AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 9, 2011 11:08:43 GMT -5
It just seems wrong, though, that a large percentage of the employees of the US's largest employer qualify welfare programs like the EITC and Medicaid, so in effect, the government is subsidizing Walmart. This is what I find the most interesting. I though PBP is one of the people who are always saying people should get jobs and support themselves so they don't need government programs but they are OK with Walmart giving jobs that cause the majority of their workers to use said programs? Maybe I'm wrong about PBP's views in particular, but if you are against people being on WIC, EITC, foodstamps, etc. shouldn't you still be against if you are seemingly paying for cheap goods but as a tax payer you are funding those cheap goods by paying for those "entitlement programs" for the majority of their workers?! I'm for a flatter, fairer tax code, and de-regulation. This brings down costs, boosts employment, and the tax receipts. The result is lower costs, less of a need for inflationary policies like the minimum wage, and less of a need for government assistance to help people afford a cost of living that is no longer artificially made higher by bad government policy.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 11:10:22 GMT -5
Whatever happened to the idea of an entry level job?
People stay in entry level jobs paying min wage, an average of six months. Walmart is a typical retail job. It is also the only large company in the world where someone with only a high school education can move into management.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:10:45 GMT -5
UAW starting wage is 12 dollars an hr. Pretty good for a kid right out of highschool,as you say,but I doubt they hire too many kids right out of highschool. Too many people on the union halls waiting list.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 11:11:31 GMT -5
This is what I find the most interesting. I though PBP is one of the people who are always saying people should get jobs and support themselves so they don't need government programs but they are OK with Walmart giving jobs that cause the majority of their workers to use said programs?
Every retailer out there pays min or just above. Been there....done it....
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Mar 9, 2011 11:12:28 GMT -5
It just seems wrong, though, that a large percentage of the employees of the US's largest employer qualify welfare programs like the EITC and Medicaid, so in effect, the government is subsidizing Walmart. This is what I find the most interesting. I though PBP is one of the people who are always saying people should get jobs and support themselves so they don't need government programs but they are OK with Walmart giving jobs that cause the majority of their workers to use said programs? Maybe I'm wrong about PBP's views in particular, but if you are against people being on WIC, EITC, foodstamps, etc. shouldn't you still be against if you are seemingly paying for cheap goods but as a tax payer you are funding those cheap goods by paying for those "entitlement programs" for the majority of their workers?! I also like how people keep saying that the employees don't have to work at Walmart, but yet ignore the fact that Walmart comes in, causes small businesses to shut down, people loose their jobs at these business and the only place left to work is Walmart. Ultimately this is social issue more than a political issue. People need to stop shopping there and support smaller businesses if they don't like what Walmart is doing.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 9, 2011 11:12:32 GMT -5
In short- Wal-Mart cutting people's expenses by 20% to 30% over the union shop grocers (which are everywhere in IL) is itself a private market subsidy, and a wage increase. There are two ways to give people a raise, and increase there standard of living. There's the inflationary, economy-stiffling big government / union way; and there's the efficient free market way.
As I said, Wal-Mart itself is an anti-poverty program. Get out of their way-- let them do things like use gasoline as a loss-leader by selling it for $.50 or $1.00 a gallon (which they want to do, but were prohibited by government price-fixing schemes that artificially keep gas prices high) and that will help more working families than some silly regulation, corrupt union, or other government market intervention.
Will some gas stations go out of business? Yes. And they should. The market should NEVER be stopped from delivering the best quality goods and services at the lowest price.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:14:18 GMT -5
I took a minumin wage job a few years into retirement to get some medical bills paid off.Guess what,it was also a union job.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 9, 2011 11:15:55 GMT -5
It just seems wrong, though, that a large percentage of the employees of the US's largest employer qualify welfare programs like the EITC and Medicaid, so in effect, the government is subsidizing Walmart. This is what I find the most interesting. I though PBP is one of the people who are always saying people should get jobs and support themselves so they don't need government programs but they are OK with Walmart giving jobs that cause the majority of their workers to use said programs? Maybe I'm wrong about PBP's views in particular, but if you are against people being on WIC, EITC, foodstamps, etc. shouldn't you still be against if you are seemingly paying for cheap goods but as a tax payer you are funding those cheap goods by paying for those "entitlement programs" for the majority of their workers?! Ultimately this is social issue more than a political issue. People need to stop shopping there and support smaller businesses if they don't like what Walmart is doing. But they don't. And my question for the Wal-Mart haters is this: If YOU won't voluntarily pay more, why would you require someone else to involuntarily pay more? Why would you use the force of government to make sure we ALL were coerced into paying more? It's not a legitimate use of government power. It not only doesn't protect the rights of individuals, it actually infringes on them. If someone wants to sell me gas for $1.00 a gallon, and I want to pay $1.00 a gallon-- what right does government have to come and get in the middle of the transaction and dictate the price?
