justme
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Post by justme on Jan 20, 2015 18:05:13 GMT -5
I don't get why you want to be conservative? You want it to be worth more so you're at 120ltv and get a lower rate.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 20, 2015 18:16:10 GMT -5
I don't get why you want to be conservative? You want it to be worth more so you're at 120ltv and get a lower rate. She's going to have to pay for an appraisal @ about $400. Refis are notorious for having low ball appraisals.
They are going to have to just keep plugging away at the debt until it gets to $168k or the house appreciates some more. Since they can afford it they just need to keep the course. I'd check the value again just after the summer season (say Sept 1) and see if values have gone up.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 20, 2015 18:18:32 GMT -5
Ah, so of the three she's seen they'd need the highest number in order to get the refi.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 18:37:49 GMT -5
And Home 6, if you can convert the half bathroom into a full bathroom (even a shower bathroom), that would add value too. That's obviously not something you'd do with the tenants living there, but if / when they leave, that would allow you to charge more rent too.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 20, 2015 18:56:04 GMT -5
Bonny,
Unless you own a home until it's free and clear, paying down the principal does not yield any rate of return at all. On a fixed rate mortgage this will shorten the term, and at that time the extra principal has created a return by decreasing the maximum interest the loan would have required to be paid in full for the entire length of the loan. Until then, you have simply sent it to your lender and decreased the debt owed. This does build equity but it's not like you are earning 4.9% on it.
Better to put it into a side fund. Take the yearly amount and stick it into a 1 yr. CD at 1.15% compounded daily. At the start of year two do that again and roll the first one over. This rainy day reserve fund can come in handy for any home related issues. You give it to the lender and it's gone until the property is sold. I don't look at the situation the same way as you do.
They are upside around $50k. Interest rate is about 5%. The area in which the property is located is slowly appreciating but not by much. $50k / $146k value is 34%. It's going to take a long time to appreciate to the value they paid + sales costs. At 2% to 3% annual appreciation it's going to take about 10 years. And like I said in my previous post there's likely to be another recessionary cycle during that time frame where property drops 20%.
So at this point I'd view the $50k like any other consumer debt. Since they have the (personal) cash flow it's probably easier for them to keep throwing a little extra money at the 5% loan to help pay it down vs creating another/additional liquid savings that doesn't earn them anything. I would have different advice if they couldn't afford the property or didn't have sufficient savings.
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Jan 20, 2015 19:13:35 GMT -5
Bonny, with DH's mindset, if the money is in savings, then we have it to spend. So I take a LOT out of the BoA accounts as soon as he gets paid and transfer it to USAA. I mention this because with us tossing an extra 125 dollars at the mortgage per month is better in his mind (paying down debt), than putting money in a savings account. Or CD, Roth, or whatever.
Guess I'm not doing my own taxes this year!
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 20, 2015 19:25:48 GMT -5
So at this point I'd view the $50k like any other consumer debt. Since they have the (personal) cash flow it's probably easier for them to keep throwing a little extra money at the 5% loan to help pay it down vs creating another/additional liquid savings that doesn't earn them anything. I would have different advice if they couldn't afford the property or didn't have sufficient savings.
