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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 18:26:43 GMT -5
" George Carlin was an idiot." - Virgil S. "Anyone that believes this either hasn't heard him... or they weren't listening." - Richard
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 19:04:37 GMT -5
You presented the article. It's appropriate to cite it as "your" article. Notwithstanding that, my reasonable assumption was (and is) that you agree with Mr. Blest. Language is a tool for communicating. To insinuate that its primary function is to conceal truth is absurdly cynical. As for the second quote: I suppose we should all screw saving the trees, saving the bees, saving the whales, and saving the planet, Mr. Carlin? Yes, some people take these ideals to a ridiculous extreme; yes, some people cause far more harm than good in their pursuit of these ideals; and yes, some people (*cough* IPCC *cough*) flirt with disaster in their hubristic plans to save the planet. But are you arguing that we should abandon these ideals? Is our arrogance so profound, these ideals so beyond our grasp, that the better option is to sit back and forgo any attempts at reforming ourselves? Where is the light in this well of cynicism? Even the doomsayers over at zerohedge (who, by the way, adore Mr. Carlin) aren't this cynical. Their mistrust and antipathy is limited mostly to the political/financial elite. Mr. Carlin apparently resented anyone who dared try saving a tree or a whale. Anyone thinking of saying, "Oh, you're taking him too seriously": I don't take him as seriously as his fans do. People believe in this man. i don't agree with Mr Best so much as i disagree with you. Carlin doesn't meet the definition of idiot in any sense of the term. i am not going to comment on the rest of what you said, other than it appears you don't find cynicism funny. that makes sense, actually. you are one of the most cynical posters i have ever encountered: the US is collapsing into an inflationary black hole, etc.... sheesh. if ever there was a person that needed to lighten up, you need not call out Carlin, bro. edit: as to the second quote, i actually thought you would AGREE with it. silly me. but that is great. i don't agree with it, either. and with that rare moment of agreement, i think i will call it a day. I suppose "idiot" isn't the right term. The man was foolish. He was a demagogue. As for my "cynicism": - please quote me or link to my posts when pointing out examples
- pessimism isn't necessarily cynicism; being critical of bad trends or bad policies isn't necessarily cynicism
- I nearly always limit my "cynical" views to the assessment of situations and doctrines; I don't extend them to people, and the scope of my cynicism doesn't comprise even a tenth of Mr. Carlin's quarry.
- I champion alternatives whenever possible. If I'm skeptical of the Republicans' and Democrats' ability to reform, I promote voting for third parties. If I'm skeptical of North America's prosperous future, I present practices/attitudes I believe will help fellow citizens in preparing for the coming Depression. Insofar as anything I've seen of Mr. Carlin's invective, the man doesn't bother with even the pretense of alternatives.
- you fail to give me due credit for instances where I take up optimistic positions, possibly because these are rarely ever positions we debate at length. As for Mr. Carlin, there doesn't seem to be any topic under the heavens the man wasn't cynical about.
Look through my thread history. There's everything from birther conspiracies to chemtrails to police advocacy to a thread literally titled "People are Wonderful" wherein I extol the fact that people are wonderful. I try to keep an open mind. That's to say nothing of the dozens of goofy or lighthearted threads in the list.
Thread for thread, your thread record is even more critical than mine is. You see problems and you talk about them. You usually do it without a "people suck and everything man does sucks" attitude permeating every word. Hence I don't consider you to be cynic, and you should afford me the same license.
"People suck and everything man does sucks" is the sine qua non of practically everything Mr. Carlin is famous for.
