1921, Blair Mountain, Govt vs Miner's

[deziloooooo]

With all the talk of Anti Unions here , "the do away of , why are they hanging around, ,Management will all ways be fair, our State AND Federal Government will not take sides" here is a part of American History, granted in the past, isn't it always in the past that these things happened, that I am sure most of us haven't a clue about.

At this time, the President of the US came out in a speech during his inauguration that{paraphrasing} " workers haven't a clue as to the problems of management in Industry and have to get to understanding that"

Federal troops were sent in, and if you can believe, auto matic weapons and even airplanes were used against the striking miners.

Over 100 miners were killed, who knows the count on the wounded.

At the time, miners were paid little, lived in company homes, were paid in company scrip only redeemable in company stores at the marked up prices the stores charged. Any complaints or questions on safety , the one complaining escorted off company property, after normally being beaten and naturally fired and black listed in all mines, try to talk about a union, the same thing happened.

Owners of these mines hired armed thugs to keep the miners in their place, they had the support of the political parties in the State and the ear of the politicians in Washington. The workers? They were basically alone.

Unions were important, they did pay their dues to be allowed to be formed in blood and while this was a event in the past, about 100 years ago, now it's not with guns and bullets but by the same disregard for them by politicians with the support of some of the populace who don't know the history and are looking for a scapegoat to put the blame on for the problems we know face when those problems are a combination of poor decisions of politicians in the past as well as the demands of the same populace for benefits , programs from the government that have become unfordable.
I grant you, renegotiate, demand give backs if unfordable today, make the playing field more level, but once those are given, they have in this case, to break the unions, after all they have suffered over the years to be allowed to be formed, this case is just one of them, that is just a exercise of brute force by one, some, who probably back in the day, would have been the ones hiring the strike breakers, calling on the government to help break these workers will to form Unions, even to using automatic weapons and even the airplane, the horror weapon of the time, undefendable against by basically unarmed civilians on the ground, to get their wants achieved.
Break the back of those who were trying to organize.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
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Battle of Blair MountainFrom Wikipedia, Battle of Blair Mountain

Sheriff's deputies during the battle
Date August 25 to September 2, 1921
Location Logan County, West Virginia, United States
Result Setback of miners' rights until early 1930s when Federal Government recognized labor unions

Belligerents
Striking coal miners Baldwin-Felts Detective Agency
Logan County Sheriff's Department
West Virginia State Police
United States Army
Commanders and leaders
William "Bill" Blizzard Don Chafin
William Eubanks
Strength
15,000 Unknown
Casualties and losses
50-100 killed
Hundreds Wounded
985 arrested 10-30 killed
Unknown Wounded

"The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest open class war in United States history and was the second largest overall armed insurrection next to the American Civil War.[citation needed] For five days in late August and early September 1921, in Logan County, West Virginia, between 10,000 and 15,000 coal miners confronted an army of police and strikebreakers backed by coal operators in an effort to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. Their struggle ended only after approximately one million rounds were fired,[1] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order"
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{click in link to read article}

[formerexpat]

Unions were important

No one states any differently. In face, most anti-union people agree wholeheartedly that they WERE important...100 years ago.

[/size]

[deziloooooo]

Mar 6, 2011 14:17:34 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

Unions were important

No one states any differently. In face, most anti-union people agree wholeheartedly that they WERE important...100 years ago.

[/size]
[/quote]One view, another view is , just look at what wages are now, are they increasing? Cost of living is, benefits given by employers are going down if not actually going away. The dissing of collective bargaining , right to organize and negotiate as a group being attacked by Government officials. If we had a different POTUS in the White House, possible we would be hearing the same rhetoric that the workers heard in 1921, as well as by Governors against the unions, the mayors, the law enforcement officials in charge as they were back in 1921, those people who the average citizen looked to for protections , help, just some understasnding of, all absent, in fact acts against the citizens was rampant.
It wasn't till the 1930 that it changed under Roosevelt, collective bargaining become accepted, had the right to organize, goons were out lawed, American workers started to get fair wages and those who didn't belong to the unions also prospered by the fall out that fell on them.
Just because something happened 100 years ago doesn't mean it is not important today to remember and keep those rights won.
If you have that feeling, old was fine for that time but not today, well their are constitutional rights a lot older that should possible be looked at too, to old to be of much relevance today.

[henryclay]

desi, you didn't mention the 2 women and 12 chidren being among those who were machine gunned by the militia during a Colorado miner's strike in 1914.

You do allude to the failure of wages not increasing as being the fault of owners, operators and management. But you fail to include America's buying habits.

I would suggest that as a globalist you would be the first to recognize that as long as Americans refuse to pay American prices for it's own goods and services there will be a disparity between the cost domestic products and imported products. And consequently a cash outflow that owners, operators and management cannot stop or respond to, otrher than to downsize or seek a more friendly labor market, , , , overseas.

