Turns out Phil Robertson is a nutball after all

[cael]

My parents both grew up Catholic, and now self-identify as liberal Christian (dad) and Buddhist (mom), but go to and raised their children in a UU church. In Sunday school we were educated about different religions of the world, and our church celebrated the typical Christian/Catholic holidays. Some of our ministers have been theists, some haven't been. All I can say is, without anyone saying things to me or putting ideas in my head, even when I was as young as 6-7 I remember having thoughts of what cool stories god and angels were... but I couldn't make myself believe it was real. Same thing with fairies and elves, which were a theme at school in the younger grades - cool story bro, but, it can't *really* be real, right? My parents are cool with whatever I think.

I can only imagine children in similar situations in different areas of the world would feel unable to express these questions and feelings if they arose, if they live in a very religious society where it isn't as acceptable as it is here to be atheist or question things. I feel lucky to have been born into a society where I feel comfortable outing those feelings, despite being raised in a church. (no matter how liberal and accepting the church is). So I guess whether I'd been born into a Christian, Catholic, Muslim family - my point is as me, I believe I would have had the same thought processes.

[Deleted]

But even here, depending on your family, and comunuty, you might not have felt so free to express yourself.

[swamp]

Mar 30, 2015 2:04:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 30, 2015 1:12:34 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I've been questioning religion since childhood. I was the bane of my mother's existence.

"It's in the bible, that's why! Now go away and stop pestering me!"

I imagine my Hindu parents would say "It's in the Vedas, that's why! Now go away and stop pestering me!"

That's remarkable. I've never met a lapsed Christian with clueless parents before.

And in Quebec you say?

To borrow an expression from a wise old polar bear, I don't think you're quite that special a snowflake.

You really need to get out more.

I've met clueless devout people, and clueless atheists.

[Deleted]

Mar 30, 2015 8:28:56 GMT -5 oped said:

But even here, depending on your family, and comunuty, you might not have felt so free to express yourself.

Very true, I didn't reveal my beliefs to several family members until I was 34. I still won't share them at work l just shut up when people bring up the topic. My boss is a very intelligent, good guy, but I absolutely will not even hint at my views to him because I'm 90% sure it would lower his opinion of me and potentially impact my work.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 30, 2015 4:49:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Mar 30, 2015 2:04:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

That's remarkable. I've never met a lapsed Christian with clueless parents before.

And in Quebec you say?

To borrow an expression from a wise old polar bear, I don't think you're quite that special a snowflake.

I have no idea what you mean. Clueless parents in Quebec? My parents were staunch believers, and I fail to see what Quebec has to do with it. I questioned everything religious, and they would become very exasperated with me. We went to church every Sunday and I wanted to be an altar girl. It wasn't allowed in Russian Orthodoxy. Still isn't. I found it grossly unfair. All they ever heard from me was "But why? But why?"

Your insult about "special snowflakes" doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I've learned to expect that from you.

Quebec is a bastion of secularism. By no coincidence, you're a secularist. I challenge you to procure an example of any significant moral doctrine or belief you hold that isn't shared by at least 30% of Quebecers.

My comment about the "special snowflake" is skeptical of the insinuation that your moral beliefs are a function of your astute reasoning abilities. I suppose that could be the case, but letting one's religion lapse (or paying twice-a-year lip service to it, or going through daily motions without really believing in it) certainly doesn't require great reasoning abilities. You looked for answers, found none, concluded there were none, and defaulted to the prevailing moral attitudes of your society. I'm guessing the very same can be said for the majority of people the world over.

I call your parents "clueless" because if they're staunch believers and they blow off questions from their children for sake of not knowing or caring about the answers, they're being negligent in their spiritual tutelage. At the very least, the answer should be "Why don't we ask the priest at church when we attend next week?", and if the priest can't answer the question, start looking for a different church.

[weltschmerz]

Oh, for heaven's sake, Virgil. I didn't become an atheist until I was in my 30s and living in the USA. Quebec has nothing to do with it. Evidently, you know me better than I do, so continue with this line of reasoning.

My parents finding another church? There was only one Russian Orthodox church in Montreal.  The thought of switching to, say, Catholicism, was unthinkable. Don't you know that Russian Orthodoxy is the "one true religion"? That's the very definition of Russian Orthodoxy, or "Pravoslavia".  It literally translates to "the right faith", as opposed to all the wrong ones.

They did send me to Sunday school. The priests were useless.

 If I'd ask them "If God made me perfect, then why am I not good enough to serve at the altar?"

They would tell me to sit down and we'll get back to our lesson about the martyrs.

If slandering my deceased parents brings you some measure of comfort, knock yourself out.

[Virgil Showlion]

We'll have to agree to disagree about Quebec. You yourself have described it as "vehemently secular" on several occasions, and I've been around there enough not to disagree with you.

I'm sorry for my remarks about your parents. "Clueless" is too harsh a word. I was expressing my general frustration with the "It's in the bible, that's why! Now go away and stop pestering me!" attitude you described.

My grandmother (still living) grew up in the Ukrainian Orthodox church. She severed relations with them entirely before I was born. I don't know why, but I get the impression she was told to shut up and never mind a lot.

[Deleted]

Probably pay up too. We still have some trouble with MIL in Romanian Orthodox Church feeling she has to pay the priest for certain things because otherwise he won't bless things or conduct her funeral when the time comes.

[weltschmerz]

Mar 30, 2015 13:03:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

We'll have to agree to disagree about Quebec. You yourself have described it as "vehemently secular" on several occasions, and I've been around there enough not to disagree with you.