Bonny, Funds set aside do earn interest, just not much right now. One yr. cd's can yield 1+% right now. Funds sent to the lender yield -0-. They do not earn 4.9% as you stated. All the rest of their problem doesn't change that scenario. In fact, if things got drastic and they were going to lose the house to foreclosure or forced to short sell, that additional $1500/yr. has been lit on fire and is gone...gone...gone.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 20, 2015 19:36:48 GMT -5
Home6,
How much have you been taking for depreciation on Schedule E? That accountant will probably more than pay for themself with a couple amended tax returns.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 19:39:05 GMT -5
Dondub, I think you need to reread Home's last post ... this seems to be the only long-term investment her DH thinks is worth investing in. For some people money in savings = money to spend, and apparently Home 6's husband is one of those people. Home 6, you have a lot more patience than I do, that's for sure.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 20, 2015 19:56:47 GMT -5
Bonny, with DH's mindset, if the money is in savings, then we have it to spend. So I take a LOT out of the BoA accounts as soon as he gets paid and transfer it to USAA. I mention this because with us tossing an extra 125 dollars at the mortgage per month is better in his mind (paying down debt), than putting money in a savings account. Or CD, Roth, or whatever. Guess I'm not doing my own taxes this year! But you're taking money off the top for TSP savings or whatever the Fed 401k type plan is correct? And DH will have a military pension?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 20, 2015 20:13:18 GMT -5
So at this point I'd view the $50k like any other consumer debt. Since they have the (personal) cash flow it's probably easier for them to keep throwing a little extra money at the 5% loan to help pay it down vs creating another/additional liquid savings that doesn't earn them anything. I would have different advice if they couldn't afford the property or didn't have sufficient savings.
Bonny, Funds set aside do earn interest, just not much right now. One yr. cd's can yield 1+% right now. Funds sent to the lender yield -0-. They do not earn 4.9% as you stated. All the rest of their problem doesn't change that scenario. In fact, if things got drastic and they were going to lose the house to foreclosure or forced to short sell, that additional $1500/yr. has been lit on fire and is gone...gone...gone. She's saving that 4.9% interest by paying off the debt.
At this snapshot in time she would have to pay $18k to be able to refi (and we don't know whether it actually makes sense to refi since we don't know the terms).
If they were planning on holding this property for 20 years I'd say no sweat just let it pay itself off and keep raising the rent, it will work itself out. But they want OUT. The faster they can dig themselves out the better. At the current rate I'm guessing it's going to be another 5 years before they can sell IF we don't go into another recession.
FWIW I don't pre-pay my low rate fixed-rate mortgages on my rental properties because I'm using leverage to my advantage. But I'm not in the same situation. I've got a lot of equity and positive CF for all but one property (took over with 0 down, now have 40% gross equity). Different financial situation therefore different advice.
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Jan 20, 2015 20:17:58 GMT -5
Home6,
How much have you been taking for depreciation on Schedule E? That accountant will probably more than pay for themself with a couple amended tax returns. Last year was -$739. If I'm reading it right. Bonny, DH is contributing to the TSP, and he is staying in until his 20, meaning retirement. debthaven, don't I know it (with the patience). "Hiding" money is exhausting. I'm going to have a nice long chat with him about our finances during the move, when he's trapped in the car and can't escape. Muhahhaha!!!
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 20, 2015 20:22:44 GMT -5
Did you miss my post that says there is no return on extra principal until the entire debt is paid and not through selling the house? The only way to get any return is pay it off and have the term shortened because of that. That is not even under consideration in this scenario. Just paying down the debt yields -0-% return on her $125/mo. Thus putting funds into a side fund, even if it earns very little interest, is better for a couple reasons....some rate of return vs. -0-, rainy day fund, keeping liquidity instead of sending it to her lender.
I will go further and say this: anyone that pays extra on their mortgage that is not trying to own it free and clear, yet has the financial discipline to put the same funds into side fund, is making a mistake.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 20, 2015 20:26:19 GMT -5
Home6,
Yes, you need to amend every return since you turned this into a rental if you have taken that small amount. If you want to do it yourself, find out what the improvement value of your property was on the tax assessment at time you rented, divide that by 27.5 years, and that is the number you can use for your depreciation expense. Then find out how to file amended returns and wait for a nice check.
Although I do suggest a good tax accountant for RE investors.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 20, 2015 20:47:25 GMT -5
Did you miss my post that says there is no return on extra principal until the entire debt is paid and not through selling the house? The only way to get any return is pay it off and have the term shortened because of that. That is not even under consideration in this scenario. Just paying down the debt yields -0-% return on her $125/mo. Thus putting funds into a side fund, even if it earns very little interest, is better for a couple reasons....some rate of return vs. -0-, rainy day fund, keeping liquidity instead of sending it to her lender.
