Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 8, 2015 21:33:50 GMT -5
Everyone talks about the banks. JPM said they did not need the bailout. They said they did not want the bail out. The Feds said, your taking it and shut up.
What about GM and the Unions? This was not for the good of the country. It was for the good of the Union and the Democratic party.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 8, 2015 21:36:04 GMT -5
In Greenberg's case, it was taking his equity from him, not the salary or bonus. What kind of equity is in a bankrupt business? If memory serves me, AIG was not bankrupt, and the stock was not worthless. The Government decided the stock was worthless. They took it without just payment. That is why Greenberg will win the lawsuit.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 8, 2015 21:44:24 GMT -5
How bad was the recession? I honestly felt no effect. I heard about it on the news but nothing much changed in my life. I heard about unemployment but honestly, I don't ever remember not hearing about unemployment. We definitely felt the recession at our house. DH's company did a wage freeze. For 5 years. And, the company I was working at did no company match on the retirement plan for 2 years. Even now, a couple of our friends are still stringing together part-time jobs, rather than working one job.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 9, 2015 3:05:32 GMT -5
Lost my job DS lost his twice Sis was on UIB 99 weeks and won't ever get that pay again DD lost her job, house, marriage BIL lost his job
Investments have recovered but: BIL & Sis haven't
Apparently Canada had it easier
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jun 9, 2015 6:58:11 GMT -5
Best to be over bashing folks that don't repay student loans.
Captain you are repeating the myth that the bank owners like to spew. Let the banks fail and we will find a way to keep public transit functioning. We would find a way to keep everything functioning. Well I'm not so sure about that...when the federal debt wasn't extended, several parts of government shut down. They did not find a way to keep eveything functioning.
Or are you saying that shut down was a politicial ploy by the Dems?
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 7:07:06 GMT -5
Laterbloomer is from Canada. How she never knew there was a REALLY SEVERE recession affecting everyone in the U.S. is beyond my scope. I imagine Canada sneezed over our recession too. Any Canadian invested in U.S. stocks or mutual funds sure knew about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2015 8:14:00 GMT -5
Laterbloomer is from Canada. How she never knew there was a REALLY SEVERE recession affecting everyone in the U.S. is beyond my scope. I imagine Canada sneezed over our recession too. Any Canadian invested in U.S. stocks or mutual funds sure knew about it. You need to reread my post. I said I heard and read about it but other than unemployment I didn't see any real effects. I have lived in places that had relatively high unemployment throughout my life so that is same old same old to me.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 9, 2015 8:22:04 GMT -5
Value Buy, maybe Canadians didn't go thru the foreclosure crisis? Or have retirees living off their investments? Or buy CDs?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 9, 2015 8:25:24 GMT -5
I never used to see panhanders until after the recession hit. My home still isn't up to the price I paid for it in 2007, never mind all the upgrades we've done so far. (It was a fixer, bought for a really good price at the time). My brother lost 2 jobs and a wife. My brother and sister both lost their houses, but that is mostly on them/their spouses. DB pay is now significantly less than it was before the recession. My 401k match was cut for around 3 years, and then I got a 10% pay cut out of my already low salary for a year or 2.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2015 8:26:27 GMT -5
Value Buy, maybe Canadians didn't go thru the foreclosure crisis? Or have retirees living off their investments? Or buy CDs? We didn't have the foreclosure crisis. Retirees living off of their investments is not a tragedy. Having less money is not the same as having no money folks. (Ya I have my flame retardant suit on) Nobody has to buy CDs.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 9, 2015 8:29:45 GMT -5
laterbloomer now you've lost me. If retirees are living off their investments and they drop to 50c on the dollar, it is an unusual occurrence that would be noticable . I'm glad your government job & foster care support payments weren't affected but down here government employees were taking cuts in pay of up to 10% just to keep jobs
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 9, 2015 8:35:55 GMT -5
Everyone talks about the banks. JPM said they did not need the bailout. They said they did not want the bail out. The Feds said, your taking it and shut up. What about GM and the Unions?This was not for the good of the country. It was for the good of the Union and the Democratic party. Not that I'm defending what happened with GM, Chrysler, and the Unions but there is more than one thing to consider here. It's pretty common knowledge that a lot of the manufacturing base has left the US. When I used to work for a manufacturing company we had to fill out a Census form every year (or two, can't remember) detailing exactly how much, and what type of manufacturing capacity we had and how quickly we could ramp up to more capacity if needed. Now think for a minute why the government is keeping tabs on that kind of info. Yep, if we go to war with China or Russia (or whomever) who do you think would accept our outsouring the manufacture of war equipment? Would we even want it to be manufactured anywhere else? We need to keep a certain amount of manufacturing in the US. Auto and aircraft plants can be retooled fairly quickly, as we demonstrated during WWI and II. The only thing that still kinda surprises me is how little steel production capability we have. It takes a while to get a full steel mill functioning.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2015 9:22:39 GMT -5
laterbloomer now you've lost me. If retirees are living off their investments and they drop to 50c on the dollar, it is an unusual occurrence that would be noticable . I'm glad your government job & foster care support payments weren't affected but down here government employees were taking cuts in pay of up to 10% just to keep jobs Not that it makes any difference but I don't have a government job.
