floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 10, 2011 10:03:01 GMT -5
Thank you for yet another one-line "nuh uh!" response. You're quite welcome. There really is no other way to respond to your liberal fantasy. Keep quacking......maybe you'll hear an echo some day.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 10:16:55 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm a bit jaded, but there are those here on this board who have seen the things that have been said to me on an unmoderated board, so I have to wonder just what lurks beneath the minds of some conservatives.
I have seen many a post where a conservative calmly discussed killing all liberals, throwing them into camps, arresting them, deporting them, or stripping them of rights. I was even told by one particular conservative that we need a liberal Holocaust and I would be the first person he'd throw into the ovens.
Oh, and here are some choice quotes to prove my point:
But this kind of talk isn't simply limited to immature message board posters. We even have "professional conservatives" making quips like this one:
So you're going to have to forgive me if I think the Hitler comparison is not necessarily far out of line. How can it be when even major media personalities like Limbaugh are making snarky comments about genocide against liberals? It's not even remotely funny even if one were to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't serious. People have been fired for saying much, much less.
Those who frequent only this board or who have not had the "pleasure" of having debates on unmoderated boards may not truly grasp the Hitler-like comments some conservatives say, but I am here to tell you that they exist and it really does happen.
Thus, as I've previously said, you will have to forgive my jaded view, but I have tangible, proven reasons why I feel the comparison is a valid one. After all, even here, no one seems able to actually refute my comparison, and I have to wonder why.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 10:20:04 GMT -5
Why do you even bother continuing to respond to my posts? All you do with each one is prove even further the point I initially made. Is digging yourself a hole worth the keystrokes you put into this?
If my comparison was so steeped in fantasy as you contend, it should be extraordinarily easy for you to post why. After all, the dumber the premise, the easier it is to refute.
Instead, you continue to waste both my time and yours (as well as bandwidth) with null responses. This is quite mind-boggling.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 10, 2011 10:24:39 GMT -5
Thus, as I've previously said, you will have to forgive my jaded view, but I have tangible, proven reasons why I feel the comparison is a valid one. After all, even here, no one seems able to actually refute my comparison, and I have to wonder why.Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=4381&page=7#ixzz1GD6QkOWTI would have to respectively disagree you can and should prove your point without Hitler...why bring yourself down to that level or go into the gutter with those conservatives who want to inflame, incite passion with their rhetoric... As soon as I saw Hitler's name mentioned in your post I just ignored it and I think others probably did the same...maybe because I studied WW2, Korea, and Vietnam for a lot of years in my other life..?? To me Hitler was the cause of millions of deaths and hopefully we will never see his like again in our lifetime...he brought years of destruction to many parts of this world from 1939 - 1945...and some areas have never recovered to this day.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 10, 2011 10:45:50 GMT -5
Which includes "promoting the general welfare ..."
Looks like this is your catch-all fallback position. The problem is that it seems you are taking the word "welfare" in today's context (hand out free money to people refusing to work). What that word meant 260 years ago was to provide the populace with an environment in which they could create their own wealth through honest work with protection from criminals by law enforcement, a legal court system to handle cases of disagreement or criminal activity, a solid trade and monetary system based on gold and a military to discourage and repel any attack from outside forces. In a nutshell thats pretty much it. As you can see, the government has expanded at an incredible rate while expanding its reach into the private lives of each and every citizen. It has gotten so far from the original intent it is barely recognizable. If its all due to "promoting the general welfare... " then you best remove that line from the Constitution before it all collapses in a quagmire of confusion and chaos.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 10, 2011 10:53:55 GMT -5
Why do you even bother continuing to respond to my posts? All you do with each one is prove even further the point I initially made. That's the thing....You have yet to make a point other than you can make up a list paralleling hitler and US conservatives. Wow...impressive. Other than that, you continue to believe whatever you wish. Still not hearing an echo. Apparently you're the only one buying your fantasy list.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2011 10:56:05 GMT -5
Sorry, shirina--long story short, you quack like a duck, so you are a duck. As much as I have enjoyed you in the past, on other boards that were more nonsense than sense, I cannot dislike you now. I just wish you could, for one minute, put your zeal in to looking at both sides of all issues. You, my friend, are very one sided. I have taken looks at both sides, shirina, I do it all of the time, actually. Very easy to do in this media atmosphere... it is a bit more strenous to see the other side if you are liberal. You have to actually turn the channel, maybe turn on the radio, check out websites that are not huffpo or media matters. To people that choose not to do that, it must seem that the entire USA is in agreement with you--which is not true. BUT-- it can SEEM true if you isolate yourself to certain places and schools of thought.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 11:05:32 GMT -5
I think you're forgetting the context in which it was written. If you re-read the OP on this thread, things make more sense. Sometimes I think we too often forget the original topic of a conversation.