I'm sorry for my remarks about your parents. "Clueless" is too harsh a word. I was expressing my general frustration with the "It's in the bible, that's why! Now go away and stop pestering me!" attitude you described.

My grandmother (still living) grew up in the Ukrainian Orthodox church. She severed relations with them entirely before I was born. I don't know why, but I get the impression she was told to shut up and never mind a lot.

It is. However, our household was very religious. We went to church, Sunday school, fasted 40 days during Lent, had the house blessed each year, weren't allowed to work on Sundays....the whole nine yards.

I was a devout Christian until I was in my 30s.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 30, 2015 13:11:53 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Mar 30, 2015 13:03:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

We'll have to agree to disagree about Quebec. You yourself have described it as "vehemently secular" on several occasions, and I've been around there enough not to disagree with you.

I'm sorry for my remarks about your parents. "Clueless" is too harsh a word. I was expressing my general frustration with the "It's in the bible, that's why! Now go away and stop pestering me!" attitude you described.

My grandmother (still living) grew up in the Ukrainian Orthodox church. She severed relations with them entirely before I was born. I don't know why, but I get the impression she was told to shut up and never mind a lot.

It is. However, our household was very religious. We went to church, Sunday school, fasted 40 days during Lent, had the house blessed each year, weren't allowed to work on Sundays....the whole nine yards.

I was a devout Christian until I was in my 30s.

As you say, I don't know enough about you to comment.

I'll mention that I do make a distinction between "devout" and "practicing", in the former connotes a strong belief that one's religious observance is right and necessary. I know many Christians lose faith, "run on empty" (so to speak) for a period of years or decades hoping to rekindle it by staying committed to their religious practices, and then eventually fall away entirely, letting their actions conform to what they've believed in their hearts all along.

Biblical prophecy us that the end times will be marked by a great desertion (great apostasy) which, in the context of other scriptures, will apparently be so great in magnitude that Luke 18:8 laments "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"  This desertion won't entirely be in the form of people walking away from Christianity. It will undoubtedly also comprise countless people who pay lip service to their religion and who go through the motions without really knowing what they believe and why they believe it, and from countless more who will think they know Christ and have all the right bumper stickers, but who have no real conception of who Christ is and was, and what he stood for.

At any rate, you needn't worry about a shortage of angry, disillusioned ex-Christians or scripturally ignorant "Jesus Freaks" in the years ahead.

[weltschmerz]

Mar 30, 2015 14:26:15 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 30, 2015 13:11:53 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It is. However, our household was very religious. We went to church, Sunday school, fasted 40 days during Lent, had the house blessed each year, weren't allowed to work on Sundays....the whole nine yards.

I was a devout Christian until I was in my 30s.

As you say, I don't know enough about you to comment.

I'll mention that I do make a distinction between "devout" and "practicing", in the former connotes a strong belief that one's religious observance is right and necessary. I know many Christians lose faith, "run on empty" (so to speak) for a period of years or decades hoping to rekindle it by staying committed to their religious practices, and then eventually fall away entirely, letting their actions conform to what they've believed in their hearts all along.

Biblical prophecy us that the end times will be marked by a great desertion (great apostasy) which, in the context of other scriptures, will apparently be so great in magnitude that Luke 18:8 laments "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"  This desertion won't entirely be in the form of people walking away from Christianity. It will undoubtedly also comprise countless people who pay lip service to their religion and who go through the motions without really knowing what they believe and why they believe it, and from countless more who will think they know Christ and have all the right bumper stickers, but who have no real conception of who Christ is and was, and what he stood for.

At any rate, you needn't worry about a shortage of angry, disillusioned ex-Christians or Well, scripturally ignorant "Jesus Freaks" in the years ahead.

Well, why stop now? You certainly didn't hesitate before.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 30, 2015 14:39:11 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Mar 30, 2015 14:26:15 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

As you say, I don't know enough about you to comment.

I'll mention that I do make a distinction between "devout" and "practicing", in the former connotes a strong belief that one's religious observance is right and necessary. I know many Christians lose faith, "run on empty" (so to speak) for a period of years or decades hoping to rekindle it by staying committed to their religious practices, and then eventually fall away entirely, letting their actions conform to what they've believed in their hearts all along.

Biblical prophecy us that the end times will be marked by a great desertion (great apostasy) which, in the context of other scriptures, will apparently be so great in magnitude that Luke 18:8 laments "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"  This desertion won't entirely be in the form of people walking away from Christianity. It will undoubtedly also comprise countless people who pay lip service to their religion and who go through the motions without really knowing what they believe and why they believe it, and from countless more who will think they know Christ and have all the right bumper stickers, but who have no real conception of who Christ is and was, and what he stood for.

At any rate, you needn't worry about a shortage of angry, disillusioned ex-Christians or Well, scripturally ignorant "Jesus Freaks" in the years ahead.

Well, why stop now? You certainly didn't hesitate before.

I expected that if any part of my assessment was wrong, you'd set the record straight. And you did.

ETA: You may have noticed that I'm not a terribly subtle or diplomatic individual.

[EVT1]

Virgil is correct- all religions cannot be right. But they can all be wrong

I fail to see the difference between people that follow the authors of the Bible or L. Ron Hubbard.

I was raised Catholic- went to church everyday, was an altar boy, went to Catholic grade school and high school- that's the way it worked in the family- just like Mitt's kids I am sure are Mormons, and on down the line.  Being on your knees with a rosary or having a bomb strapped to you in a marketplace both come from the same roots.  It was how you were raised and who you your peers were.  Then one day you think for yourself. 

You pick (or don't pick) one that works for you and hopefully it is a non-violent one.