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2015 20:01:37 GMT -5
Not a chance that I will believe that. Much of his comedy was not at all that way. The difference between baseball and football, for one. And his bit about "Stuff" for another. (Just to name two off the top of my head.) His social commentary probably focused on that a lot, but that seems natural. After all, there is no need to engage in social commentary if everything is going well. That commentary by its very nature addresses (at least perceived) problems or ills. I suppose I'll have to re-watch some of his videos to see more of his "comedy" rather than commentary. Fortunately, I've got (by actual count) 14 of them in my library.
www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+george+carlin+baseball+vs+football&FORM=VIRE4#view=detail&mid=721C06861732E3871298721C06861732E3871298
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 27, 2015 20:06:19 GMT -5
i don't agree with Mr Best so much as i disagree with you. Carlin doesn't meet the definition of idiot in any sense of the term. i am not going to comment on the rest of what you said, other than it appears you don't find cynicism funny. that makes sense, actually. you are one of the most cynical posters i have ever encountered: the US is collapsing into an inflationary black hole, etc.... sheesh. if ever there was a person that needed to lighten up, you need not call out Carlin, bro. edit: as to the second quote, i actually thought you would AGREE with it. silly me. but that is great. i don't agree with it, either. and with that rare moment of agreement, i think i will call it a day. I suppose "idiot" isn't the right term. The man was foolish. He was a demagogue. As for my "cynicism": - please quote me or link to my posts when pointing out examples
- pessimism isn't necessarily cynicism; being critical of bad trends or bad policies isn't necessarily cynicism
- I nearly always limit my "cynical" views to the assessment of situations and doctrines; I don't extend them to people, and the scope of my cynicism doesn't comprise even a tenth of Mr. Carlin's quarry.
- I champion alternatives whenever possible. If I'm skeptical of the Republicans' and Democrats' ability to reform, I promote voting for third parties. If I'm skeptical of North America's prosperous future, I present practices/attitudes I believe will help fellow citizens in preparing for the coming Depression. Insofar as anything I've seen of Mr. Carlin's invective, the man doesn't bother with even the pretense of alternatives.
- you fail to give me due credit for instances where I take up optimistic positions, possibly because these are rarely ever positions we debate at length. As for Mr. Carlin, there doesn't seem to be any topic under the heavens the man wasn't cynical about.
Look through my thread history. There's everything from birther conspiracies to chemtrails to police advocacy to a thread literally titled "People are Wonderful" wherein I extol the fact that people are wonderful. I try to keep an open mind. That's to say nothing of the dozens of goofy or lighthearted threads in the list.
Thread for thread, your thread record is even more critical than mine is. You see problems and you talk about them. You usually do it without a "people suck and everything man does sucks" attitude permeating every word. Hence I don't consider you to be cynic, and you should afford me the same license.
"People suck and everything man does sucks" is the sine qua non of practically everything Mr. Carlin is famous for.
a demagogue is a POLITICAL LEADER (i don't consider Carlin either). i don't think anyone other than you thinks of Carlin that way. i gave you a specific example of your cynicism already. your "awareness" of trends is so far outside the norm that it can only be considered cynical. you are cynical about the future of this country, my home state, liberalism, (fill in the blank), Virgil. you are so cynical that you are totally convinced we will collapse- and SOON. i think the last time we had this discussion (we have had many), you predicted the collapse "before Obama leaves office", which gives you 22 months, pally. if you are not aware of that, then you are lacking introspection. search your feelings, Luke, you know it is true. but fine, you are less cynical than Carlin. and less funny.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 20:26:20 GMT -5
cynical (sĭnˈĭ-kəl)
adj. Believing or showing the belief that people are motivated chiefly by base or selfish concerns; skeptical of the motives of others adj. Selfishly or callously calculating: showed a cynical disregard for the safety of his troops in his efforts to advance his reputation. adj. Negative or pessimistic, as from world-weariness
You correctly assert that my view on the west's economic future is pessimistic, hence that particular view qualifies as cynical per the third definition.
Having said this, even my economic outlook doesn't meet the first or second definitions. It's cynical only insofar as it is pessimistic, and I contend that it's only pessimistic insofar as it is realistic.
Mr. Carlin's views are certainly pessimistic, but their defining attribute is cynicism of the first variety, which isn't present in even the most cynical of my posts. Quite to the contrary, I'm far more often accused of being too sheltered and idealistic when it comes to human nature. Has anyone ever accused you of that, o "[insert Republican name] is an [expletive] [expletive]" poll dancer?
