Two Alternatives

[Virgil Showlion]

To Christians (and non-Christians), our present age presents two alternatives:

1. "Thus said the LORD, Stand you in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and you shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." (AKJV, Jeremiah 6:16)
   
   "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying." (AKJV, Romans 13:13)
   
   Adhere to God's design for sex. Avoid drunkenness. Understand that following these guidelines not only has deep spiritual and physical benefits, it also helps us to avoid dangerous pitfalls.
   
   
2. Contend with sexual disease, unwanted pregnancy, relationship penalties, and the many evils God's Law spares us from, reaping instead meager benefits such as these or these, and find yourself angrily and pointlessly debating whether a man too drunk to reasonably assess a woman's ability to consent who sleeps with a woman too drunk to reasonably offer consent is raping her or not.

To my fellow Christians: choose the first alternative. Obey God. Don't take the risks. Reap the benefits. Avoid the penalties.

Remember, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27, AKJV)

Have a profitable Sabbath.

[thyme4change]

Maybe we should just go back to getting married at a young age because teenagers are so horny.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 20, 2015 18:19:32 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Maybe we should just go back to getting married at a young age because teenagers are so horny.

I think we should hold our teenagers to a higher standard, and teach them to hold themselves to a higher standard.

I admit it's a formidable challenge in the 21st Century. It's family and church versus Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga, and the world.

[Deleted]

When wasn't it?

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 20, 2015 18:25:58 GMT -5 oped said:

When wasn't it?

In various places at various times.

[Deleted]

In your dreams?

[thyme4change]

Meh - I think people should have many experiences as young people.  I think a lot of our moral standings we get from the church have caused a lot of our problems.

I thought we weren't allowed to open religious discussions and sermons disguised as posts.  Did the rules change, or are only moderators allowed to post their beliefs?

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 20, 2015 18:28:57 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Meh - I think people should have many experiences as young people.  I think a lot of our moral standings we get from the church have caused a lot of our problems.

I thought we weren't allowed to open religious discussions and sermons disguised as posts.  Did the rules change, or are only moderators allowed to post their beliefs?

This is the Religious Discussion board created for discussion of religious topics.

You're through the looking glass now.

[mmhmm]

Mar 20, 2015 18:28:57 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Meh - I think people should have many experiences as young people.  I think a lot of our moral standings we get from the church have caused a lot of our problems.

I thought we weren't allowed to open religious discussions and sermons disguised as posts.  Did the rules change, or are only moderators allowed to post their beliefs?

This discussion is occurring in the Religious Discussion forum. That's what this forum is here for.


ETA: Oops. Virgil beat me to it.

[mmhmm]

I raised my kids in Southern California in the 60s and 70s. They've managed to make it to their 50s without any horribly adverse events tearing up their lives. It can be done.

[Deleted]

So the 60-70 were an easier time to do that do you think ?

[thyme4change]

Mar 20, 2015 18:44:49 GMT -5 oped said:

So the 60-70 were an easier time to do that do you think ?

Before that, premature babies weighed 11 pounds.

[Opti]

Virgil I think our present age offers more than just two alternatives.

FWIW, my upbringing and personality type saved me from these

drunk sex issues that seem to plague others.

[Deleted]

What saves me is a general assumption that I am neither immune nor superior to the plights of others.

[mmhmm]

Mar 20, 2015 18:44:49 GMT -5 oped said:

So the 60-70 were an easier time to do that do you think ?

No, I don't think it was an easier time, necessarily. There was a lot of change going on during that time. I think it's more about who you are, who your kids are, and what's imparted as good rules to live by. It worked for us.

[mmhmm]

Mar 20, 2015 18:49:17 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:44:49 GMT -5 oped said:

So the 60-70 were an easier time to do that do you think ?

Before that, premature babies weighed 11 pounds.

LOL! Not mine! One weighed just at 5 lbs and the other didn't quite make 5 lbs. 

[thyme4change]

We had a "family secrets" thread and I remember several people found out that their Grandparents or Parents lied to them about their wedding date, and lo and behold the math says that their baby was conceived out of wedlock.  We are just more honest about things now.

Given that the bible gives us dozens of instructions on what you are suppose to with women of loose morals - this is not a new problem.  

[Deleted]

Motherhood... The second oldest profession...

[thyme4change]

Mar 20, 2015 18:59:40 GMT -5 oped said:

What saves me is a general assumption that I am neither immune nor superior to the plights of others.