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:18:16 GMT -5
Union grocery stores in Il. pay minimum wage and no benefits for the first year,then get little raises and pretty bad benies..Employees are lucky to get to the 12 dollar an hour mark within 8 years of service.Most move on within the first year.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 9, 2011 11:18:52 GMT -5
Guess what,it was also a union job.
?? I certainly hope you were not paying union dues...
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 9, 2011 11:19:48 GMT -5
Considering that television hosted several programs about "The Triangle Shirtwaist" conflagration lately, and Walmart was infamous for locking workers in stores with no means of escape in the event of fire, I think your timing could improve on the T-Shirt. I think you have your facts mixed up. I can't find one instance mentioning a walmart lock-in where there were no available fire-doors or the fire-doors were locked. It seems it was common for management to tell people that they could be fired for using the fire door, but if you take that so far as to assume you shouldn't use it in an actually emergency, then you are an idiot.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 9, 2011 11:22:21 GMT -5
How is this different from Target or Kohls or any mom & pop store? These jobs pay low wages because they require little skill. Just because walmart happens to be a bigger company than others, doesn't mean somehow they should have to pay their workers higher wages than the industry standard.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 9, 2011 11:22:39 GMT -5
Yeah- my first job was at Jewel, a grocery store chain in Chicago. It was minimum wage, and for the priviledge of getting me two 15 minute breaks per 8 hours, I got to pay union dues out of my minimum wage paycheck.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:24:27 GMT -5
I certainly hope you were not paying union dues...
Yes,I did pay dues for a minimum wage job with no benies. But no one forced me to. It was a grocery store right up the street,with no pressure,and a lot of good people. I would do it again if I felt the need. May I add, I do have a pension and medical, so the lack of benies did not matter to me.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 9, 2011 11:25:25 GMT -5
This is what I find the most interesting. I though PBP is one of the people who are always saying people should get jobs and support themselves so they don't need government programs but they are OK with Walmart giving jobs that cause the majority of their workers to use said programs?Every retailer out there pays min or just above. Been there....done it.... I've done it too and my spine is still paying for my last stint. The difference between Walmart and many big box retailers is their corporate policy regarding full-timers. Unless something has changed recently, they keep their full-time staff 30hrs. a week and above to around 20-30% of their workforce max. The rest are part time. The last big box retailer I worked for in 2005 the mix was closer to at least 50% fulltime and the rest part time. If all Walmarts were surrounded by other businesses that these workers could choose to work at instead or in addition to this policy wouldn't be so socially and tax payer impacting. However, in the small towns where Walmart has crushed local businesses this isn't true and the cycle of poverty for the affected workers gets much much worse than it was before.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 9, 2011 11:26:13 GMT -5
How is this different from Target or Kohls or any mom & pop store? These jobs pay low wages because they require little skill. Just because walmart happens to be a bigger company than others, doesn't mean somehow they should have to pay their workers higher wages than the industry standard. It just seems a little hypocritical that Paul who espouses non governmental intervention in business, can laud a company that is as successful as it is, and the success is based partially on the low wages they pay, and the governement is subsidizing the employees. it's not different that any other retailer. People earning a living wage is a whole 'nother ball of wax..........
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:26:36 GMT -5
Think they had a hard time finding someone to take your place paul?I bet many were willing to pay those dues,just as many are willing to work at Walmart.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 9, 2011 11:29:59 GMT -5
Yes,I did pay dues for a minimum wage job with no benies.