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 27, 2015 20:30:18 GMT -5
Lighten up Virgil- Carlin was one of the greatest comics ever- obviously you haven't gone to any shows or really listened to a variety of his work since you have pigeonholed him. Maybe comedy isn't your thing.
Please don't even associate him in anyway with Rush- that is just plain insulting. Probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard from you so far.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 20:45:15 GMT -5
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 20:49:31 GMT -5
Please don't even associate him in anyway with Rush- that is just plain insulting. Probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard from you so far. I'm shocked you think so, sir. SHOCKED! (How's that for cynicism, DJ? )
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 27, 2015 20:59:24 GMT -5
I am shocked you are so obviously unaware of Carlin's vast material- yet you are judging him and those who like him based on your perception of it either by what you have read or heard.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 27, 2015 21:01:09 GMT -5
cynical (sĭnˈĭ-kəl) adj. Believing or showing the belief that people are motivated chiefly by base or selfish concerns; skeptical of the motives of others adj. Selfishly or callously calculating: showed a cynical disregard for the safety of his troops in his efforts to advance his reputation. adj. Negative or pessimistic, as from world-weariness You correctly assert that my view on the west's economic future is pessimistic, hence that particular view qualifies as cynical per the third definition. Having said this, even my economic outlook doesn't meet the first or second definitions. It's cynical only insofar as it is pessimistic, and I contend that it's only pessimistic insofar as it is realistic. Mr. Carlin's views are certainly pessimistic, but their defining attribute is cynicism of the first variety, which isn't present in even the most cynical of my posts. Quite to the contrary, I'm far more often accused of being too sheltered and idealistic when it comes to human nature. Has anyone ever accused you of that, o "[insert Republican name] is an [expletive] [expletive]" poll dancer? i was thinking of the third meaning, Virgil. but for the record, i don't think Carlin thinks ALL people are selfish. however, i have to disagree that your cynicism is only pessimistic. you would have a difficult time finding any attributions on your part of noblilty or goodness to the actions of government, imo: you are unfailingly cynical about the motivations, the deeds, and the words of those who run for (and occupy) office. that, according to definitions 1&2 above. honestly, i have no idea about what people accuse me of. i tend to ignore such things, as i am old enough to know precisely what i am.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 27, 2015 21:03:39 GMT -5
i have found the search engine here to be pretty lousy. but i might not be remembering the precise phase. i do, however, remember the discussions (many). they involved the economy under Obama. let me just ask you this, it should clear everything up: do you think that the US is heading for a downturn in the very short term that rivals the depression?
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 27, 2015 21:04:37 GMT -5
Please don't even associate him in anyway with Rush- that is just plain insulting. Probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard from you so far. I'm shocked you think so, sir. SHOCKED! (How's that for cynicism, DJ? ) doesn't fit the way i use the term. more like sarcastic.
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 27, 2015 21:11:51 GMT -5
I always liked Carlin (unless he was on one of his "how filthy can I get" kicks). I remember two of his bits that had me in stitches. The first one was from the late 70s, I think. He was pretending to be an ant walking down a sidewalk, complete with the ruts between the pavement blocks. Not a word was spoken. It was all done with body language and facial expression. Absolutely priceless. The other one was, again, wordless. He walked on stage and simply stood there. He stood there for a long time. He left the audience roaring.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 21:24:25 GMT -5
I am shocked you are so obviously unaware of Carlin's vast material- yet you are judging him and those who like him based on your perception of it either by what you have read or heard. I'm judging him based on maybe an hour's worth total of video material I've seen of him plus maybe 20 pages worth total of written material by him. All of it is fully consistent with what I've described here. If he had a lighter, less misanthropic side, nobody evidently cares about it enough to spread it far and wide across the Internet. i have found the search engine here to be pretty lousy. but i might not be remembering the precise phase. i do, however, remember the discussions (many). they involved the economy under Obama. let me just ask you this, it should clear everything up: do you think that the US is heading for a downturn in the very short term that rivals the depression? See this post from just this past week. I always liked Carlin (unless he was on one of his "how filthy can I get" kicks). I remember two of his bits that had me in stitches. The first one was from the late 70s, I think. He was pretending to be an ant walking down a sidewalk, complete with the ruts between the pavement blocks. Not a word was spoken. It was all done with body language and facial expression. Absolutely priceless. The other one was, again, wordless. He walked on stage and simply stood there. He stood there for a long time. He left the audience roaring. EVT is right in that I don't "get" comedians. That sounds like something people would have to be drunk out of their minds to find funny.