clueless or extremely arrogant.  

Except that it worked in getting her a job on the spot.   Now she just needs to figure it out.

[Opti]

Jun 9, 2015 21:06:14 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jun 9, 2015 20:56:36 GMT -5 marissam said:

Her explanation is that she loves excel and believes that she can build it in house and save the organization money.

There's nothing in her cultural background or ethnicity.  It was her approach.  She's marketing herself as an experienced, competent business analyst/process improvement specialist.  But her approach contradicts generally accepted business practices.  I find it difficult to believe that an experienced analyst would begin pushing suggestions before she gets the lay of the land.  She's either totally clueless or extremely arrogant.  

Except that it worked in getting her a job on the spot.   Now she just needs to figure it out.

True. YM doesn't like to admit, but I think sales trumps talent and competence pretty often. Especially in the current job market.

[marissam]

Jun 9, 2015 12:02:52 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

I might have been a little off put by her lack of tact in describing former coworkers, but without knowing the question she was asked and the overall tenor of the interview, I don't know that I would have written her off because of the interview. I work with faculty. At my interview for my position, I was asked specifically how I might handle high maintenance people (and this was asked of me by the faculty member present, and I've let interview teams with other faculty members where we has asked candidates this same type of question). I responded with - well, I've spent most of my career working with medical doctors... It was a more tactful way of saying I've worked with high maintenance people, but that's exactly what I was saying. However, I am in a role where tact matters. I don't know if this person is or not.

You are in a small organization. You can't avoid the new person. But try to keep your interactions with her focused on work, and on what you actually need in your work. I am biased, as I do sell one of my major skill sets as being process improvement, but I do think its an incredibly valuable asset. You just need to learn how to focus her on the work that can be done instead of the work everyone hopes could be done.

ED had asked her to go over her resume for myself and the other manager since we were not present for the 1st interview.  New colleague made the comment unsolicited.  

I agree that process improvement is an incredible asset.  I'm collaborating with new colleague on reviewing the program that I manage.  I hope to learn something from her while she's here.  The organization can definitely use an analyst to review our programs and processes.  I just wouldn't have chosen her.  

[Opti]

Jun 9, 2015 20:56:36 GMT -5 marissam said:

Jun 9, 2015 10:06:06 GMT -5 @rockit said:

 

It would make no sense to make Excel databases when you already have a relational database, so maybe you need to ask her that question - why does she suggest you go backwards?

It is unusual to so intensely dislike someone out of an interview and a week of working. Is there anything in the ethnicity or cultural background of this person that is influencing your feelings? If so look for cultural sensitivity training that can help you better understand this person's approach and behavior. With understanding it might take the edge off the irritation.

In a very small office of 30, you have an ED you are questioning and a new team member that you really dislike. You can't escape either, so you have to make a decision on how you can change to accept this, otherwise look for a new job.  

Her explanation is that she loves excel and believes that she can build it in house and save the organization money.

There's nothing in her cultural background or ethnicity.  It was her approach.  She's marketing herself as an experienced, competent business analyst/process improvement specialist.  But her approach contradicts generally accepted business practices.  I find it difficult to believe that an experienced analyst would begin pushing suggestions before she gets the lay of the land.  She's either totally clueless or extremely arrogant.  

You are living my life only at a higher pay grade. The new FT person apparently sold the clean up, make better angle too.

She might be somewhere between clueless and arrogant. My person keeps changing crap on the shared computer, a login shared by at least three people. She doesn't like the way things are, but doesn't consult at all with us(PTers), just our current boss. Sucks to be me, but it will change. Hopefully for the better.

She's likely an Excel disciple and not familiar with tradeoffs of that versus MS SQL, Oracle, etc. Size and scope. Hardware, what you need, what you can support. Let her loose, its what they hired her to do.

[Opti]

Jun 9, 2015 21:09:31 GMT -5 marissam said:

Jun 9, 2015 12:02:52 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

I might have been a little off put by her lack of tact in describing former coworkers, but without knowing the question she was asked and the overall tenor of the interview, I don't know that I would have written her off because of the interview. I work with faculty. At my interview for my position, I was asked specifically how I might handle high maintenance people (and this was asked of me by the faculty member present, and I've let interview teams with other faculty members where we has asked candidates this same type of question). I responded with - well, I've spent most of my career working with medical doctors... It was a more tactful way of saying I've worked with high maintenance people, but that's exactly what I was saying. However, I am in a role where tact matters. I don't know if this person is or not.