And that it not the fault of owners, operators or managers. That is basic economics and common sense.

And, oh yes, , , , If anyone really thinks our security forces won't shoot guns at American civilians, it must be because they have not read much history on the subject.

[deziloooooo]

Mar 6, 2011 15:01:21 GMT -5 henryclay said:

desi, you didn't mention the 2 women and 12 chidren being among those who were machine gunned by the militia during a Colorado miner's strike in 1914.

You do allude to the failure of wages not increasing as being the fault of owners, operators and management. But you fail to include America's buying habits.

I would suggest that as a globalist you would be the first to recognize that as long as Americans refuse to pay American prices for it's own goods and services there will be a disparity between the cost domestic products and imported products. And consequently a cash outflow that owners, operators and management cannot stop or respond to, otrher than to downsize or seek a more friendly labor market, , , , overseas.

And that it not the fault of owners, operators or managers. That is basic economics and common sense.

And, oh yes, , , , If anyone really thinks our security forces won't shoot guns at American civilians, it must be because they have not read much history on the subject.

Henry , your right I was just bringing this one up because of the argument on unions, breaking them, that I feel is happening in WI there had been things elsewhere, Colorado was one.
This one was brought to my attention by a NPR program this week, a historian brought a few people up to the top of the mountain , where the hired goons and police were , who fired down into the striking miners, and was explaining what took place in 1921, the trenches dug by the goons are still there as other things left there.

Kent State comes to mind, riots in the cities after Kings assassination, and oh yes, in special cases, possible happen again. At this time, Labor was not looked favorably by Politicians all the way up as far as you can go.

The reason in this case, at the time Coal was the oil of today as far as energy, still is actually as far as power manufacturing, electricity. It was felt as America was growing their economy nothing should stand in the way of the groth, especially labbor and labor was suspect. Don't forget, Russian revelution, communism was just getting stsrted in Russia, business people scared to death of that taking root here.

Miners now, with automation, so many fewer miners , bodies needed. West Virginia still a impoverished area , even though coal prices are very high, and if miners now do get good wages, mines are protected, I don't know really what wages are like. Wasn't there just a bad accident with about 20 some on who died, mine safety rules are suspect, think mine is/was closed , closing, there are so few actual miners and little else in industry in them thar hills, so very depressed.

"refuse to pay American prices for it's own goods and services there will be a disparity between the cost domestic products and imported products"
I agree here too, I am guilty, and am on my way out to look and buy a new computer keyboard, cheap from some where off shore I know, promise to look for one made in USA, and a bit more will pay it , OK, but you and I know, it won't be there to be offered to me.

I haven't a answer on that problem, only one that I can think of is is Zackariah's suggestion, investment into the 21st century research of the new and better, something Obama suggested in State of the Union, as China, Korea,{South of course} and other countries are doing but doesn't seem to be of interest to anyone..so no answers to the problems.
I was lucky, through no great skills, right generation, made a living, invested, didn't spend it all, couple of pensions by being vested when companies had pensions, none huge but OK and all company financed, a disability from Uncle Sam for services rendered, nothing huge , but helpful and purchase and sale of 5 homes and profits in my life time, so I was able to be I guess a middle class person.
I see so few today , percentage wise, compared to the past getting to that level. The ones who are 'comfortable "..there are always those.

[handyman2]

Also Dezi as a little side note, that is where the term red necks came from. The striking workers who fought against the unions and thugs and government wore red bandanas around their necks so they would know friend from foe when the shooting started. I had a couple of ancestors who were killed during that war.

[deziloooooo]

"term red necks came from.", for real, the term? Never knew that, as far as ancestors killed, that can hit close to home in familys even though it was a while ago...but not that long ago as my parents were alive , as kids, when it went
down to put it into perspective.
Those who I feel are in positions of responsibility , such as the WI Governor should know better, know the history of the labor movement and act accordingly.
U know he has support but it was interesting to see today, on the Sunday Morning news and opinion shows , while they understood the problems the states are under and where uniions can be a thorn in getting things fixed , and have no problem with governors being firm and renegotiating but all, 100%, are against the union busting. I know, I wasn't probably wasn't listening to Fox. No I wasn't, CNN. ;D

[ed1066]

That was a private union. The issue here is public unions. Big difference...

[deziloooooo]

Mar 6, 2011 17:22:07 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

That was a private union. The issue here is public unions. Big difference...

A Union is a union, formed for the same trasons..actually the public union is not allowed to strike, they do, they can be fired, see Reagan and his actions with the air controllers, all fired who did not report back to work.

[henryclay]

"........A Union is a union, formed for the same trasons...."