I will go further and say this: anyone that pays extra on their mortgage that is not trying to own it free and clear, yet has the financial discipline to put the same funds into side fund, is making a mistake.
Don, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.
By pre paying the mortgage she's no longer paying interest on money she no longer owes. Therefore she's saving money on interest. Since she's paying more down on the loan she will owe less and that has an accelerating action. If she's essentially paying the equivalent of one extra payment per year it will shorten the term to about 20 years. Regardless, that approximately $ 1500/yr will chip away at the current $18k deficit to refi. The extra payment plus appreciation should get her to the 120% LTV she needs to refi (if that's what she chooses).
In any case that's what I would do if I were in the OP's shoes.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jan 20, 2015 21:45:34 GMT -5
VA Streamline refi - I don't think you got an answer? They apply only to your personal residence, not to investment property. Additionally lenders charge a premium on rental loans (to cover their added risk). Landlords pay between 0.5 and 1.5% more interest. So you really want to keep your 4.9% 30-yr fixed rate loan, it's a winner. (and better than my rentals)
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Jan 20, 2015 21:52:34 GMT -5
Phil, I can't do a VA refinance because we are too far underwater on the mortgage. (Based on my conservative estimate of what the house is worth). It was never meant to be a rental property for this long, meaning that we were hoping to have stayed in the area more than a year and a half, by the way, it just kinda had to be that way.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 20, 2015 22:14:53 GMT -5
Don, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.
Of course! However, in this case yours is an opinion and mine is a fact.
By pre paying the mortgage she's no longer paying interest on money she no longer owes.
She has a fixed rate loan. Pre-paying interest does not lower her payment in any way, it only shortens the term. Have you read all my posts on this? The only way pre-paying interest yields a return...shortening the term so she pays less interest, is if she retains the property for the life of the shortened term. I have seen no indication that Home6 wants to own this house for 20+ years. I have seen you state she is earning 4.9% on this money. It earns nothing until the home is F&C. Even if they sell the house prior to the F&C status the prepaid principal does not yield a thing except a higher equity position.
Therefore she's saving money on interest.
Not until the loan is paid off by doing that, and not by a refi or sale.
Since she's paying more down on the loan she will owe less and that has an accelerating action. If she's essentially paying the equivalent of one extra payment per year it will shorten the term to about 20 years.
Yes, that's true, it does build equity and I have stated that. What it does not do is yield any return on the prepaid principal until that point, and that is what the discussion is about. You have repeatedly claimed that it does but it does not.
Regardless, that approximately $ 1500/yr will chip away at the current $18k deficit to refi. The extra payment plus appreciation should get her to the 120% LTV she needs to refi (if that's what she chooses).
It is true that paying the extra $1500 will build equity (by decreasing the current negative equity position). Whether she can refi on a N/O/O basis when she gets to that point years from now relies on a very favorable lending environment. I doubt they ever get there unless some solid appreciation kicks in. Plus, not knowing what her current interest rate is and what it might cost to do a refi that has a decent payback period to make sense, who can tell if it would ever be in their interest. Isn't the rate mid 4's right now? What is the current price for a 120%LTV N?O?O refi at a time when rates are historically low?
In any case that's what I would do if I were in the OP's shoes.
Unless she wants to own F&C and does not have the financial discipline to keep a side fund untouched, she would be better off doing an interest bearing side fund. 1, 3, 5, 10 years later that fund will have more in it than she has reduced the principal on her current loan. Once again, this is a mathematical fact due to the side fund earning interest whereas the prepaid principal does not. Plus, they have the added benefit of the liquidity and an emergency fund capability in time of need.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 21, 2015 12:16:47 GMT -5
Show me how this works?