Superior might be a strong word - but I am pretty sure you think you are a little bit better than most people.  

[Deleted]

Hmm. I don't think I'm better, I don't think? I might think my opinions are more right

Do I really come off as thinking I'm better? Point it out. Seriously, I'd like to work on it...

[thyme4change]

LOL - maybe that is a better way to put it "You think your opinions are more right."  But...don't we all.






I still hate yoga.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 20, 2015 18:45:18 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

debating whether a man too drunk to reasonably assess a woman's ability to consent who sleeps with a woman too drunk to reasonably offer consent is raping her or not.

So, you're position in that debate is to tell the kids the bible says drinking and sex are wrong, and the problem will just magically go away.  Okie dokie.  Good luck with that.

It's not just about telling them.  It's about living a Christian lifestyle, raising them into that lifestyle from infancy, and instilling within them the desire to continue in it when they set out on their own. It's also about teaching them to value God's priorities over the priorities of the self and the priorities of the society.

I hold no delusions that such children never rebel, especially considering the pervasive attitudes in today's society, but I've lived long enough to witness families, congregations, etc. meet with numerous successes to relatively few rejections (easily 7 to 1). I've seen devout patriarchs and matriarchs give rise to God-fearing children, God-fearing grandchildren, and God-fearing great grandchildren.

It can be done.

For non-Christians, I don't know how to successfully instill counter-cultural lessons within children. I'm sure there are many books written about it, and all of them sell extremely well.

Incidentally, the Bible doesn't say that "drinking and sex are wrong". Drunkenness and adultery (which includes fornication) are wrong. The Law is about establishing guidelines on how to enjoy good things without being hurt by them.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 20, 2015 19:20:30 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

We had a "family secrets" thread and I remember several people found out that their Grandparents or Parents lied to them about their wedding date, and lo and behold the math says that their baby was conceived out of wedlock.  We are just more honest about things now.

Given that the bible gives us dozens of instructions on what you are suppose to with women of loose morals - this is not a new problem.  

It's definitely not a new problem. We can agree on that much.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Mar 20, 2015 22:02:13 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:45:18 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, you're position in that debate is to tell the kids the bible says drinking and sex are wrong, and the problem will just magically go away.  Okie dokie.  Good luck with that.

It's not just about telling them.  It's about living a Christian lifestyle, raising them into that lifestyle from infancy, and instilling within them the desire to continue in it when they set out on their own. It's also about teaching them to value God's priorities over the priorities of the self and the priorities of the society.

I hold no delusions that such children never rebel, especially considering the pervasive attitudes in today's society, but I've lived long enough to witness families, congregations, etc. meet with numerous successes to relatively few rejections (easily 7 to 1). I've seen devout patriarchs and matriarchs give rise to God-fearing children, God-fearing grandchildren, and God-fearing great grandchildren.

It can be done.

For non-Christians, I don't know how to successfully instill counter-cultural lessons within children. I'm sure there are many books written about it, and all of them sell extremely well.

Incidentally, the Bible doesn't say that "drinking and sex are wrong". Drunkenness and adultery (which includes fornication) are wrong. The Law is about establishing guidelines on how to enjoy good things without being hurt by them.

I (and my 3 brothers) were raised in a "Christian" home. We went to Church every Sunday. When we were small, we went into a separate room/area for what was called "Sunday School" - children's Bible stories & lessons mostly, while the parents and older kids attended services.

Once we got older, say 8-9 yrs old and up, we started sitting in the congregation and taking part in the service.

When we reached our teens, my parents let us decide whether to attend services, continue our faith without having to attend a formal service, or take another path if that was our choice.

To our credit, none of us turned out to break any laws, commit crimes, or get arrested.

They instilled *moral* values into us by the way they raised us, and the everyday lessons and guidelines they taught us to live by. We didn't feel the need to attend church every Sunday to hold onto those values.

I'm Protestant by birth, my DH was Ukrainian Catholic. Two completely different set of "rules". We both held our own beliefs in our hearts and lived in harmony.

(Though the Priests/Nuns in his church tried to 'convert' me, they also respected my need to follow my own path).

I still attend church if I'm feeling a need for guidance or comfort, but don't feel the need to attend every Sunday just to be seen.

I can hold onto my faith without having to enter a building.

[weltschmerz]

Mar 20, 2015 22:02:13 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:45:18 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, you're position in that debate is to tell the kids the bible says drinking and sex are wrong, and the problem will just magically go away.  Okie dokie.  Good luck with that.

