Religious Practices in Business

[dondub]

I'm still waiting for some so called Christian to show me anything that Jesus Christ said that was in opposition to gay people. Is just 1 (one) too much to ask?

[mmhmm]

Apr 6, 2015 20:45:14 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Apr 6, 2015 20:33:53 GMT -5 dondub said:

I'm still waiting for some so called Christian to show me anything that Jesus Christ said that was in opposition to gay people. Is just 1 (one) too much to ask?

There's one in the OP of this thread. Although I haven't verified the accuracy of it.

Edit: I just looked it up and here's the verse - ahh, well we can't post bible verses because the "tolerant" folks out there get upset about it , but you'll find it if you search for it. It doesn't say what the customer in the story thought it said, though...

Yup. What the customer wanted written isn't scripture. Additionally, the customer used Leviticus as a source. Leviticus is Old Testament. Jesus Christ could not have said it.

[ArchietheDragon]

Apr 6, 2015 20:45:14 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Apr 6, 2015 20:33:53 GMT -5 dondub said:

I'm still waiting for some so called Christian to show me anything that Jesus Christ said that was in opposition to gay people. Is just 1 (one) too much to ask?

There's one in the OP of this thread. Although I haven't verified the accuracy of it.

Edit: I just looked it up and here's the verse - ahh, well we can't post bible verses because the "tolerant" folks out there get upset about it , but you'll find it if you search for it. It doesn't say what the customer in the story thought it said, though...

[

But Leviticus 18:22 does

[Deleted]

Is someone now suggesting Leviticus was Jesus's words? 

[djAdvocate]

Apr 6, 2015 20:33:53 GMT -5 dondub said:

I'm still waiting for some so called Christian to show me anything that Jesus Christ said that was in opposition to gay people. Is just 1 (one) too much to ask?

Jesus doesn't actually comment on this issue.  it is all OT shit.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 6, 2015 21:04:54 GMT -5 oped said:

Is someone now suggesting Leviticus was Jesus's words? 

that would certainly demonstrate a poor grasp of the history of Christianity.

[dondub]

If the current crop of Christians wanted to run their lives by Leviticus standards gay wedding cake would no longer be an issue.

[EVT1]

I doubt they have read the OT.   They are plainly cherry picking with their 'sincerely held religious beliefs' and are complete hypocrites.

It's not about religion, it is about being bullies to people they don't like.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 7, 2015 1:14:56 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I doubt they have read the OT.   They are plainly cherry picking with their 'sincerely held religious beliefs' and are complete hypocrites.

It's not about religion, it is about being bullies to people they don't like.

Yea. Those 'the gays' getting those special rights, and no one else, is the problem.

....What exactly are those special rights again?

[Deleted]

Quotes by Jesus? Please refer me to the original text... Not some warped sanctimonious ramblings.

[ArchietheDragon]

Apr 7, 2015 8:04:09 GMT -5 oped said:

Quotes by Jesus? Please refer me to the original text... Not some warped sanctimonious ramblings.

Assuming you believe in the Holy Trinity and that the Bible is the Word of God, wouldn't the entire Bible be quotes by Jesus?

[Deleted]

Even in that context, when someone says there are examples in the NT, I expect him to link the NT.

I don't understand how stories by Paul could be quotes by Jesus... But that isn't the first nor likely the last erroneous substitution I will see here today. 

[ArchietheDragon]

Apr 7, 2015 8:12:16 GMT -5 oped said:

Even in that context, when someone says there are examples in the NT, I expect him to link the NT.

I don't understand how stories by Paul could be quotes by Jesus... But that isn't the first nor likely the last erroneous substitution I will see here today. 

Because Paul was just a mouthpiece, writing God's words.   Jesus is God.  Therefore What Paul wrote was Jesus's words. 

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2015 8:14:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 7, 2015 8:04:09 GMT -5 oped said:

Quotes by Jesus? Please refer me to the original text... Not some warped sanctimonious ramblings.

The "warped sanctimonious ramblings" cite an exhaustive list relevant scriptures in both the Old and New Testament.

How about you list them? There was an awful lot of 'interpretation' in that particular link. I'd like some actual quotations.

[Deleted]

I always find it funny when people take Romans 1:18-32 and synthesis it to 'the gays are the problem'....

And I take it you are one of the faction that think the obscure Greek word arsenokoitai in Corinthians MUST have meant the gays.... Most bibles don't translate it that way. It's a very rare word, only two references in print, oh yeah the other one is Tim 1:10....  

[Opti]

Apr 7, 2015 8:15:02 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Apr 7, 2015 8:12:16 GMT -5 oped said:

Even in that context, when someone says there are examples in the NT, I expect him to link the NT.

I don't understand how stories by Paul could be quotes by Jesus... But that isn't the first nor likely the last erroneous substitution I will see here today. 

