Deleted
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Jan 16, 2015 12:24:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 12:24:35 GMT -5
The year 2014 ranks as Earth’s warmest since 1880, according to two separate analyses by NASA and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) scientists. The 10 warmest years in the instrumental record, with the exception of 1998, have now occurred since 2000. This trend continues a long-term warming of the planet, according to an analysis of surface temperature measurements by scientists at NASA’s Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS) in New York. In an independent analysis of the raw data, also released Friday, NOAA scientists also found 2014 to be the warmest climate.nasa.gov/news
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b2r
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Jan 19, 2015 13:10:00 GMT -5
Post by b2r on Jan 19, 2015 13:10:00 GMT -5
#Theypaymetosaythat
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djAdvocate
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Jan 19, 2015 13:51:12 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2015 13:51:12 GMT -5
b2r: if you knew that you had a 38% chance of dying in a car crash today, would you drive?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jan 19, 2015 21:27:12 GMT -5
b2r: if you knew that you had a 38% chance of dying in a car crash today, would you drive? On the road I have to drive, I'm pretty sure its about 50/50...every day. But I gotta work!
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 19, 2015 21:57:43 GMT -5
Seems disingenuous to say the least.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jan 19, 2015 22:27:38 GMT -5
That is gonna feed the "Oh my God, we're gonna self ignite!" movement, aka environmentalists for a while Heads up for more EPA restrictions in US, Canada and Western Europe while China doesn't care and keeps churning billions of litle things made of plastic to be sold in US. The Earth, our planet, goes through cycles of self warming and cooling. Do humans have an impact on the warming process? Sure but not to the extent of that claimed. Nature itself produces more CO2and other gases due to decay of dead vegetation and animals.
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djAdvocate
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Jan 19, 2015 22:29:17 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2015 22:29:17 GMT -5
Seems disingenuous to say the least. give jkapp a break, fc.
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djAdvocate
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Jan 19, 2015 22:30:11 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2015 22:30:11 GMT -5
That is gonna feed the "Oh my God, we're gonna self ignite!" movement, aka environmentalists for a while Heads up for more EPA restrictions in US, Canada and Western Europe while China doesn't care and keeps churning billions of litle things made of plastic to be sold in US. The Earth, our planet, goes through cycles of self warming and cooling. Do humans have an impact on the warming process? Sure but not to the extent of that claimed. Nature itself produces more CO2and other gases due to decay of dead vegetation and animals. you seem worried about the environmentalists, and not worried about the environment. mind me asking why?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jan 19, 2015 22:39:10 GMT -5
Not worried at all about environmentalists. When I get the chance I in fact listen to what they have to say but try to discern between what can be backed with real facts and research and the interpreted kind to fit their movement. And US, Canada and WE putting more and more restrictions on emissions burdening so certain industries(not that they would do something about pollution on their own) and not do anything about the rest of the World doesn't solve the problem.
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djAdvocate
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Jan 20, 2015 0:00:03 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 20, 2015 0:00:03 GMT -5
Not worried at all about environmentalists. When I get the chance I in fact listen to what they have to say but try to discern between what can be backed with real facts and research and the interpreted kind to fit their movement. And US, Canada and WE putting more and more restrictions on emissions burdening so certain industries(not that they would do something about pollution on their own) and not do anything about the rest of the World doesn't solve the problem. i agree that China and India are likely to be vastly more important to solving the problem than we are. do you know why they are pushing back about this?
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EVT1
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Jan 20, 2015 0:22:13 GMT -5
Post by EVT1 on Jan 20, 2015 0:22:13 GMT -5
Really? You dumbasses are going to believe the eggheads and their thermometers? It's just a myth. It is a subversive movement to take money from billionaires that create all the jobs
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Deleted
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Jan 20, 2015 13:24:20 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 13:24:20 GMT -5
#Theypaymetosaythat Even with a 0.02c difference with a 0.1c range of error, it was still a very warm year. I've already absorbed a 20% increase in my electric rate due to EPA requirements. Why are we still warming?