It's not just about telling them.  It's about living a Christian lifestyle, raising them into that lifestyle from infancy, and instilling within them the desire to continue in it when they set out on their own. It's also about teaching them to value God's priorities over the priorities of the self and the priorities of the society.

I hold no delusions that such children never rebel, especially considering the pervasive attitudes in today's society, but I've lived long enough to witness families, congregations, etc. meet with numerous successes to relatively few rejections (easily 7 to 1). I've seen devout patriarchs and matriarchs give rise to God-fearing children, God-fearing grandchildren, and God-fearing great grandchildren.

It can be done.

For non-Christians, I don't know how to successfully instill counter-cultural lessons within children. I'm sure there are many books written about it, and all of them sell extremely well.

Incidentally, the Bible doesn't say that "drinking and sex are wrong". Drunkenness and adultery (which includes fornication) are wrong. The Law is about establishing guidelines on how to enjoy good things without being hurt by them.

And if they DO rebel, we can take them to the outskirts of town and stone them to death. It's in the bible.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2015 18:27:37 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:25:58 GMT -5 oped said:

When wasn't it?

In various places at various times.

That's not an answer. Really, when wasn't it?

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 29, 2015 15:18:51 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:27:37 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

In various places at various times.

That's not an answer. Really, when wasn't it?

My grandparents both grew up in western Canada, in smaller towns. Everybody knew everybody.

A girl getting pregnant out of wedlock was a town-wide scandal. There was a shotgun wedding and an entire town's worth of scrutiny to make sure no more "accidents" happened.

You can argue all you want that everybody was secretly sleeping around, secretly aborting their babies, secretly getting drunk and partying it up. Even if that completely baseless supposition is true, the public standard was still "sex = marriage" and all these vices had to be engaged in secret.

What's the standard today? Can it even be called a standard?

Try not to pick up a disease. Don't accidentally suffocate yourself. Get drunk before you sleep with her so she can't claim 'rape' if things go sour. In the front, out comes a runt. In the rear, you're in the clear?

[thyme4change]

Not all the extra marital sex that is happening is drunken-rape-ish sex.  People can care about and love each other without getting married.  And people can respect each other.  Don't let your entire opinion of sex be shaped by a group of frat boys.  

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2015 22:02:13 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

For non-Christians, I don't know how to successfully instill counter-cultural lessons within children. I'm sure there are many books written about it, and all of them sell extremely well.

Incidentally, the Bible doesn't say that "drinking and sex are wrong". Drunkenness and adultery (which includes fornication) are wrong. The Law is about establishing guidelines on how to enjoy good things without being hurt by them.

DH and I get mistaken for being very devoutly religious a lot.  We get asked which church we go to, as if of course we attend.  We're in general very staid people.  DH doesn't drink at all, I don't wear makeup, both of us are very buttoned up and law abiding, no tattoos, I only have one piercing per ear.  We've only had sex with each other, no one else, though we cohabitated for 8 years before marriage to make sure we worked well together.  

That's just a combo of basic personalities, family histories and luck.  I have deep admiration for artistic people and what they create, but I got told "stop wasting paint" and similar comments in art class, not kidding, or those silent looks at the art    My personality is serious and straightforward, my life matches.


DH was raised in a very religious household that went to Church every weekend.  His parents' initial divorce when he was 13 included drugs bad enough to require rehab, cheating and bankruptcy, and was followed by several more remarriages and divorces.  Ironically, DH's gay uncle is the family outcast 

DH personally believes in God, but has little personal use for organized religion or people who claim their way is the Truth.

I was raised without religion. Not against, just without.  I was surprised to learn as a kid that Christianity was a real thing, not a TV thing.   As someone who was raised without religion, I find the array of available religions to choose from rather dizzying.  There are a LOT of religions and splinters if all are possible candidates.  The odds that any one of them is the Absolute Truth seems low, given the sheer volume and contention within factions.  If I had to choose only one to save my soul, there is no clear best answer, all claim to be the way, none can verify.  Few acknowledge other religions can co exist and also be a right way.

Mostly I've settled on Deism as the likely odds if one exists.  I certainly don't try to force that as the "truth" though, I can't back it up at all.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure shotgun weddings really honour the biblical standards you are espousing. And from what I know of those times, affairs were pretty common. I know that adultery specifically makes the top ten, I don't recall premarital sex being there. I'm not sure they had any easier a time maintaining the standard, or were any more successful at it.