I don't know how else to say that retirees having less money is not the same as having no money. If they did not cash in all of their investments at once it should only have taken about 2 to 4 years off of how long their investments should last them if they make no adjustments to their spending.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 9:33:01 GMT -5
Everyone talks about the banks. JPM said they did not need the bailout. They said they did not want the bail out. The Feds said, your taking it and shut up. What about GM and the Unions?This was not for the good of the country. It was for the good of the Union and the Democratic party. Not that I'm defending what happened with GM, Chrysler, and the Unions but there is more than one thing to consider here. It's pretty common knowledge that a lot of the manufacturing base has left the US. When I used to work for a manufacturing company we had to fill out a Census form every year (or two, can't remember) detailing exactly how much, and what type of manufacturing capacity we had and how quickly we could ramp up to more capacity if needed. Now think for a minute why the government is keeping tabs on that kind of info. Yep, if we go to war with China or Russia (or whomever) who do you think would accept our outsouring the manufacture of war equipment? Would we even want it to be manufactured anywhere else? We need to keep a certain amount of manufacturing in the US. Auto and aircraft plants can be retooled fairly quickly, as we demonstrated during WWI and II. The only thing that still kinda surprises me is how little steel production capability we have. It takes a while to get a full steel mill functioning. Outside of lost production due to the recession causing lay offs and lack of overtime, how much did the auto workers give up compared to regular Americans in other industries, that simply disappeared? If the UAW gave up even a week's vacation time or two dollars an hour, I would agree, but if you were working, you lived the highlife thanks to the government protecting their voter base. GM killed off the non-union division too. No one complains about the auto industry, but those damn banks.......who actually were forced into the underwater mortgage business because the Feds allowed freestanding mortgage loan companies to pop up on every corner in America, undercutting the banks. No, I really am not promoting the banks and their greed, but the big national unions are right there at the trough with them. Hypocrosy is a two way street.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2015 9:34:39 GMT -5
I didn't know the Unions were suing anyone.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 9:37:12 GMT -5
laterbloomer now you've lost me. If retirees are living off their investments and they drop to 50c on the dollar, it is an unusual occurrence that would be noticable . I'm glad your government job & foster care support payments weren't affected but down here government employees were taking cuts in pay of up to 10% just to keep jobs Not that it makes any difference but I don't have a government job.
I don't know how else to say that retirees having less money is not the same as having no money. If they did not cash in all of their investments at once it should only have taken about 2 to 4 years off of how long their investments should last them if they make no adjustments to their spending.
fyi, the winter snowbirds in the south, from Canada sure worried about their investments and businesses declining during our recession....... Ever hear the saying, "when America sneezes, the world catches the cold? Weren't you on the old MSN boards? I thought you were. There was plenty of talk about the "American recession". I apoligize if you weren't part of the discussion.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 9:38:11 GMT -5
I didn't know the Unions were suing anyone. They did not have to sue the Feds. They were in the union's back pocket. They only "sue" the company they work for.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 9, 2015 9:38:37 GMT -5
laterbloomer now you've lost me. If retirees are living off their investments and they drop to 50c on the dollar, it is an unusual occurrence that would be noticable . I'm glad your government job & foster care support payments weren't affected but down here government employees were taking cuts in pay of up to 10% just to keep jobs Not that it makes any difference but I don't have a government job.
I don't know how else to say that retirees having less money is not the same as having no money. If they did not cash in all of their investments at once it should only have taken about 2 to 4 years off of how long their investments should last them if they make no adjustments to their spending.