So in other words the union scumbags were stealing a certain amount of money from your paycheck. Such thieving parasites should be executed in my opinion.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:30:01 GMT -5
I certainly hope you were not paying union dues...
Yes,I did pay dues for a minimum wage job with no benies. But no one forced me to. It was a grocery store right up the street,with no pressure,and a lot of good people. I would do it again if I felt the need. May I add, I do have a pension and medical, so the lack of benies did not matter to me.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Mar 9, 2011 11:33:18 GMT -5
Actually, I agreed to when I applied there.No one forced me to ask for a job there. Union jobs are but a small fraction of the jobs.No one is forced to work one by gunpoint.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 9, 2011 11:35:56 GMT -5
Up until the early 1990s, Angel, the fire doors in some WalMarts were chained shut. A man in Georgia died because paramedics who had been called were unable to get in, there was no manager with a key, and the fire doors were chained shut. Since then, the fire doors have remained open, however employees are repeatedly told they can't use them unless there's a fire. They're told they can be fired if they do. Some of these employees are disabled (including those who are mentally challenged) and are truly afraid of losing their jobs. It's understandable, to me, they'd not know what to do in a case of emergency that wasn't a fire.
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Post by Opti on Mar 9, 2011 11:35:57 GMT -5
How is this different from Target or Kohls or any mom & pop store? These jobs pay low wages because they require little skill. Just because walmart happens to be a bigger company than others, doesn't mean somehow they should have to pay their workers higher wages than the industry standard. The difference AngelD is Walmart more fully exploits the loopholes in the tax code to lower their costs by insuring about 70 to 80% of their workforce is part time and does not qualify for healthcare. Because of that a greater percentage of workers from Walmart use and need these programs to survive compared to almost any large big box retailer. The unfortunate thing to me is the federal government has OK'd this and did deals with Walmart to further lower the healthcare cost burden on this employer in exchange for their support of the recently passed nicknamed Obamacare bill.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 9, 2011 11:37:22 GMT -5
Fair enough, I guessed I missed your point.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 11:43:22 GMT -5
Fair enough, I guessed I missed your point.
That is not even a point. Retail has historically paid low, and not provided benefits. Has nothing to do with Walmart.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 11:47:44 GMT -5
The difference AngelD is Walmart more fully exploits the loopholes in the tax code to lower their costs by insuring about 70 to 80% of their workforce is part time and does not qualify for healthcare
Perhaps they are not exploiting loopholes, but providing flexible work schedules their employees are asking for. No one is forced to work there. Yet, when ever a Walmart is being opened, literally 1000s show up.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 9, 2011 11:48:15 GMT -5
Actually companies of a certain size, i.e. greater than 50 employees? are required to offer some benefits like health insurance to their full-time workers. No requirements on affordibility that I know about which is why most first level full-timers at Walmart and the big retailer I worked at often do not have health insurance because they can't afford the deduction from their paycheck and still pay their bills.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 11:50:34 GMT -5
I'd love to see that source, that says by govt mandate a company must provide certain benefits like health insurance.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 9, 2011 11:51:35 GMT -5
"Perhaps they are not exploiting loopholes, but providing flexible work schedules their employees are asking for."
Would be nice if that's true, but its corporate bottom line policy and I've watched documentaries and read about manager's who felt bad about cutting worker's hours who needed the money but their hands were tied.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 11:54:13 GMT -5
Would be nice if that's true, but its corporate bottom line policy and I've watched documentaries and read about manager's who felt bad about cutting worker's hours who needed the money but their hands were tied.
Most documentaries on Walmart are heavily biased. Again. Not a single person is forced to apply for a job at Walmart. There is nothing outrageous with what they do, which is pretty standard in retail. People need to get over themselves. What kind of fool would stay in a low paying, no skill job for 40 years.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 9, 2011 11:54:19 GMT -5
Fair enough, I guessed I missed your point. That is not even a point. Retail has historically paid low, and not provided benefits. Has nothing to do with Walmart. No, Swamp's point was that she found it hypocritical that WCP would be talking about how great Walmart is when many of their employees are subsidized by the govt. It has nothing to do with walmart specifically, but rather pointing out WCP's views seem contradictory on this subject.
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