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 27, 2015 21:27:45 GMT -5
I am shocked you are so obviously unaware of Carlin's vast material- yet you are judging him and those who like him based on your perception of it either by what you have read or heard. I'm judging him based on maybe an hour's worth total of video material I've seen of him plus maybe 20 pages worth total of written material by him. All of it is fully consistent with what I've described here. If he had a lighter, less misanthropic side, nobody evidently cares about it enough to spread it far and wide across the Internet. i have found the search engine here to be pretty lousy. but i might not be remembering the precise phase. i do, however, remember the discussions (many). they involved the economy under Obama. let me just ask you this, it should clear everything up: do you think that the US is heading for a downturn in the very short term that rivals the depression? See this post from just this past week. I always liked Carlin (unless he was on one of his "how filthy can I get" kicks). I remember two of his bits that had me in stitches. The first one was from the late 70s, I think. He was pretending to be an ant walking down a sidewalk, complete with the ruts between the pavement blocks. Not a word was spoken. It was all done with body language and facial expression. Absolutely priceless. The other one was, again, wordless. He walked on stage and simply stood there. He stood there for a long time. He left the audience roaring. EVT is right in that I don't "get" comedians. That sounds like something people would have to be drunk out of their minds to find funny. i don't normally like it when you link to other posts, but in this case that works very well. i think that outlook would rival Peter Schiff for cynicism (by the third definition).
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 27, 2015 21:33:10 GMT -5
Not really. These were just the kind of thing you have to see. They're impossible to explain and impossible to even show someone - unless, of course, you're George Carlin. He had amazing control of his body and facial expression and he knew, instinctively, how to make them work for him. You had to be there.
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2015 21:34:50 GMT -5
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 21:50:16 GMT -5
Not really. These were just the kind of thing you have to see. They're impossible to explain and impossible to even show someone - unless, of course, you're George Carlin. He had amazing control of his body and facial expression and he knew, instinctively, how to make them work for him. You had to be there. I've heard that said about Jim Carrey, Eddie Murphy, Robin Williams, and Tim Allen from their stand-up days. But I've watched the video clips and they don't do anything for me. It's not surprising. My views on "funny" are unusually narrow. I tend to enjoy parody and real-life situational comedy such as well-engineered pranks, but even there I'm quite picky.
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 27, 2015 21:52:07 GMT -5
Not really. These were just the kind of thing you have to see. They're impossible to explain and impossible to even show someone - unless, of course, you're George Carlin. He had amazing control of his body and facial expression and he knew, instinctively, how to make them work for him. You had to be there. I've heard that said about Jim Carrey, Eddie Murphy, Robin Williams, and Tim Allen from their stand-up days. But I've watched the video clips and they don't do anything for me. It's not surprising. My views on "funny" are unusually narrow. I tend to enjoy parody and real-life situational comedy such as well-engineered pranks, but even there I'm quite picky. Makes sense to me. I'm not that easily amused, either. What others find funny often leaves me scratching my head.
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2015 21:53:41 GMT -5
On the bright side, though, you are only 60% wrong in your tastes. I don't like Jim Carrey or Tim Allen either.
Wonder if it's an 'im thing?
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Post by Opti on Mar 27, 2015 22:04:53 GMT -5
I haven't seen much standup compared to some of you, but I do like Jim Carrey in movies especially his more serious roles and Liar Liar.
Virgil, are there any comics you like? How about sitcoms such as Big Bang Theory?