I may not have done a good job of explaining things. Retirees, especially of my MIL's/father's generation, tend to want their investments to be very safe. It used to be that you could get certificate of deposit rates between 3-5%. So if you have, say 300K saved that would throw out between 9-15K a year. Now you're lucky if you can get 1.5% on a CD. That gives you 4.5K a year or 1/2 to 2/3'ds less than what you were getting before. On the low end of each scenario that works out to $375 a month less, on the high end it's $875 a month less. For someone like my MIL who's on SS (no pension) and investment/interest only income that amount is significant. All this when you planned and saved your whole life when CD rates were once as high as 8-10%, so yea - 1-1.5% is a bitter pill to swallow (and it's been as low as below 1%). She's terrified of dipping into principal and I can't blame her. Once that's gone she's be on SS only
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jun 9, 2015 9:43:49 GMT -5
I agree with The Captain. CD rates are horribly low right now. My Mom lost everything during the Great Depression, & will not let me put ANY of her money into the stock market. So, what's left of her savings is in CD's. I don't even have to tell you that she is now living on Social Security, her pension & dipping into her savings, because living in a nursing home is SO expensive. Interest rates have NOT recovered at all, even if the employment rate is improving.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 9:45:52 GMT -5
Value Buy, maybe Canadians didn't go thru the foreclosure crisis? Or have retirees living off their investments? Or buy CDs? Ever watch "Virgin house hunters" on HGTV? I do not think it is on the air any more. Young couples in Canada would look at three homes and make a purchase decision. The price of homes in Canada were about double what the same home would cost in the Midwest of the U.S. Most were not even done with mortgages of 5% down, etc. It was done with probably 50% cash. Canada has high home prices, but the mortgage crisis did not occur there for the most part, because buyers hold a major equity stake from the first month. I know it is not true for everyone in Canada, but it is closer to the norm for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2015 9:46:22 GMT -5
Not wanting to dip into principal is not the same as not being able to. If she had to dip into her principal to the tune of $10,000/year, the money would last her another 30 years.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 9:49:29 GMT -5
Not that it makes any difference but I don't have a government job.
I don't know how else to say that retirees having less money is not the same as having no money. If they did not cash in all of their investments at once it should only have taken about 2 to 4 years off of how long their investments should last them if they make no adjustments to their spending.
I may not have done a good job of explaining things. Retirees, especially of my MIL's/father's generation, tend to want their investments to be very safe. It used to be that you could get certificate of deposit rates between 3-5%. So if you have, say 300K saved that would throw out between 9-15K a year. Now you're lucky if you can get 1.5% on a CD. That gives you 4.5K a year or 1/2 to 2/3'ds less than what you were getting before. On the low end of each scenario that works out to $375 a month less, on the high end it's $875 a month less. For someone like my MIL who's on SS (no pension) and investment/interest only income that amount is significant. All this when you planned and saved your whole life when CD rates were once as high as 8-10%, so yea - 1-1.5% is a bitter pill to swallow (and it's been as low as below 1%). She's terrified of dipping into principal and I can't blame her. Once that's gone she's be on SS only My wife and I have decided, it will be ok to eventually dip into the savings. That is why it is there. I know for many elderly (we are not quite there yet) this is hard to do. I always told my parents do not save it for the children. Enjoy it. They never did.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 9, 2015 9:54:11 GMT -5
Not wanting to dip into principal is not the same as not being able to. If she had to dip into her principal to the tune of $10,000/year, the money would last her another 30 years.
