dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Mar 9, 2011 15:35:56 GMT -5
BING!! BING!! BING!! We have a winner!! Because although colleges do provide jobs, the influx of students that the colleges inevitably bring, does have a long-term impact on the community and that impact is not always looked upon favorably by the "locals". And then as a local you try to effect change through your vote, but your individual vote cannot compete with the temporary student resident voting block? Could that be where the resentment is coming from? Unless a student owns property, the majority of the local taxes that will be collected from students are sales taxes. I wouldn't exactly call that taxation without representation. Umm - do the students not rent & therefore indirectly pay property taxes? You are saying even though students make up a large part of the local population & provide jobs (no student, no college, no jobs), they should have no say in how things run? Many will live there for 4+ year, how does that qualify as temporary? No, renters do not pay property taxes; they pay rent. Moreover, if they go to a state school and live in the dorms, the building is state owned and no property taxes are assessed. I'm not saying that that is the case with all students; it's just an example of a student who pays for the place that they live in with no property taxes involved whatsoever. Students do not come to the university with the INTENTION of becoming a long term member of the community. They come with the INTENTION of getting an education and moving on. In my mind that is temporary.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 9, 2011 15:36:16 GMT -5
Umm - do the students not rent & therefore indirectly pay property taxes? You are saying even though students make up a large part of the local population & provide jobs (no student, no college, no jobs), they should have no say in how things run? Many will live there for 4+ year, how does that qualify as temporary? I have spent 40-60 hours/week at my place of employment for the past 10 years and yet I do not get to vote for the mayor of Tampa. Do I not have a stake in what happens in Tampa? Should I not get a say in who becomes the next mayor of Tampa?
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Mar 9, 2011 15:38:13 GMT -5
Yes, I agree. So how does one prove their legal residency? And if they don't have to do that in the current system, doesn't that lend itself to voter fraud - being able to vote absentee at an old location and in person at a new location? Voters swear under penalty of perjury. Uh, ya - like that would deter someone who wanted to intentionally commit voter fraud.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Mar 9, 2011 15:38:40 GMT -5
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 9, 2011 15:44:36 GMT -5
Students do not come to the university with the INTENTION of becoming a long term member of the community. They come with the INTENTION of getting an education and moving on. In my mind that is temporary. how do you, or anyone else, know what a large group of people intends to do? I went to college in Boston, with a fair amount of classmates from outside MA. every single one of them planned as freshmen to stay in the Boston area after graduation. that kind of skews your numbers a little, eh? not that this matters, because people have the right to vote in local elections wherever they declare residency, but would you put people who take a temporary relocation for a job into the same bucket as those students you deem temporary residents? I mean, temporary is temporary, being a student is still an occupation.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Mar 9, 2011 15:51:32 GMT -5
No. Usually the resentment comes from the fact that many college students are unruly, keep late hours, and often tear up property. And what do you think will happen if the locals try to enact legislation to curtail the student activity that they think is negatively impacting their community? [/quote] If the locals are upset that the very people who provide their livelihoods are receiving a voice in local politics, then maybe they should rethink their decision to live in a college town.[/quote] Unless it is a private college or university, it is not the students that provide the livelihood of the university employees; it is the state. Sure the students pay tuition, but that tuition is heavily subsidized by the state. That was/has been the case in CA anyway.
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Mar 9, 2011 15:54:56 GMT -5
Here is the difference; Requiring an ID at no charge is not an issue. Most states charge, requiring a voter to pay for an ID to vote is not appropriate.
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Mar 9, 2011 15:58:59 GMT -5
Also Virginia had the the following;
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 16:02:30 GMT -5
Requiring an ID at no charge is not an issue. Most states charge, requiring a voter to pay for an ID to vote is not appropriate.