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 22:18:25 GMT -5
Um, yeah... For the first one: For the second one: although it appears somebody actually cares about this one, it's exactly the "humour" I'd expect from him. It's about "stuff" instead of people. I suppose we can all appreciate that. He does have a point that people like "stuff", and take stuff with them when they travel. That's pretty insightful.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 22:19:50 GMT -5
On the bright side, though, you are only 60% wrong in your tastes. I don't like Jim Carrey or Tim Allen either.
Wonder if it's an 'im thing? I like Jim Carrey as an actor in some of his roles. I very much enjoyed "The Truman Show", for example, and I enjoyed "The Majestic".
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 27, 2015 22:25:44 GMT -5
I could post hours of Carlin that are not cynical, political, or anything else except funny. His specialty is language- so maybe a small taste from his older days and see if you think it is funny or not- clean for television audiences:
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 27, 2015 22:34:14 GMT -5
I wonder how Virgil would react to Mitch Hedberg
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2015 22:34:43 GMT -5
Um, yeah... For the first one: For the second one: although it appears somebody actually cares about this one, it's exactly the "humour" I'd expect from him. It's about "stuff" instead of people. I suppose we can all appreciate that. He does have a point that people like "stuff", and take stuff with them when they travel. That's pretty insightful. Not sure what your point is here. Are you highlighting the number of views of each video? If so, there are dozens of copies posted on YouTube of the Baseball/Football one. (I just grabbed one at random.) Are you going to add up all of those totals? It took me about a minute to find one with 1.5 million+ views and several more with totals in the hundreds of thousands. And that was without even trying. There are certainly more, and possibly higher numbers. So if that was indeed your "theme" you failed miserably again.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 22:41:56 GMT -5
I haven't seen much standup compared to some of you, but I do like Jim Carrey in movies especially his more serious roles and Liar Liar.
Virgil, are there any comics you like? How about sitcoms such as Big Bang Theory? I got a chuckle out of some of Leslie Nielsen's slapstick movies like "Wrongfully Accused", just because of how over-the-top goofy they are. The only kind of stand-up comedy I've ever found funny is improv. Some of the improv routines at Second City got me laughing. I can't recall the names of the comedians. The only sitcom I was ever able to tolerate was "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" decades ago. Even then it was more a sense of being entertained than a sense of "ha ha" funny. I have some extended family members that love "Big Bang Theory". I've sat through bits and pieces. To me, it's just actors behaving in ways Hollywood producers think that intelligent or eccentric people act. The characters make poor decisions for sake of plot hijinks, and off they go like monkeys in a circus. If I cared for that kind of thing, I'd get my dose of it from real people in YM.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 27, 2015 22:43:58 GMT -5
(Tall can get me to laugh. ) Why don't you sum them up and get back to me?
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Post by tallguy on Mar 27, 2015 22:51:47 GMT -5
(Tall can get me to laugh. ) Why don't you sum them up and get back to me? Why? I still don't know what your point was, it being such a ridiculous post in the first place.
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 27, 2015 22:59:06 GMT -5
I haven't seen much standup compared to some of you, but I do like Jim Carrey in movies especially his more serious roles and Liar Liar.
Virgil, are there any comics you like? How about sitcoms such as Big Bang Theory? I got a chuckle out of some of Leslie Nielsen's slapstick movies like "Wrongfully Accused", just because of how over-the-top goofy they are. The only kind of stand-up comedy I've ever found funny is improv. Some of the improv routines at Second City got me laughing. I can't recall the names of the comedians. The only sitcom I was ever able to tolerate was "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" decades ago. Even then it was more a sense of being entertained than a sense of "ha ha" funny. I have some extended family members that love "Big Bang Theory". I've sat through bits and pieces. To me, it's just actors behaving in ways Hollywood producers think that intelligent or eccentric people act. The characters make poor decisions for sake of plot hijinks, and off they go like monkeys in a circus. If I cared for that kind of thing, I'd get my dose of it from real people in YM.
OK so you like the 'who's line is it anyway' variety of comedy. And Nielsen? The first thing I think of is Police Squad or Airplane!
Did you find Airplane! funny?
Did you ever watch Seinfeld?
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