When I run an amortization schedule from Bank rate.com here's what I get:
$186,000 Balance 5% rate 27 years remaining from 2/1/15 (the on-line calculator wouldn't let me use a different date for some reason)
Principle Balance with no pre-pay
186,657 2/1/16 167,485 2/1/20 143,724 2/1/25
Principle Balance with $125 monthly pre-pay
181,122 2/1/16 158,984 2/1/20 124,314 2/1/25
Principle on $125/mth invested @1%/yr
1633 2/1/16 7818 2/1/20 15903 2/1/25
The difference between the principle loan balance vs the $125 principle pay down is ALWAYS higher than the amount in the savings account @1% because of the cumulative effect of not paying 5% on a larger balance.
5535 2/1/16 8501 2/1/20 19410 2/1/25
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 21, 2015 12:32:59 GMT -5
The Home 6, Getting back to your OP, if your husband wants to sell after the current tenant leaves he'll need to be prepared to bring about $50k to the table to protect his security clearance for his current job as well as any future job he might take in the civilian world which would also require a security clearance. Under the circumstances if it were me I would raise the rent incrementally and drop the home warranty as has already been suggested. Because you seem to have both retirement and liquidity addressed, I would keep chipping away at your mortgage pre-pay. From a cash-flow point of view it's a forced savings plan that will give you more options down the road since default isn't a viable option. Once a year check both the valuation of the property as well as the option to refi at a lower rate. I wish there was an easier answer but unless the property appreciates substantially I think you're going to have to keep working on this for about 5 years. I know this seems like a long time but you'll get there. Good luck!
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Jan 21, 2015 15:40:59 GMT -5
Bonny, DH is firm about selling once our tenants leave. He sees this house as a money pit more than an investment most of the time. I explained to him about paying it down so we don't have to bring so much to the table to pay it off when we do sell, and he gets it. He doesn't like it, but he gets it. Just gotta keep on keeping on.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 21, 2015 16:18:08 GMT -5
Bonny, DH is firm about selling once our tenants leave. He sees this house as a money pit more than an investment most of the time. I explained to him about paying it down so we don't have to bring so much to the table to pay it off when we do sell, and he gets it. He doesn't like it, but he gets it. Just gotta keep on keeping on. Although it's probably not the choice most of us are advising you it's certainly understandable. Here's wishing you lots of appreciation in the meantime.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 21, 2015 16:27:44 GMT -5
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Jan 21, 2015 16:38:47 GMT -5
Home6,
I can surely appreciate your husbands position but with some tweaking it may not be a money pit afterall. I now agree with Bonny that the prepaid principal is a good idea but this troubles the DH as he considers it part of the money pit problem. Tell him what Bonny has said and show him the link I just posted. Then do the following: 1. Raise the rent March 1. 2. Cancel the Home Warranty. 3. Adjust your insurance deductible upwards towards $5000 and see what that will save you. Your agent can quote today. 4. Examine your Depreciation tax shelter numbers. You should be able to take wayyyy more but also amend any tax returns and get a nice check from Uncle.
When you have accomplished this ask your new tax accountant what the after tax loss will be on this for 2015 and calculate expected appreciation for the year. Is what is left over a positive number? If so, it's not a money pit at all, just an investment that needs more time to mature. This is very common for RE investments.
If you sell, you will actualize your loss and there is no climbing back from that. You will drain liquids....up to $55K right now with paying off the balance, closing costs, possible sale concessions re: work orders etc.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jan 21, 2015 18:07:31 GMT -5
Thanks Don, it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.
FWIW I'm usually in Phil's camp about not prepaying a cheap mortgage and keeping the money invested in the S&P 500. But when people ask for advice one has to look at their situation holistically and individually.
They want to get out from under the albatross ASAP vs a 20-30 year plan of keeping the property.
Unlike a lot of people in a similar situation they; 1. Can actually afford to keep the house/service the negative (but understandably don't like it). 2. Can't really default given the current and future employment situation. 3. Are sufficiently liquid with $50k in liquid funds. 4. Appear to be saving sufficiently for retirement.