Some truth and some misinformation. As I said above, when a company can no longer afford the cost of labor they can downsize and look for a place with a more friendly labor market. But when a state faces labor costs that cannot be sustained, (and labor leaders stoically refuse to accommodate that state's inability to sustain), moving is not an option and downsizing, , , , , IS GOING TO HAPPEN , , , , As is evidenced by events in Wisconsin, things can get downright contentious.

Until labor leaders recognize it, and permit American workers to rise or fall on their individual merits , , , , , and save for rainy days and retirement, , , , just as their employers have always been required to do, , , nothing will get solved.

And Wisconsin is only the tip of the iceberg. There is no back-up. There is no plan B. There is only the need for state labor leaders to come to their senses or watch the state financially fall apart.

[verrip1]

Just because liberals 'feel' that people are out to eliminate unions in order to promote a return to serfdom doesn't mean that that fantasy is based on anything other than visceral ideology.

[deziloooooo]

Mar 6, 2011 17:56:24 GMT -5 henryclay said:

"........A Union is a union, formed for the same trasons...."

Some truth and some misinformation. As I said above, when a company can no longer afford the cost of labor they can downsize and look for a place with a more friendly labor market. But when a state faces labor costs that cannot be sustained, (and labor leaders stoically refuse to accommodate that state's inability to sustain), moving is not an option and downsizing, , , , , IS GOING TO HAPPEN , , , , As is evidenced by events in Wisconsin, things can get downright contentious.

Until labor leaders recognize it, and permit American workers to rise or fall on their individual merits , , , , , and save for rainy days and retirement, , , , just as their employers have always been required to do, , , nothing will get solved.

And Wisconsin is only the tip of the iceberg. There is no back-up. There is no plan B. There is only the need for state labor leaders to come to their senses or watch the state financially fall apart.

Henry , your correct if it was that desperate I guess a company could go off shore, build new plants elsewhere, but hoping many companies would like to keep there trained work forces where they are and the plants too and yes a state can't move off shore HOWEVER in this case,
"(and labor leaders stoically refuse to accommodate that state's inability to sustain),
the labor leaders gave in to the governors demands 100% , completely.
Are you asking for them to give in 125%/$150% of the demands?

The governor is now looking for his Lb of flesh. That Lb of flesh is not going to help the States budget at all.

Henry didn't you say you retired Military? The one who is sending your pension check every month is really in bad shape right now, and while they are sorry it has to come down to this, as of next month your going to have to accept 20% less in that check.
Uncle Sam feels it was to much anyway, past administrations were to generous, we , country, really can't afford it, you really put nothing into it, but they still thank you for your service.
By the way, he , Uncle Sam, is also looking into some tweaking of the health insurance benefits for veterans too, on that we'll, he, will get back to you, this is just a heads up. he knows you will understand that too.

Glad your the type who understands that.

[henryclay]

"...........the labor leaders gave in to the governors demands 100% , completely.
Are you asking for them to give in 125%/$150% of the demands? .......'

Don't you have that reversed, desi?

Hasn't it been the taxpayers in Wisconsin that have been giving the lions's share to state union employees, such that the state finances are depleted and they are up against a constitution that says NO MORE? I wonder what part of NO MORE is it that labor leaders can't, , , won't , , , recognize.

And, yes, I am retired military. Sacrificing for the good of the country comes with the uniform. If the taxpayers of this country can no longer support the military and the laws on the books that fund the military, then the military will . . . . plain and simple. . . . shrink or become serfs again. It is a reality that the country will have to deal with. The military will probably not be overjoyed about it, but tell me something new about that, will you?

And for general consumption, if there ever was a group of people who had the training to do it, the military family could overwhelm anything in existence and not work up a sweat. But because of the difference in mindsets, the military family takes its ordes, salutes and continues the march.

Or haven't you noticed?

[vonnie6200]

Mar 6, 2011 22:03:51 GMT -5 henryclay said:

"...........the labor leaders gave in to the governors demands 100% , completely.
Are you asking for them to give in 125%/$150% of the demands? .......'

Don't you have that reversed, desi?

Hasn't it been the taxpayers in Wisconsin that have been giving the lions's share to state union employees, such that the state finances are depleted and they are up against a constitution that says NO MORE? I wonder what part of NO MORE is it that labor leaders can't, , , won't , , , recognize.

And, yes, I am retired military. Sacrificing for the good of the country comes with the uniform. If the taxpayers of this country can no longer support the military and the laws on the books that fund the military, then the military will . . . . plain and simple. . . . shrink or become serfs again. It is a reality that the country will have to deal with. The military will probably not be overjoyed about it, but tell me something new about that, will you?

And for general consumption, if there ever was a group of people who had the training to do it, the military family could overwhelm anything in existence and not work up a sweat. But because of the difference in mindsets, the military family takes its ordes, salutes and continues the march.