Because Paul was just a mouthpiece, writing God's words.   Jesus is God.  Therefore What Paul wrote was Jesus's words. 

When Jesus Christ was embodied as God in man, I doubt he was doing any dictating to

prophets as perhaps God the Father was. It bad logic to think otherwise.

IMO Paul wrote what he wrote. It may have been inspired by God but I do not believe he

or anyone was a 100% channel of God the entire of his Godly life.

[Opti]

For those who believe Paul is always a mouthpiece for God or Jesus,

I direct you to 1 Cor 1:13-15 where he is talking about himself.

[Deleted]

I'm not pulling arguments out of my hat. Im answering the challenge that I must 'educate myself'... For any source you pull, I can pull another... 

www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/no_fems_no_fairies.html

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 7:55:56 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 6, 2015 21:19:31 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jesus doesn't actually comment on this issue.  it is all OT shit.

There's several condemnations of it in the NT. For those wishing to educate themselves.

i don't buy that the Sodom story is about gay sex.  i think it is about RAPE.

and the marriage passages mention how cool hetro marriage is, but they do not condemn same sex marriage.

what does that leave?

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 9:45:29 GMT -5 oped said:

I'm not pulling arguments out of my hat. Im answering the challenge that I must 'educate myself'... For any source you pull, I can pull another... 

www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/no_fems_no_fairies.html

i could cite my own sources, as well.  i think this is a completely fair argument, and i don't think the opposing view is solid at all.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 10:29:19 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 7, 2015 9:45:29 GMT -5 oped said:

I'm not pulling arguments out of my hat. Im answering the challenge that I must 'educate myself'... For any source you pull, I can pull another... 

www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/no_fems_no_fairies.html

The difference being that the purpose of my source is specifically to debunk the arguments in your source (or its equivalent), almost point for point.

Read your source, then read my source.

I marvel at how you read yours without cringing at the absurdity of it. "Eunuchs" as a synonym for homosexuals. Leviticus 18 and 20 referring only to cultic practices based on the observation that cultic practices are addressed in Leviticus and thus form the "context" of laws that clearly have nothing to do with them. The rarity of arsenokoitai in classical Greek literature of the time? The condemnation in Romans referring only to Christians who "broke away from their natural sexual orientation" or to temple prostitution, despite there being no evidence whatsoever to support this as the proper and exclusive context?

Read the debunking.

note: i don't think anyone here is arguing that the OT does NOT contain stuff about icky gays.  it does.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 8:06:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Apr 7, 2015 8:04:09 GMT -5 oped said:

Quotes by Jesus? Please refer me to the original text... Not some warped sanctimonious ramblings.

Assuming you believe in the Holy Trinity and that the Bible is the Word of God, wouldn't the entire Bible be quotes by Jesus?

the OT is the word of the Father, not the Son.  i am more of a NT guy.  i realize that rubs a lot of traditional Christians the wrong way, but i prefer to think of my God as a kind and loving one, not a vengeful one.  i tend to think of Jesus as the redeemer, and that the new way forward is one of forgiveness, not retribution. 

i know, silly me.

but let's just stick to chapter and verse, shall we?

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 10:34:27 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 7, 2015 10:23:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i don't buy that the Sodom story is about gay sex.  i think it is about RAPE.

and the marriage passages mention how cool hetro marriage is, but they do not condemn same sex marriage.

what does that leave?

They don't condemn incest or bestiality there either. The matters are clearly, unambiguously condemned elsewhere.

That sexual relations are exclusively between a man and a woman is an absolute, rock-solid prerequisite anywhere sexual relations are described in the Bible.

i didn't ask you that.  i asked where Jesus specifically condemns gay sex.

your move, ace.

[ArchietheDragon]

Apr 7, 2015 10:36:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 7, 2015 8:06:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Assuming you believe in the Holy Trinity and that the Bible is the Word of God, wouldn't the entire Bible be quotes by Jesus?

the OT is the word of the Father, not the Son.  i am more of a NT guy.  i realize that rubs a lot of traditional Christians the wrong way, but i prefer to think of my God as a kind and loving one, not a vengeful one.  i tend to think of Jesus as the redeemer, and that the new way forward is one of forgiveness, not retribution. 

i know, silly me.

but let's just stick to chapter and verse, shall we?

I prefer to think of my God with a strainer on his head.   Go nuts. 

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 10:36:41 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 7, 2015 10:30:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

note: i don't think anyone here is arguing that the OT does NOT contain stuff about icky gays.  it does.

Read oped's link. Lev 18 and 20 are all just a big misunderstanding, according to them.

not interested in the OT discussion, bro.  if you want to argue Leviticus, be my guest.  i don't.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 10:37:32 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Apr 7, 2015 10:36:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the OT is the word of the Father, not the Son.  i am more of a NT guy.  i realize that rubs a lot of traditional Christians the wrong way, but i prefer to think of my God as a kind and loving one, not a vengeful one.  i tend to think of Jesus as the redeemer, and that the new way forward is one of forgiveness, not retribution. 

i know, silly me.

but let's just stick to chapter and verse, shall we?