Life sucks. Get over it.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Mar 9, 2011 16:13:08 GMT -5
Students do not come to the university with the INTENTION of becoming a long term member of the community. They come with the INTENTION of getting an education and moving on. In my mind that is temporary. how do you, or anyone else, know what a large group of people intends to do? I went to college in Boston, with a fair amount of classmates from outside MA. every single one of them planned as freshmen to stay in the Boston area after graduation. that kind of skews your numbers a little, eh? not that this matters, because people have the right to vote in local elections wherever they declare residency, but would you put people who take a temporary relocation for a job into the same bucket as those students you deem temporary residents? I mean, temporary is temporary, being a student is still an occupation. No, it doesn't skew my number a little, eh? What is a "fair amount"? And what one speaks of wanting or planning to do at age 18 as a freshman is a far cry from the reality of what may or may not happen four years later. Did you take an exit poll? Just kidding. BUT if a student DOES graduate and ends up finding employment and living in the community - great; go register to vote. And yes, I would put people who take a temporary relocation for a job into the same bucket as students because yes, as you say, temporary is temporary. My DH was on temporary assignment with his employer for several months in Alaska; he voted absentee in CA.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 9, 2011 16:16:32 GMT -5
Requiring an ID at no charge is not an issue. Most states charge, requiring a voter to pay for an ID to vote is not appropriate. They're paying for the ID to prove residency (ETA: or license to prove the right to drive). The fee is for the State ID or drivers license remains the same whether I intend to use it for voting purposes or not.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 9, 2011 16:17:32 GMT -5
And what one speaks of wanting or planning to do at age 18 as a freshman is a far cry from the reality of what may or may not happen four years later. I'd say that's a valid statement about any age, really. which is why I don't look at students any differently than anyone else that isn't literally tied down to the land they live on....which is all of us. it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm heading home soon and probably won't be on later to check back on this thread.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 9, 2011 16:18:56 GMT -5
Requiring an ID at no charge is not an issue. Most states charge, requiring a voter to pay for an ID to vote is not appropriate. They're paying for the ID to prove residency. The fee is for the State ID or drivers license remains the same whether I intend to use it for voting purposes or not. but if you do not need it for any other purpose than to prove residency, then you do in fact need to pay for an ID in order to vote.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 16:20:30 GMT -5
They're paying for the ID to prove residency. The fee is for the State ID or drivers license remains the same whether I intend to use it for voting purposes or not.
One would think citizens of the US would be strongly in favor of reducing and/or eliminating voter fraud. Here we have six pages of arguing all sorts of twisted and convoluted angles, against taking measures via something as simple as producing an ID to prove residency. We wonder why good paying jobs are being outsourced.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 16:21:29 GMT -5
but if you do not need it for any other purpose than to prove residency, then you do in fact need to pay for an ID in order to vote
Cashing a check. Which was pointed out about 100 posts ago. The list is nearly endless.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 9, 2011 16:25:33 GMT -5
They're paying for the ID to prove residency. The fee is for the State ID or drivers license remains the same whether I intend to use it for voting purposes or not.One would think citizens of the US would be strongly in favor of reducing and/or eliminating voter fraud. You'd think, eh? It's not even a party specific issue since it would potentially reduce fraud regardless of party affiliation.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Mar 9, 2011 16:26:37 GMT -5
And what one speaks of wanting or planning to do at age 18 as a freshman is a far cry from the reality of what may or may not happen four years later. I'd say that's a valid statement about any age, really. which is why I don't look at students any differently than anyone else that isn't literally tied down to the land they live on....which is all of us. it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm heading home soon and probably won't be on later to check back on this thread. I edited my post while you were posting and added, "BUT if a student DOES graduate and ends up finding employment and living in the community - great; go register to vote." But yes, I will agree to disagree.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 9, 2011 16:28:32 GMT -5
But yes, I will agree to disagree
But in the final analysis, an out of state student can always vote in their home district. There is no issue here.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Mar 9, 2011 16:29:36 GMT -5
They're paying for the ID to prove residency. The fee is for the State ID or drivers license remains the same whether I intend to use it for voting purposes or not.One would think citizens of the US would be strongly in favor of reducing and/or eliminating voter fraud. Here we have six pages of arguing all sorts of twisted and convoluted angles, against taking measures via something as simple as producing an ID to prove residency. We wonder why good paying jobs are being outsourced.
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ChiTownVenture
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Post by ChiTownVenture on Mar 9, 2011 16:48:04 GMT -5
but if you do not need it for any other purpose than to prove residency, then you do in fact need to pay for an ID in order to voteCashing a check. Which was pointed out about 100 posts ago. The list is nearly endless. No ID needed to deposit a check into a bank account, or withdrawal it from an ATM. It's amazing that people are fighting the requirement to have an ID to vote and are not willing to give that ID for free. Voter Registration cards are free, upgrade it to an ID, don't charge, and the problem is solved.
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Mar 9, 2011 18:31:30 GMT -5
I just had an interview with a second year college student about the American Opportunity Credit that should go on her mother's tax return. She was asked to fill out a list of tuiton costs, books, fees and supplies that she needed to buy for last year's attendance. The credit can reduce her mother's taxes by as much as $2,500. She looked at the list and scoffed that "If she, (her mother), wants the $2500, she can fill out the list".
Does this person possess the qualifications to vote , , , anywhere at all?
And what about the local politician's having access to students through various "public service" classes and such? If they can be brainwashed to vote locally, they could overwhelm some communities by their voting bloc.