Or haven't you noticed?

[deziloooooo]

Mar 6, 2011 22:03:51 GMT -5 henryclay said:

"...........the labor leaders gave in to the governors demands 100% , completely.
Are you asking for them to give in 125%/$150% of the demands? .......'

Don't you have that reversed, desi?

Hasn't it been the taxpayers in Wisconsin that have been giving the lions's share tsuch that the state finances are depleted o state union employees, and they are up against a constitution that says NO MORE? I wonder what part of NO MORE is it that labor leaders can't, , , won't , , , recognize.

And, yes, I am retired military. Sacrificing for the good of the country comes with the uniform. If the taxpayers of this country can no longer support the military and the laws on the books that fund the military, then the military will . . . . plain and simple. . . . shrink or become serfs again. It is a reality that the country will have to deal with. The military will probably not be overjoyed about it, but tell me something new about that, will you?

And for general consumption, if there ever was a group of people who had the training to do it, the military family could overwhelm anything in existence and not work up a sweat. But because of the difference in mindsets, the military family takes its ordes, salutes and continues the march.

Or haven't you noticed?

Henrey, doesn't seem to me you like answering questions put to you, you could do the military way , "no excuse sir", or try the civilian way, answer the question.....the Governor got all he wanted from those union leaderships he wanted, all, 100 %. Now it seems he wants his LB of flesh too, which has nothing to do with helping this budget. I guess you are into the Lb of flesh thing, I always was uncomfortable with that part of the puzzle .
"Hasn't it been the taxpayers in Wisconsin that have been giving the lions's share tsuch that the state finances are depleted o state union employees"
I didn't know you , military was into the scapegoat scenario. Your suggestion that WI is in the mess they are in financially because of and only because of or at least the great majority of, the problem lies at the feet of the public employee's ,not past administrations, populace demanding more from the state then the State can afford and in this particuler time, the little thing of the Governor reducing business taxes just about the same amount of the give backs that he wants to and has received from the unions.[Lets not forget his letting the three unions who supported himm off the hook on this one too, a bit of payback, no Lb of flesh toward them of course}
The reduction in your benefits Henry, same in a way as these Union people facing and you too contributed even less then then these people did toward their pensions and retirement health benefits.
Yet that part, your lack of contributions to those benefits, ok for you, but anyone else, {I'm not saying they should be so low, but they were}a sin?
If your explanation is military pay is low in comparison to civilian work , same skills, same responsibilities ...well teachers same answer, plus haveing to have much more education then average military..
More danger...fireman, police, how many military are in those zones...the thing is you do not contribute one $ toward your pension, unless changed , 50% after 20 and growing every year after that to max of 75%..and nothing I believe to your medical till after and a trifle after service compared to civilians, with medicare, part D, suppliments.

[henryclay]

desi, I sure didn't intend to set you off in such a blather. Your posts are hard enough to understand even when you're not talking upslope. Add just a tad of a challenge and , tch, tch, look at what happens. A feller ought to be more considerate, and I apologize.

Thank you for your concern for my pecuniary intersts, too. I can see right plain that am in good hands. I can see that all the way from here. With your support the union people in Wisconsin, and the military too, be well cared for.

What did I do to deserve such undying loyalty and support?

[workpublic]

With all the talk of Anti Unions here



which poster wants to do away with private sector coal miner's unions?


please stop trying to muddy the waters cause your cause is losing

[henryclay]

Excuse me wp, but wasn't it Obama that said he intended to curtail the coal mine industry operations entirely?

I betcha THAT'LL have a shutting down effect coal miner employee unions.

Whatcha think?

[workpublic]

they always say all unions, when they know damn well it's public sector unions only. same tactic on the illegal immigrant issue.

[ed1066]

they always say all unions, when they know damn well it's public sector unions only. same tactic on the illegal immigrant issue.

Exactly, however I just always thought the pro-illegal crowd were too stupid to know the difference between an immigrant and and illegal alien...

[hello fromWarsaw]

Actually Obama is funding research into clean coal...and this thread is about Harding and usual pubcrappe- corruption , greed, and squashing the non rich...

[deziloooooo]

Mar 7, 2011 20:39:01 GMT -5 hello fromWarsaw said:

Actually Obama is funding research into clean coal...and this thread is about Harding and usual pubcrappe- corruption , greed, and squashing the non rich...

We have so much of it , it can be a blessing if it can be done, it's reasonable priced , a great idea, especially as the oil keeps climbing in price and who knows were it will end, and the $ are going off shore to get it.

[hello fromWarsaw]

Here's breaking news for Ed- it's the mega rich pubs who love the illegals and cheap labor- all their useless, unconstitutional laws and useless fences that will never happen are smokescreen for the dupes and trolls.