I prefer to think of my God with a strainer on his head.   Go nuts. 

rAmen!

[happyhoix]

So if we're going to declare gay sex an abomination, are we also going to make our daughters marry their rapists? And stone people who commit adultery? Cause I seriously need to stock up on rocks, if we are. 

Or are we saying that the marry-the-rapist parts and the stone-the-fornicators parts are just things added in by men while they were writing the Bible, based on current social practices, but the gay-hate thing is for real?
 
I get confused by which parts of the Bible are the important parts and which parts everyone ignores now...

[ArchietheDragon]

SPOILER: Click to show

76 things forbidden in Leviticus.

1. Burning any yeast or honey in offerings to God (2:11) [Normal penalty.]

2. Failing to include salt in offerings to God (2:13) [Normal penalty.]

3. Eating fat (3:17) [That one’s “a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.” All fat is to be saved for offerings to God. Normal penalty.]

4. Eating blood (3:17) [Normal penalty]

5. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve witnessed (5:1) [“They will be held responsible.”]

6. Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1) [Which sounds like hearsay. At any rate, “they shall be held responsible.”]

7. Touching an unclean animal (5:2) [NIV translates this as touching “the carcass” of an unclean animal. So if Rover dies, or you’re a worker in a pork plant, you’re in trouble here. Normal penalty.]

8. Carelessly making an oath (5:4) [Even if you don’t realize you have. Normal penalty.]

9. Deceiving a neighbour about something trusted to them (6:2) [Return the item and a 20% penalty, plus normal penalty.]

10. Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3) [Return the item and a 20% penalty, plus normal penalty.]

11. Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1) [God will smite you.]

12. Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6) [“You will die” and God will be angry at everyone. May only apply to the priesthood.]

13. Tearing your clothes (10:6) [“You will die” and God will be angry at everyone. May only apply to the priesthood.]

14. Drinking alcohol in holy places (bit of a problem for Catholics, this ‘un) (10:9) [“You will die.” May only apply to the priesthood.]

15. Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7) [“You will be unclean.]

16. Touching the carcass of any of the above (problems here for rugby) (11:8) [“You will be unclean.”]

17. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12) [“You will be unclean.”]

18. Eating – or touching the carcass of – eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. (11:13-19) [“You will be unclean.”]

19. Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22) [“You will be unclean.”]

20. Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (good news for cats) (11:27) [“You will be unclean.” Also applies to touching their carcasses.]

21. Eating – or touching the carcass of – the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard,the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon (11:29) [“You will be unclean.”]

22. Eating – or touching the carcass of – any creature which crawls on many legs, or its belly (11:41-42) [“You will be unclean.”]

23. Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4) [Actually, she’s unclean a week, and then another 33 days. Then she has to offer up a sacrifice.]

24. Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5) [Actually, she’s unclean a week, and then another 66 days. Then she has to offer up a sacrifice.]

25. Having sex with your mother (18:7) [The penalty for all the sexual sins in ch. 18 is that the participants are to be “cut off” from their people. Some have additional penalties mentioned below.]

26. Having sex with your father’s wife (18:8) [In 20:11, both are to be put to death.]

27. Having sex with your sister (18:9) [In 20:17, if you marry her, both are to be “publicly removed from their people”]

28. Having sex with your granddaughter (18:10)

29. Having sex with your half-sister (18:11)

30. Having sex with your biological aunt (18:12-13) [In 20:19, he will be held responsible for the dishonor.]

31. Having sex with your uncle’s wife (18:14) [In 20:20, they are held responsible for the dishonor, “they will die childless”]

32. Having sex with your daughter-in-law (18:15) [In 20:12, both are to be put to death.]

33. Having sex with your sister-in-law (18:16) [In 20:21, if you marry her, “they will be childless.”]

34. Having sex with a woman and also having sex with her daughter or granddaughter (bad news for Alan Clark) (18:17) [No specific penalty given, but per 20:14 if you marry both of them, all three of you are to be “burned in fire.”]

35. Marrying your wife’s sister while your wife still lives (18:18)

36. Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19) [15:24 simply says the man will be considered unclean for 7 days. In 20:18, “Both of them are to be cut off from their people”]

37. Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20) [In 20:10, both are to be put to death.]

38. Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21) [In 20:2, the person is to be stoned to death.]

39. Having sex with a man “as one does with a woman” (18:22) [In 20:13, both are to be put to death.]

40. Having sex with an animal (18:23) [In 20:15, both are to be killed.]

41. Making idols or “metal gods” (19:4) [No penalty given.]

42. Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9) [To be left for the poor. No penalty given.]

43. Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10) [To be left for the poor. No penalty given.]

44. Stealing (19:11) [No penalty given.]

45. Lying (19:11) [No penalty given.]

46. Swearing falsely on God’s name (19:12) [No penalty given.]

47. Defrauding your neighbour (19:13) [No penalty given.]

48. Holding back the wages of an employee overnight (not well observed these days) (19:13) [No penalty given.]

49. Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14) [No penalty given.]

50. Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15) [No penalty given.]

51. Spreading slander (19:16) [No penalty given.]

52. Doing anything to endanger a neighbour’s life (19:16) [No penalty given.]

53. Seeking revenge or bearing a grudge (19:18) [No penalty given.]

54. Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19) [No penalty given.]

55. Cross-breeding animals (19:19) [No penalty given.]

56. Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19) [No penalty given.]

57. Sleeping with another man’s slave (19:20) [“Due punishment,” but not death, just a ram for sacrifice.]

58. Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23) [No penalty given. May only apply to fruit trees planted in Israel.]

59. Practising divination or seeking omens (tut, tut astrology) (19:26) [No penalty, but in 20:6 they will be “cut off from their people” by God. In 20:27, they are to be stoned to death.]

60. Trimming your beard (19:27) [No penalty given.]

61. Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27) [No penalty given.]

62. Getting tattoos (19:28) [No penalty given.]

63. Making your daughter prostitute herself (19:29) [“The land will turn to prostitution.” No other penalty given.]

64. Turning to mediums or spiritualists (19:31) [No penalty given.]

65. Not standing in the presence of the elderly (19:32) [No penalty given.]

66. Mistreating foreigners – “the foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34) [No penalty given.]

67. Using dishonest weights and scales (19:35-36) [No penalty given.]

68. Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9) [Death, as noted.]

69. Marrying a prostitute, divorcee or widow if you are a priest (21:7,13) [No penalty given.]

70. Entering a place where there’s a dead body as a priest (21:11) [I.e., if you’re a priest. No penalty given.]

71. Slaughtering a cow/sheep and its young on the same day (22:28) [May apply only to sacrificial animals. No penalty given.]

72. Working on the Sabbath (23:3) [No penalty given.]

73. Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death) (24:14) [Death.]

74. Inflicting an injury; killing someone else’s animal; killing a person must be punished in kind (24:17-22) [Killing someone means death. Injuring someone mean punishment in kind. Killing or injuring another’s animal means punishment in kind.]

75. Selling land permanently (25:23) [No penalty given.]

76. Selling an Israelite as a slave (foreigners are fine) (25:42) [No penalty given.]

Quite the list. Not many Christians today would go for all of those … but most would consider some of them as laudable commandments still applicable today.

And for good measure,I’ll add this little bit (Leviticus 35-37):

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 10:50:44 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 7, 2015 10:37:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i didn't ask you that.  i asked where Jesus specifically condemns gay sex.

your move, ace.

Jesus Christ is the Logos (the "Word", or "Spokesman"), the God of the Old Testament, as numerous scriptures tell us. He delivered the Law and the first Covenant to Israel. He later returned to fulfill (i.e. fill to the full, complete) the Law and institute the New Covenant, as numerous scriptures tell us.

He very unambiguously condemns gay sex (men lying with men as with women) in his Law. There's certainly no need for the Bible to quote him repeating the admonitions of Leviticus line for line when the Law he'd be quoting is the very same Law he delivered to Israel.

your non-answer will do.

i don't accept that interpretation, but from it i would gather that your answer is "no".

edit: i realize that you THINK you are answering the question.  but that is because you don't accept it as a valid question, not because you are actually answering it.  we both know this, so there is no further need to discuss the matter, Virgil.  i also accept that you are a righteous man, Virgil, so i am not condemning you in any way.  we just have an irreconcilable difference of opinion, and i am sure you KNOW you are right, but your "right" does not work for me. 

[djAdvocate]

Apr 7, 2015 10:57:34 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

So if we're going to declare gay sex an abomination, are we also going to make our daughters marry their rapists? And stone people who commit adultery? Cause I seriously need to stock up on rocks, if we are. 

Or are we saying that the marry-the-rapist parts and the stone-the-fornicators parts are just things added in by men while they were writing the Bible, based on current social practices, but the gay-hate thing is for real?
 
I get confused by which parts of the Bible are the important parts and which parts everyone ignores now...

i have pointed it out often, but i will point it out one more time here.

Jesus does not specifically condemn gay sex in the NT.  he does, however, condemn divorce.  for some reason, people like Gingrich (twice divorced, thrice?) seem quite comfortable pontificating about the evils of gay sex, but NEVER about the evils of divorce.  until they do, i will be convinced that they don't care one stitch about our lord and savior, only about the fire and brimstone of the OT, and it's power to punish.