I say that if they want to vote, make it be where they are permanent, and not at a temporary site such as away from home going to college.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 9, 2011 19:23:42 GMT -5
Life sucks. Get over it.
fugggeddaboutit ;D
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 10, 2011 9:34:53 GMT -5
"Direct" disenfranchisement refers to actions that explicitly prevent people from voting or having their votes counted, as opposed to "indirect" techniques, which attempt to prevent people's votes from having an impact on political outcomes (e.g., gerrymandering, ballot box stuffing, stripping elected officials of their powers). The 15th Amendment prohibited explicit disenfranchisement on the basis of race or prior enslavement. So Southern states devised an array of alternative techniques designed to disenfranchise blacks and, to a lesser extent, poor whites. There were three broad, overlapping phases of the disenfranchisement process. From 1868-1888, the principal techniques of disenfranchisement were illegal, based on violence and massive fraud in the vote counting process. Starting in 1877, when Georgia passed the cumulative poll tax, states implemented statutory methods of disenfranchisement. From 1888-1908, states entrenched these legal techniques in their constitutions. Restrictive and Arbitrary Registraton Practices Southern states made registration difficult, by requiring frequent re-registration, long terms of residence in a district, registration at inconvenient times (e.g., planting season), provision of information unavailable to many blacks (e.g. street addresses, when black neighborhoods lacked street names and numbers), and so forth. When blacks managed to qualify for the vote even under these measures, registrars would use their discretion to deny them the vote anyway. Alabama's constitution of 1901 was explicitly designed to disenfranchise blacks by such restrictive and fraudulent means." www.umich.edu/~lawrace/disenfranchise1.htmIt was wrong then and it's wrong now.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 9:38:21 GMT -5
I was talking about the private businesses that often spring up in college towns ... or at least in the immediate vicinity of the college. This is especially true in small college communities where the student population outnumbers the local population 2 to 1. The students provide the lion's share of consumer spending in these places, and without their influx of money and patronage, those little towns would dry up.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 9:42:27 GMT -5
What does the Constitution say about voting eligibility? I don't recall there being any stipulations in regards to intelligence, IQ, or common sense. I'm sure we can point to any number of friends, neighbors, and co-workers and remember some incredibly stupid thing they've said. Thus targeting one dumb thing said by a college student and painting all students with that same brush is just a tad disingenuous.
The COTUS gives them the right to vote, and that pretty much ends this argument strand.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 10:13:45 GMT -5
The Cloward-Piven, do-to-voting-what-they-did-to-NYC-welfare-rolls strategy has failed. Cloward-Piven "Create a Crisis" strategy depends almost completely on the element of surprise. Since the failed attempt by the far left fringe Democratic Party to steal the election in 2000, REAL Americans are WIDE AWAKE.
Just as the welfare crisis of the late 1980's and 1990's led to welfare reform; we are not in the process of fixing voter fraud as an institution. Other than a few isolated incidents where the number of Democrat votes in a precinct out-numbers the population of that precinct, or where an election judge suddenly finds a stack of votes for Al Franken in the trunk of their car...it's over.
REAL Americans know that there's nothing unreasonable about making sure a voter meets residency requirements and that they must show ID at the polling place to verify they are who they say they are.
REAL Americans can see right through a Party so dependent on voter fraud as an institution that they oppose anything that woud complicate cheating them out of their vote.
WE SEE YOU, DEMOCRATS. WE'RE LOOKING RIGHT AT YOU. I know you want to turn away, I know you want to hide, I know you want to dress up your fear and panic over policies that would thwart you as "concern" for people's "rights" but we see you now. We know who you are. And we're going to dismantle your schemes, and if the economy collapses, and the dollar crashes-- we STILL see you, and we'll STILL do what we do here in America. We'll go right back to the basics. If there's a famine, if there are riots, if there is a plague-- we are so much better than you, and so much better than you give us credit for, that you will sit in stunned amazement as you watch helplessly from the sidelines as we corral you, fence you in, and clean up your mess.
The far left hasn't had an original thought in almost 100 years. They've never had a thought better than our founders. The Constitution, and it's ideological birth parent- the American Declaration of Independence- has never been out done, and it never will be. Not in this life. Not in this Age.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 10, 2011 10:18:38 GMT -5
"REAL Americans know that there's nothing unreasonable about making sure a voter meets residency requirements and that they must show ID at the polling place to verify they are who they say they are."
Yay! Paul thinks I'm a real American!!!
"REAL Americans can see right through a Party so dependent on voter fraud as an institution that they oppose anything that woud complicate cheating them out of their vote."
Oops. Spoke too soon.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 10, 2011 10:26:19 GMT -5
Only land owners (over 21) should be allowed to vote.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 17:14:59 GMT -5
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