You are in a small organization. You can't avoid the new person. But try to keep your interactions with her focused on work, and on what you actually need in your work. I am biased, as I do sell one of my major skill sets as being process improvement, but I do think its an incredibly valuable asset. You just need to learn how to focus her on the work that can be done instead of the work everyone hopes could be done.

ED had asked her to go over her resume for myself and the other manager since we were not present for the 1st interview.  New colleague made the comment unsolicited.  

I agree that process improvement is an incredible asset.  I'm collaborating with new colleague on reviewing the program that I manage.  I hope to learn something from her while she's here.  The organization can definitely use an analyst to review our programs and processes.  I just wouldn't have chosen her.  

See the good, and try to mitigate the bad. JMO as its what I am doing. What kind of business are you in?

[marissam]

Jun 8, 2015 23:35:51 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

"During the second interview, candidate called her current colleagues "high maintenance" and boasted that she knew how to manage them because she had worked with people who were mentally ill for two years.  She said that she quit one job after her employer declined to go forward with her recommendations (she openly shared that her recommendation benefited her more than the company)."


You, your boss, and your co-woerkers are now her "current colleagues. What she said about her previous colleagues will be said about all of you within a year. I expect she probably will not get along with a number of co-workers and superiors. She will be gone within 12 months and trashing you all.

As a hiring manager, I would not have hired her after what she said in her second interview. Bad form on her part trashing her current employer (at the time of the interview).

Keep your head down until she's gone.  

Exactly.  Past behavior is a pretty good indicator of future behavior.  That's why I was shocked when ED offered her the job on the spot.  

[marissam]

Jun 9, 2015 21:19:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 9, 2015 21:09:31 GMT -5 marissam said:

ED had asked her to go over her resume for myself and the other manager since we were not present for the 1st interview.  New colleague made the comment unsolicited.  

I agree that process improvement is an incredible asset.  I'm collaborating with new colleague on reviewing the program that I manage.  I hope to learn something from her while she's here.  The organization can definitely use an analyst to review our programs and processes.  I just wouldn't have chosen her.  

See the good, and try to mitigate the bad. JMO as its what I am doing. What kind of business are you in?

Non profit health and human services organization.  I manage a team of case managers.  

[marissam]

Jun 9, 2015 9:58:00 GMT -5 emma1420 said:

Jun 9, 2015 9:50:12 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

My impressions, just based on this, is that the ED is looking for someone to make some big changes in the organization and no one internally is doing it.  So the ED hired a person that can come in and make big changes.   There will be waves.  No one likes change.   If you want to stay, don't fight the change.    If you don't like the change, look to move elsewhere. 

This person doesn't seem like they were hired for a senior role in the organization though.  Have they been empowered to make the changes they are suggesting by the ED?  

My boss has hired people she thought were great (and were similar to the OP's description of the new employee in her organization) and they have always either being fired or left of their own violation in less than a year.   There are a lot of people who talk a good game, but can't produce results in any meaningful way.  And, at least from my limited experience it's difficult to make any sort of effective change without understanding the current processes and procedures and why they do and don't work.

I think it would be best if the OP smile, grit their teeth, and on the surface appear open to new suggests and change (even if they get ignored later).  I suspect this person will be gone sooner rather than later.

Thankfully, ED has not given her authority to build a database in Excel.  I've been polite and professional with new colleague.  I forward her relevant information, answer her questions, and copy her on emails that pertain to her.  I'm doing my best to be a "team player".    

[marissam]

Jun 9, 2015 16:34:43 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

I had a coworker like that. I was in underwriting, which is a very detail oriented job. She was nice, just seemed to do marginal work at best. She was a temp, so I just wrote it off as not my problem as she was not my direct report. When she left all the stuff she screwed up and covered up came to the surface. I had to clean it up and was still expected to maintain my workload and train new people because my manager didn't know how to do what we did. I was not happy.

This is what I'm afraid of.  I'm a program manager.  I wouldn't know how to clean up her mess or even tell if she made a mess of things.  In fact, unless she's making very obvious mistakes, I don't think anyone at the organization would be able to identify if she screwed up majorly.  

[Opti]

My boss has hired people she thought were great (and were similar to the OP's description of the new employee in her organization) and they have always either being fired or left of their own violation in less than a year. There are a lot of people who talk a good game, but can't produce results in any meaningful way. And, at least from my limited experience it's difficult to make any sort of effective change without understanding the current processes and procedures and why they do and don't work.

I think it would be best if the OP smile, grit their teeth, and on the surface appear open to new suggests and change (even if they get ignored later).

Well said.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

There are only 30 people in the organization. The ED likes her willingness to jump in and get involved and her database knowledge(real or not). She will have the ability to make change regardless of her title.

