Just how much higher Is The Ocean Level Now?

[OldCoyote]

With all the Arctic ice melting How much has the Ocean levels risen?

[Deleted]

oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html

[Tennesseer]

www.ask.com/

[mroped]

I've seen on National Geographic a thing about some islands in the Pacific where in the last 15-20 years the levels of water have risen so high that they are definetly considering uprooting and moving.
They are a small independent nation in somewhat "proximity" of the Malayasian -about 500- 1000 or so miles away.
Now they were looking for approvals from the Malayasian government.

Their islands were at low levels to begin with but right now they are in a dangerous position.

[OldCoyote]

Ahhh Yes, I see where the Leader of Maldives was lobbying the U.N for billions of Global Warming $ because all of his people were standing knee deep in ocean water.


When I used Google Earth all the islands still seem to be there,  Must have been an old picture,  

[OldCoyote]

My question is just how much of the ocean rise is because of all the arctic ice melting?

[billisonboard]

Feb 15, 2015 10:40:02 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

My question is ...

I read you making statements in the form of questions.

[Tennesseer]

You and one other poster are the expert climatologists, OldCoyote. You should know the answer to your question.

[djAdvocate]

when your (floating) ice cubes melt, does the level of your drink rise?

[djAdvocate]

(let's see how familiar everyone is with Archimedes' principle, this morning)

[EVT1]

How about one I remember from physics- you are in a canoe in a pool with a bowling ball and you toss it overboard- what happens to the water level in the pool?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 15, 2015 13:01:52 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

How about one I remember from physics- you are in a canoe in a pool with a bowling ball and you toss it overboard- what happens to the water level in the pool?

nearly the same problem.  too bad we are scientifically illiterate in this country.

[billisonboard]

Feb 15, 2015 13:10:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 15, 2015 13:01:52 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

How about one I remember from physics- you are in a canoe in a pool with a bowling ball and you toss it overboard- what happens to the water level in the pool?

same exact problem.  too bad we are scientifically illiterate in this country.

It isn't the "same exact problem".

[djAdvocate]

Feb 15, 2015 13:14:24 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 15, 2015 13:10:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

same exact problem.  too bad we are scientifically illiterate in this country.

It isn't the "same exact problem".

because the bowling ball will have it's weight supported by the bottom of the pond?  that's right.  good catch.

[busymom]

I've seen stories that Norfolk, VA is having flooding problems more frequently, but not sure if it's because the ocean is rising, or the city is sinking...

[djAdvocate]

Feb 15, 2015 13:31:42 GMT -5 busymom said:

I've seen stories that Norfolk, VA is having flooding problems more frequently, but not sure if it's because the ocean is rising, or the city is sinking...

oh, i am sure ocean levels are rising.  but it has nothing to do with arctic ice.

[OldCoyote]

Your pretty sharp there DJ.

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2015 11:32:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

when your (floating) ice cubes melt, does the level of your drink rise?

Depends... how much of the ice cube is ABOVE the waterline?

If any is above the line, than all that was above the line contributes to a rise in the line... even if it's almost imperceptible.

Now, granted, the MASS of the water will still be identical, but it's distribution in the glass will have changed.. slightly.


(We did this experiment in High School Chemistry... 1/2 cup (by volume, pre-freeze) ice floating in 1.5 cups of water, in a container with the starting water level marked... raised the water line by about 1 millimeter)

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2015 13:32:53 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 15, 2015 13:31:42 GMT -5 busymom said:

I've seen stories that Norfolk, VA is having flooding problems more frequently, but not sure if it's because the ocean is rising, or the city is sinking...

oh, i am sure ocean levels are rising.  but it has nothing to do with arctic ice.

Greenland's ice packs are considered "Arctic"... aren't they? What about the Alaskan Glaciers?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 15, 2015 20:08:16 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Feb 15, 2015 11:32:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

when your (floating) ice cubes melt, does the level of your drink rise?

Depends... how much of the ice cube is ABOVE the waterline?

no.  actually it doesn't.

If any is above the line, than all that was above the line contributes to a rise in the line... even if it's almost imperceptible.

no.  actually it doesn't.

Now, granted, the MASS of the water will still be identical, but it's distribution in the glass will have changed.. slightly.

well, sure- the ice will have been converted to water.  other than that, it is precisely the same.


(We did this experiment in High School Chemistry... 1/2 cup (by volume, pre-freeze) ice floating in 1.5 cups of water, in a container with the starting water level marked... raised the water line by about 1 millimeter)

then part of the ice's weight must have been supported by the cup.  otherwise, it would NOT contribute to a rise in the water level.

edit:

www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/spring08/atmo336s1/courses/fall13/atmo170a1s3/1S1P_stuff/melting_ice_sea_level_rise/Archimedes_melting_ice.html

[djAdvocate]

Feb 15, 2015 20:09:31 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Feb 15, 2015 13:32:53 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

oh, i am sure ocean levels are rising.  but it has nothing to do with arctic ice.