In either event, when conservatives express a desire to kill millions of liberals, why is a comparison to Hitler bringing myself into the gutter? If people ignore it, that's their prerogative, but if people are going to accuse me of being wrong, then they had best be able to back it up. So far, they haven't.
There is something called Godwin's Law, which you may have heard of, which says that overuse of Hitler comparisons has made it a sort of "taboo" on the internet. This is probably where your aversion to it comes from. However, Godwin's Law also states this:
Given that, my comparison is not out of line. I really don't know what else to tell you.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 11:10:00 GMT -5
Since it's obvious you aren't going to back up your assertion that my list is a fantasy and will, instead, continue to weasel out of it, I'm going to end this argument with you. Post all you wish to on this topic, but I will not be responding. This bantering back and forth to no good effect has grown quite wearisome.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2011 11:11:04 GMT -5
Man, shirina-- we could use you on our side. Could you at least check it out? There is a little civil war type thing going on in WI right now. Do you know both sides of that one? It is pretty huge. Maybe you should check it out.
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 10, 2011 11:14:52 GMT -5
Well, almost. The law itself: Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 11:17:03 GMT -5
Well, as a practical matter we can't tax corporations because they don't exist. They are made up of people. ONLY people pay taxes.
The owners of corporations do not pay taxes, either.
The owners of corporations do not pay for anything.
By definition, if a corporation exists, and will continue to exist it is making a profit. To make a profit, it must take in more money than it pays out in expenses-- and taxes are nothing more than a line item expense.
So, in effect all taxes are paid by the customers.
If the price at which they must sell the framus (which as everyone knows is essential for the manufacture of widgets) can't exceed the expenses due to market forces, the framus company goes out of business and with no framuses-- there's also no more widgets.
And for those of you that haven't heard of the East India Trading Company- let me assure you the corporation has changed very little since its inception well before the Constitution was written. If "as we know them today" is your qualifier-- then you should be aware that "as we know them today" is the result of our ridiculously complicated 11,000 +/- page tax code-- which is in no way related to the Constitution, or even permitted by it.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 11:29:14 GMT -5
I really have no clue what you're on about with that comment.
I don't dislike you either, but I do strongly disagree with most of what you say. Worse still, many of your claims have grown increasingly presumptuous in terms of who I am and what I know, and I'm finding that rather irksome.
I have looked at both sides, then I made a stand. I am not going to be wishy-washy or a milquetoast when it comes to my views. Just because I have strong convictions about a given issue doesn't mean I haven't considered all the angles. It only means I have already done so then made my decision on which side to take.
I also don't post a lot of agreement threads. I'm not a "me too" poster, and I don't waste time with "thumbs up" posts unless I see one that is so outstanding that I feel almost compelled to do so. That doesn't mean I don't silently agree with some conservative stances, but those stances rarely ever come up on forum debates - and make no mistake, I do use the forum to debate, not to form a mutual admiration society. Therefore, you are basing your "analysis" on an illusion. All you know is what I post, and that is the barest fraction of what I actually think.
Should I pretend to agree with viewpoints that I disagree with just to appear more multi-sided?
I hear a number of conservatives say this to liberals quite often. Then they make the claim that they look at all sides, just as you have done. But when it comes time to write a post, do they ever have anything positive to say about liberals, Democrats, or Obama? Not really.
And there is that presumption again, assuming I only read Huffington Post or Media Matters. In fact, I get a lot of my news from reading the articles people post here, and elsewhere on forums. I tend to avoid the media completely, which is why you do not see me posting tons of articles from anywhere, left or right. My views are my own, they do not belong to Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann. If they bear any similarities, it is a coincidence.
Naturally, I could make the same argument and ask you to turn the channel away from Limbaugh, Beck, Fox, and Alex Jones.
If they don't agree with me, then does that mean you believe they all agree with you? And if so, then how can you be sure that you're not the one who has isolated herself?