Being overly aggressive - (not to mention trashing current co-workers during first interview), should have been a huge red flag for the person in charge of hiring.

Hiring them on the spot, without doing a reference check (speaking to former supervisors) to check on work performance, whether they're a team-player, and skills and experience they have related to the current position was a huge mistake on their part.

There may have been other applicants more skilled & qualified who were passed-over just because she appeared to be a "go-getter". Anyone can talk the talk.

Whether she can walk the walk is another matter. More than likely she'll trip over her own feet sooner than later - or try to pass blame on mistakes to someone else. I see her gone within 6 mos unless she can actually prove herself capable of the tasks she was hired to perform.

She also has to be able to get along with and work alongside colleagues without stirring up tensions. She already has the hairs on the nape of your neck standing up just from the interview.

[whoisjohngalt]

Well, people say all kinds of stupid shit in interviews.  Sometimes it's bc they are just stupid, sometimes it's bc they are nervous.  Who knows.

That aside - I find it interesting that what one person perceived as arrogant, another perceived as a go-getter.  It just shows how you really need to be yourself bc you other's  perception of you such a gambling.

I would keep my mouth shut, be professional and not trust her.

But then again, I was like that with 99.9% of my coworkers.  Well, not at first.  At first I was doing all kinds of nonsense, unprofessional things, but then I learned.

[emma1420]

Jun 9, 2015 22:48:31 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Well, people say all kinds of stupid shit in interviews.  Sometimes it's bc they are just stupid, sometimes it's bc they are nervous.  Who knows.

That aside - I find it interesting that what one person perceived as arrogant, another perceived as a go-getter.  It just shows how you really need to be yourself bc you other's  perception of you such a gambling.

I would keep my mouth shut, be professional and not trust her.

But then again, I was like that with 99.9% of my coworkers.  Well, not at first.  At first I was doing all kinds of nonsense, unprofessional things, but then I learned.

I think that is interesting as well.  My boss has a tendency to gravitate towards people she perceives as being self-confident go-getters.  Sometimes this works out well if the person is also a hard worker and has experience or qualifications that means they can do the work needed. But, often it doesn't work out, and we get someone who is arrogant and doesn't have the skills to back up that arrogance.


However, at least where I work, I don't think we do a good job of making sure that the candidate has a realistic understanding of the work entailed.  And, I don't think we are alone.  I think some employers get impressed with a skill set that a candidate has and doesn't relate to the day-to-day work and gives the candidate the impression that the position will be more focused on the impressive skill set.   I'm a big fan of making sure that the candidate has a realistic idea of the position so they truly know what they are getting into.

[marissam]

Jun 10, 2015 9:58:48 GMT -5 emma1420 said:

Jun 9, 2015 22:48:31 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Well, people say all kinds of stupid shit in interviews.  Sometimes it's bc they are just stupid, sometimes it's bc they are nervous.  Who knows.

That aside - I find it interesting that what one person perceived as arrogant, another perceived as a go-getter.  It just shows how you really need to be yourself bc you other's  perception of you such a gambling.

I would keep my mouth shut, be professional and not trust her.

But then again, I was like that with 99.9% of my coworkers.  Well, not at first.  At first I was doing all kinds of nonsense, unprofessional things, but then I learned.

I think that is interesting as well.  My boss has a tendency to gravitate towards people she perceives as being self-confident go-getters.  Sometimes this works out well if the person is also a hard worker and has experience or qualifications that means they can do the work needed. But, often it doesn't work out, and we get someone who is arrogant and doesn't have the skills to back up that arrogance.


However, at least where I work, I don't think we do a good job of making sure that the candidate has a realistic understanding of the work entailed.  And, I don't think we are alone.  I think some employers get impressed with a skill set that a candidate has and doesn't relate to the day-to-day work and gives the candidate the impression that the position will be more focused on the impressive skill set.   I'm a big fan of making sure that the candidate has a realistic idea of the position so they truly know what they are getting into.

The fearless, go getter, not afraid to jump right in comment was said by ED after the first interview.  ED barely said a word during the second interview.  I'm assuming ED was impressed with candidate's (now colleague) idea to build the database in Excel, keep it in house, and save the organization $$$.  My impression was formed after the second interview when she started pushing Excel and made unprofessional comments about her colleagues.   

Oh, I totally agree.  My organization, especially our ED, is terrible at giving candidates a real clear picture of the position.  I found out my first day on the job that I would be managing TWO programs.  There was no mention of the second program during the 3 interviews.