Maybe, maybe not. If in stocks or funds, one could easily lose 10% principal amount, due to a falling stock market and then you are no longer pulling out say, 5% that year. It might be closer to 7%, thus you are losing the nest egg at a faster pace. If it is in an IRA, YOU ARE ALSO TAXED FROM THE FIRST DOLLAR, REDEEMED, ON STATE AND FEDERAL INCOME TAX, THUS INFLATING THE TAX BILL OWED, FORCING SOME MORE LIQUIDATION OF ASSETS DEPLETING THE POOL EVEN FASTER. Our government is probably as not as citizenry friendly as Canada is
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Post by The Captain on Jun 9, 2015 10:02:48 GMT -5
I may not have done a good job of explaining things. Retirees, especially of my MIL's/father's generation, tend to want their investments to be very safe. It used to be that you could get certificate of deposit rates between 3-5%. So if you have, say 300K saved that would throw out between 9-15K a year. Now you're lucky if you can get 1.5% on a CD. That gives you 4.5K a year or 1/2 to 2/3'ds less than what you were getting before. On the low end of each scenario that works out to $375 a month less, on the high end it's $875 a month less. For someone like my MIL who's on SS (no pension) and investment/interest only income that amount is significant. All this when you planned and saved your whole life when CD rates were once as high as 8-10%, so yea - 1-1.5% is a bitter pill to swallow (and it's been as low as below 1%). She's terrified of dipping into principal and I can't blame her. Once that's gone she's be on SS only My wife and I have decided, it will be ok to eventually dip into the savings. That is why it is there. I know for many elderly (we are not quite there yet) this is hard to do. I always told my parents do not save it for the children. Enjoy it. They never did. I agree with you 100% VB. However the women on my MIL's side of the family tend to be long lived even with health problems. It's hard to know how long you need to make the resources last...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 9, 2015 10:09:43 GMT -5
I don't know. This is one of those things that SEEMS bad, but the truth is I really don't know enough about the legalities, business theory, and what happened in 2008 to really make an informed opinion. I would imagine many are in the same boat.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 9, 2015 10:20:39 GMT -5
Not wanting to dip into principal is not the same as not being able to. If she had to dip into her principal to the tune of $10,000/year, the money would last her another 30 years. let me use your numbers. Let's say she has 300k and needs 10k per year. Then the market tanks and she has to sell investments to get that 10k. Not far fetched. Normal. Happened. But the 300k is now only 150k. So she panics and sells all. Common in 2008-2009. Now she only has enough for 15 yrs. Simple math. Afraid she puts it into CDs. But instead of them paying 5% they're paying 1-2%. This is a problem
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 9, 2015 10:22:02 GMT -5
How bad was the recession? I honestly felt no effect. I heard about it on the news but nothing much changed in my life. I heard about unemployment but honestly, I don't ever remember not hearing about unemployment. I lost about 30k in real money (not hypothetical) on the sale of my Condo. I had to bring money to closing
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Post by Bonny on Jun 9, 2015 10:38:57 GMT -5
How bad was the recession? I honestly felt no effect. I heard about it on the news but nothing much changed in my life. I heard about unemployment but honestly, I don't ever remember not hearing about unemployment. I lost about 30k in real money (not hypothetical) on the sale of my Condo. I had to bring money to closing Phoenix's scenario was very common in the Phoenix (AZ) area. Many of DH's colleagues were forced to sell at a loss to relocate out of state.
We were very lucky that we anticipated that we might have another relocation and structured our financing for an extended time as a rental. Although we were lucky that the house probably only lost about $25k at the low point what we didn't anticipate was a 25% drop in rental values as investors swooped in bought foreclosures and flooded the market with rentals. We had a negative CF property for about 3 years.
Our situation was mild compared to many others and we were able to maintain a good income stream because we were willing to relocate out of the country for a while. Not everyone had that option.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 9, 2015 12:18:38 GMT -5
Furthermore I heard about unemployment but honestly, I don't ever remember not hearing about unemployment. Let's be totally honest. Unemployment was at 4.9% in February 2008 and averaged around 5% until it started creeping up. It doubled by October 2009. How didn't you notice? (Canada went from 5.9% to 8.3% during that time and topped out at 8.5%. Thats a 44% increase.) So people are pulling $$s out at a particularly bad time
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 9, 2015 14:15:09 GMT -5
Not wanting to dip into principal is not the same as not being able to. If she had to dip into her principal to the tune of $10,000/year, the money would last her another 30 years. let me use your numbers. Let's say she has 300k and needs 10k per year. Then the market tanks and she has to sell investments to get that 10k. Not far fetched. Normal. Happened. But the 300k is now only 150k. So she panics and sells all. Common in 2008-2009. Now she only has enough for 15 yrs. Simple math. Afraid she puts it into CDs. But instead of them paying 5% they're paying 1-2%. This is a problem What you are saying is accurate; however, I would hope someone of retirement age would not have their entire retirement in the stock market. I am also not sure why people make such a huge deal about dipping into their principle. Yeah, I get that the less money you have means the less that is there to make interest but dying with a large sum on money sitting in the bank is just a bit ridiculous to me. Of course, I guess I can say this because I have no children but I told my parents over and over not to worry about my brother or me. We are making our own money and saving for retirement. No need to worry about leaving us anything. I, myself, fully plan to dip into my principle during retirement.
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