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 11:31:22 GMT -5
Of course. I posted the stated exceptions, which I feel I'm well within.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 10, 2011 11:31:37 GMT -5
Since it's obvious you aren't going to back up your assertion that my list is a fantasy... Since you don't get the point when I said " I'm conservative and beyond the communist line, your list is pure fantasy" I'll spell it out for you. As a conservative I do not hate Intellectuals, jews, gays, russians, opponents, old or disabled people. Therefore your list is false. But, of course, this won't be acceptable to you and you'll brush it off so go ahead, I give you the last quack.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 11:39:33 GMT -5
I love Jews. Seems to me, notwithstanding that most American Jews are on the left, that the Jew haters are almost exclusively on the left these days. National Palestine Radio, anyone? Maybe that's starting to change-- that most Jews are on the left, not that the left so vehemently hates Jews. After all, my Congressional district is pretty heavily Jewish and they just managed to elect Lt. Col. Alan West-- a black conservative.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 11:42:38 GMT -5
Also, it seems to me that one of the darlings of left wing politics-- Planned Abortion...er, um, I mean Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger. Margaret Sanger was steeped in the NAZI "science" of Eugenics. She thought abortion a way to systematically kill the poor, but particularly the racially inferior like Jews, blacks, and hispanics. To this day, Planned Parenthood operates in disproportionately minority neighborhoods-- mostly black and hispanic.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 11:55:06 GMT -5
I don't plan to continue this pointless argument because as a libertarian-leaning conservative I'm about as anti-NAZI as they come. I don't have anything to apologize for, and the ill-informed "list" of people supposedly "hated" by "conservatives" is absurdly false-- to the point where the person that would post such a thing is so hopelessly ignorant of history it's hardly worth the time it takes to debate them. Especially when you consider that the end of that debate won't move such a person off their position.
The REAL debate is individual rights vs. statism. Left and right, as the far left see them is a false debate between the right wing statism as it has been defined by them of Hitler and the NAZIs and the left wing statism of Stalin and Lennin.
A conservative like me understands that statism is statism. It matters very little how you dress it up. The aims are similar, if not identical-- a statist utopian vision, and even the means differ little.
I refer you again to the darling of left wing American politics-- that upstanding organization Planned Parenthood and its founder Margaret Sanger, and Adolf Hitler. One loved by the left, one hated, but the two are the SAME:
Adolf Hitler - Dictator of Nazi Germany "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring. . . represents the most humane act of mankind." Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 10 Margaret Sanger - Founder of Planned Parenthood ". . .we prefer the policy of immediate sterilizarion, of making sure that parenthood is ' absolutely prohibed ' to the feeble-minded." The Pivot of Civilization, p102 "The danger to the community of the unsegregated feeble-minded woman is more evident. Most dangerous are the middle and high grades living at large who, despite the fact that their defect is not easily recognizable, should nevertheless be prevented from procreation. . . In my view we should act without delay." Prof. Dr. Ernst Rudin, head of Nazi Germany's eugenics program. "Eugenics Sterlization: An Urgent Need." - Birth Control Review, Volume XVII, Number 4 (April 1933), pp. 102-4.
"To apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted. . . to apportion farm lands and homesteads for these segregated persons where they would be taught to work under competent instructors for the period of their entire lives. . ." Mararet Sanger. "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, Volumn XVI, Number 4 (April 1932), pp. 107-8.
I could continue to DESTROY your argument and your silly list- but as I've said, there is no point.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 10, 2011 11:59:57 GMT -5
<<< The REAL debate is individual rights vs. statism. >>> ...this particular libertarian/conservative poster will give you a on that one...
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 10, 2011 12:05:43 GMT -5
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Post by marjar on Mar 10, 2011 12:08:56 GMT -5
Sorry, shirina--long story short, you quack like a duck, so you are a duck. As much as I have enjoyed you in the past, on other boards that were more nonsense than sense, I cannot dislike you now. I just wish you could, for one minute, put your zeal in to looking at both sides of all issues. You, my friend, are very one sided. I have taken looks at both sides, shirina, I do it all of the time, actually. Very easy to do in this media atmosphere... it is a bit more strenous to see the other side if you are liberal. You have to actually turn the channel, maybe turn on the radio, check out websites that are not huffpo or media matters. To people that choose not to do that, it must seem that the entire USA is in agreement with you--which is not true. BUT-- it can SEEM true if you isolate yourself to certain places and schools of thought. As I recall, you recently posted that you refused to read Huff Po because you didn't want to give them a hit.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Mar 10, 2011 12:09:41 GMT -5
During the time of colonial expansion in the 17th century,(1600s) the true progenitors of the modern corporation emerged as the "chartered company". Acting under a charter sanctioned by the Dutch monarch, the Dutch East India Company (VOC) defeated Portuguese forces and established itself in the Moluccan Islands in order to profit from the European demand for spices. Investors in the VOC were issued paper certificates as proof of share ownership, and were able to trade their shares on the original Amsterdam stock exchange. Shareholders are also explicitly granted limited liability in the company's royal charter.[8] In the late 18th century(founding father's time period), Stewart Kyd, the author of the first treatise on corporate law in English, defined a corporation as, a collection of many individuals united into one body, under a special denomination, having perpetual succession under an artificial form, and vested, by policy of the law, with the capacity of acting, in several respects, as an individual, particularly of taking and granting property, of contracting obligations, and of suing and being sued, of enjoying privileges and immunities in common, and of exercising a variety of political rights, more or less extensive, according to the design of its institution, or the powers conferred upon it, either at the time of its creation, or at any subsequent period of its existence. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 13:39:32 GMT -5
Yep. With the stupid "list" argument totally dismantled, you can hear internet crickets chriping...