Greenland's ice packs are considered "Arctic"... aren't they? What about the Alaskan Glaciers?

i said floating ice in another post.  i meant the arctic ice cap, not landed ice.  yes, glaciers contribute to increased sea levels.

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2015 21:00:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 15, 2015 20:08:16 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Depends... how much of the ice cube is ABOVE the waterline?

If any is above the line, than all that was above the line contributes to a rise in the line... even if it's almost imperceptible.

Now, granted, the MASS of the water will still be identical, but it's distribution in the glass will have changed.. slightly.


(We did this experiment in High School Chemistry... 1/2 cup (by volume, pre-freeze) ice floating in 1.5 cups of water, in a container with the starting water level marked... raised the water line by about 1 millimeter)

then part of the ice's weight must have been supported by the cup.  otherwise, it would NOT contribute to a rise in the water level.

edit:

www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/spring08/atmo336s1/courses/fall13/atmo170a1s3/1S1P_stuff/melting_ice_sea_level_rise/Archimedes_melting_ice.html

Nothing was supported by the container. The ice was "Freely floating" (with the occasional bump against the side of the container, hence the quotes)

All reverence to Archimedes aside... I can only report what I personally witnessed.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 15, 2015 21:48:14 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Feb 15, 2015 21:00:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

then part of the ice's weight must have been supported by the cup.  otherwise, it would NOT contribute to a rise in the water level.

edit:

www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/spring08/atmo336s1/courses/fall13/atmo170a1s3/1S1P_stuff/melting_ice_sea_level_rise/Archimedes_melting_ice.html

Nothing was supported by the container. The ice was "Freely floating" (with the occasional bump against the side of the container, hence the quotes)

All reverence to Archimedes aside... I can only report what I personally witnessed.

well, then your experiment violated physics, i guess. 

[Deleted]

If it did, then it did. I can't explain the how (way too many years between then and now), I can only describe the what.

[EVT1]

Feb 15, 2015 13:23:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 15, 2015 13:14:24 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

It isn't the "same exact problem".

because the bowling ball will have it's weight supported by the bottom of the pond?  that's right.  good catch.

And the water level goes.......down counter-intuitively.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 16, 2015 12:15:04 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Feb 15, 2015 13:23:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

because the bowling ball will have it's weight supported by the bottom of the pond?  that's right.  good catch.

And the water level goes.......down counter-intuitively.

correct.

[EVT1]

Read an intense physics debate that wound up in Wired- which asked if is possible for a vehicle powered by the wind to travel directly downwind faster than the wind- which it can- also counter-intuitive.  I think there are people that still don't believe it.

[ChiTownVenture]

Liquid water contracts until it is Frozen and then it expands in ice form. In reverse as liquid water is heated it expands until it evaporates. Heated liquid water (from the warming of ocean waters) could cause a rise in ocean level. The freezing of the oceans also could cause a rise in ocean levels.

The fact that the ice is melting and the temp in the water is increasing would suggest that both are causing the rise.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 16, 2015 16:45:25 GMT -5 ChiTownVenture said:

Liquid water contracts until it is Frozen and then it expands in ice form. In reverse as liquid water is heated it expands until it evaporates. Heated liquid water (from the warming of ocean waters) could cause a rise in ocean level. The freezing of the oceans also could cause a rise in ocean levels.

The fact that the ice is melting and the temp in the water is increasing would suggest that both are causing the rise.

i thought about the coefficient of expansion earlier, and that is, indeed, entirely possible as a contributing factor, even without any ice melt.

[ChiTownVenture]

Feb 16, 2015 16:52:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 16, 2015 16:45:25 GMT -5 ChiTownVenture said:

Liquid water contracts until it is Frozen and then it expands in ice form. In reverse as liquid water is heated it expands until it evaporates. Heated liquid water (from the warming of ocean waters) could cause a rise in ocean level. The freezing of the oceans also could cause a rise in ocean levels.

The fact that the ice is melting and the temp in the water is increasing would suggest that both are causing the rise.

i thought about the coefficient of expansion earlier, and that is, indeed, entirely possible as a contributing factor, even without any ice melt.

The fact that ice is melting and the water is rising gives the impression that the heating is expanding the water at a greater rate then the reduction that should be occurring with the melting of the ice.  

None of this takes into account the change of landscape on the ocean floors.  As volcanic eruptions happen the floor could literally be rising causing the water to rise as well.  Or, greater cravens could be created with the movement of tectonic plates reducing the water levels.

This is all way past my ability but a few things to think about.