Therefore from my perspective the real question to answer is "I have some monthly discretionary funds; what's the best way to get out from under this bad investment?" And I agree with you that with the tweaks suggested by you and others in this thread they could very well turn this bad investment around in a few years without a major hit to their savings or monthly CF.
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Jan 21, 2015 18:28:07 GMT -5
Bonny, DH is firm about selling once our tenants leave. He sees this house as a money pit more than an investment most of the time. I explained to him about paying it down so we don't have to bring so much to the table to pay it off when we do sell, and he gets it. He doesn't like it, but he gets it. Just gotta keep on keeping on. Although it's probably not the choice most of us are advising you it's certainly understandable. Here's wishing you lots of appreciation in the meantime. And who knows? They have not made any indication that they want to leave. They could stay for years yet.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jan 21, 2015 18:39:52 GMT -5
Although it's probably not the choice most of us are advising you it's certainly understandable. Here's wishing you lots of appreciation in the meantime. And who knows? They have not made any indication that they want to leave. They could stay for years yet. Start slowly raising the rent
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 21, 2015 19:10:28 GMT -5
First things first: our renters have made NO indication that they want to move. They are the most lovely renters, we have never had a problem with them, and after reading horror stories from other landlords, I wish I could send them to some of you! If they do move. Which they have never said they want to do.
I read that you have not raised the rent in 6 years. At just 3%/yr., current rent would be $1074 which is close to the market price you indicated. By not doing this you have dug yourself a hole that is hard to get out of unless they move and you can market at current pricing. They are great tenants because they are happily $200 under and don't want to rock the boat. You need to raise the rent immediately at least $75/mo. Check your local market and see what else they could move into for $975-$1000.
From a financial standpoint at the moment- our rental home is a money pit. We charge our renters $900 per month and are paying $1450 on the mortgage. (~$125 of that is extra principal.) So that's a loss of $6600 per year. We are also paying for bug treatments every 3 months, and termite inspection every year, also home warranty.
Not being privy to your tax returns I'm not sure how bad it is after taxes. You have the Depreciation tax shelter plus write off from your expenses exceeding gross income. 1. Does the payment include taxes and insurance? 2. Do the tenants pay the utilities? 3. Why do you consider the extra $1500/yr. on principal as part of your loss of $6600? This is actually an equity builder by paying down your loan, (even with the current negative position) but I would stop that and put it into a reserve account. You did mention the roof right? 4. Do you have a RE savvy tax accountant? With the depreciation benefit and the operating loss, you are lowering your tax liability on other incomes, as the Schedule E numbers directly affect your adjusted gross income. It's not as bad as you think, but a pro could help you analyze your position. 5. Do you have bugs that come around every 90 days? Are termites active in your area? Is the Home Warranty worth the expense?
The house is worth $146,000 according to Chase, $134,000 on Zillow, and $150,000 at Smartzip. We owe $186,000 on the mortgage.
If our renters ever decide to move (it is a 3 bedroom, 1 1/2 bath house and they just had kid #3), my husband wants us to sell. I don't know what I want to do. I'd like to hear your advice.
If you sell, you actualize your capital loss and will also get a write off on that over an extended period. You will also be nearly tapped out on liquids and the cost to sell will be $11-14k plus any work orders you may need to pay for on top of the cash you need to pay-off the underwater mortgage. My advice would be to hold this long term and continue to lick your wounds while you wait for a better time. If the tenants absorb the rent increase, do it again in 15 months. If they move, re-lease at market price. It might be then that after taxes you are losing little and can afford to roll it into the future.
Good luck! Wish I saw your post before I posted- but this is a long thread. On this, we agree!
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jan 21, 2015 19:53:58 GMT -5
I agree you need to speak with an experienced tax accountant. Rentals that are cash flow negative result in huge tax savings. You are only looking at a few pieces of the pie - get an expert to show you the whole picture before you decide anything.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 21, 2015 19:54:29 GMT -5
Oh, an idea, if you're not strapped for money you could keep sending the same amount you are now and add what you raise the rent. So if you raise it 100 you'd be sending 225 extra.
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