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 10, 2011 17:38:27 GMT -5
This made me laugh. Shirina posts a list of 7 things that conservatives hate & you dispute hating 1 of them. Let's face it though - she has you pegged with most of the rest of the list. Maybe not russians, I have no idea what your stance is on russians. I have to say I like Shirina, for the most part her posts are well-reasoned & she comes across as very intelligent. And she was right - most of you were attacking her rather than actually disputing the list. Personally, I thought the list was intriguing & some things on it are definitely true. But, I think as far as you can take it is saying that conservatives seem to dislike some of the same groups as hitler. This doesn't mean the conservatives = nazis though unless the conservatives start commiting genocide. Just because a minority says hateful things doesn't mean it is the view of the majority. I found it funny that ed chose to comment on the rant against conservatives, when he tends to make equally ridiculous claims about liberals. I also had to kind of laugh that WCP is going to attack a post linking conservatives to nazis by posting something linking liberals to nazis. Not really a great comeback. Although maybe it was because he couldn't counter much of the other points - I've seen enough threads from you to know that you think muslims are going to destroy the country, that liberals (or as you call them socialists) are destroying this country, that gays shouldn't get married, that teachers are overpaid, & that welfare needs to be cut.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 17:43:48 GMT -5
You haven't destroyed anything. In fact, you went off on a tangent with your Planned Parenthood diatribe. I didn't say a word about abortions or eugenics. Instead, you're trying to do precisely what I did by attempting to show where certain "leftist" ideologies compare with Hitler. That hasn't destroyed anything I've said as it's an entirely different issue.
In addition, many on the left are pro-choice, and Planned Parenthood offers a place to carry out that choice. The modern PP does not necessarily represent the views of its founder, thus trying to link modern liberals with Sanger's obsolete and unpracticed goals is disingenuous.
People who claim self-declared victories are extremely annoying. I don't sit on this board all day waiting with bated breath for your posts just so I can respond to them. I will decide when or if I will respond, and given that you allowed a whole 2 hours for me to respond before crowning yourself victorious, your statement is even more ludicrous.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Mar 10, 2011 17:49:31 GMT -5
What's even more amusing is that I never said they hated Jews. I said they hated Muslims. Of course they'll claim they don't, but all one has to do is revisit the misnamed "9/11 Mosque" issue to see where this hatred - or at least extreme prejudice - lies in evidence.
Perhaps using the word "hate" is a bit extreme, but it is quite clear that conservatives have a general bias against the very same people Hitler threw into the concentration camps. That is not to say that conservatives would ever begin a second Holocaust, but one does have to wonder about the conservative thought processes that managed to zero in on the same groups Hitler despised. That was the whole point of my lists, but apparently this has been totally lost on a number of people.
Thank you, Angel, for actually "getting" it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 10, 2011 18:30:52 GMT -5
LOL, I can't believe I missed that! WCP was disputing something that you didn't even claim & then ignored everything else you said. I love it!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 18:39:25 GMT -5
It's nice to see the leftists here so well versed in Alinsky. Can't make a cogent argument? Ridicule.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 10, 2011 18:40:58 GMT -5
Clock stopped a long time ago, friend...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Mar 10, 2011 19:12:53 GMT -5
Sorry, shirina--long story short, you quack like a duck, so you are a duck. As much as I have enjoyed you in the past, on other boards that were more nonsense than sense, I cannot dislike you now. I just wish you could, for one minute, put your zeal in to looking at both sides of all issues. You, my friend, are very one sided. I have taken looks at both sides, shirina, I do it all of the time, actually. Very easy to do in this media atmosphere... it is a bit more strenous to see the other side if you are liberal. You have to actually turn the channel, maybe turn on the radio, check out websites that are not huffpo or media matters. To people that choose not to do that, it must seem that the entire USA is in agreement with you--which is not true. BUT-- it can SEEM true if you isolate yourself to certain places and schools of thought. Krickett , do you realize what you just posted? "I just wish you could, for one minute, put your zeal in to looking at both sides of all issues. You, my friend, are very one sided" Regarding your comment of one sided, your not? The posts are full of your thoughts " In fact , all your post above, in your mind your different then Shirina, except for the side you take on issues? LOL... I know, I know, not your friend any more right?
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