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Virgil Showlion
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Jan 20, 2015 15:38:24 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 20, 2015 15:38:24 GMT -5
b2r: if you knew that you had a 38% chance of dying in a car crash today, would you drive? If a particular seller on amazon.com had a 38% chance of actually sending you your purchases, would you buy from him? And anyway, the climate change skeptics' position is that the warming trend has plateaued since 1995. An increase less than 20% the margin of error fits their thesis better than it does the J-curve theories.
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mroped
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Jan 20, 2015 15:40:56 GMT -5
Post by mroped on Jan 20, 2015 15:40:56 GMT -5
Who's pushing what back? I lost you there, sorry! And EVT1 I get your sarcasm and no billionaires don't create jobs, I know that. Simple things as suply and demand create jobs . And billionaires don't pay the emission taxes, the companies that they own do that. I tought you were a lawyer or something like that!(snap! )
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mroped
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Jan 20, 2015 15:58:46 GMT -5
Post by mroped on Jan 20, 2015 15:58:46 GMT -5
I, in fact, acknowledge the global warming as a reality. It happens and there are steps that we could take to at least keep it under control. What it gets me thou, is the hype that the environmentalist are creating by stretching the truth. And all the lobbying that goes on on the issue, and the fact that they have so much sway in politics(almost as much as the biggest polluters!) it is a vicious circle: we want cleaner air/water but we are not willing to give up tjings that are making us comfortable and we don't wanna pay more for a product that will in fact be more efficient or protective of environment. Ie: we want cheap energy but we don't wanna burn coal( scrubbers are out of question for being to expensive) because it pollutes, we don't want nuclear because it might explode, we don't want to build hydro plants because the fish needs to migrate and wind and solar are ineficient and expensive. The government pours billions in grants into private sector for the purpose of R& . Where are the results? The Earth's temperature is a very finicky thing. A couple degrees up or down in an area and all is lost or about to.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 20, 2015 17:04:50 GMT -5
b2r: if you knew that you had a 38% chance of dying in a car crash today, would you drive? If a particular seller on amazon.com had a 38% chance of actually sending you your purchases, would you buy from him? And anyway, the climate change skeptics' position is that the warming trend has plateaued since 1995. An increase less than 20% the margin of error fits their thesis better than it does the J-curve theories. you consider getting an Amazon order undesirable?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 20, 2015 18:48:29 GMT -5
That is gonna feed the "Oh my God, we're gonna self ignite!" movement, aka environmentalists for a while Heads up for more EPA restrictions in US, Canada and Western Europe while China doesn't care and keeps churning billions of litle things made of plastic to be sold in US.
The Earth, our planet, goes through cycles of self warming and cooling. Do humans have an impact on the warming process? Sure but not to the extent of that claimed. Nature itself produces more CO2and other gases due to decay of dead vegetation and animals. If the US stopped BUYING the plastic crap churned out in China, they wouldn't churn out so much of it. But sure...blame China.
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mroped
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Jan 20, 2015 18:50:32 GMT -5
Post by mroped on Jan 20, 2015 18:50:32 GMT -5
It works for me, blaming China!
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Virgil Showlion
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Jan 20, 2015 20:41:59 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 20, 2015 20:41:59 GMT -5
If a particular seller on amazon.com had a 38% chance of actually sending you your purchases, would you buy from him? And anyway, the climate change skeptics' position is that the warming trend has plateaued since 1995. An increase less than 20% the margin of error fits their thesis better than it does the J-curve theories. you consider getting an Amazon order undesirable? You consider Earth's mean temperature rising by two hundredths of a degree as meaningful to b2r's existence as dying in a car crash?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 20, 2015 20:46:42 GMT -5
I'm in the pesticide business. Warm weather = $$$$$. So bring it.
P.S. 2014 was not a great year. So if the earth was warm, it wasn't in the USA.
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djAdvocate
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Jan 20, 2015 21:01:28 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 20, 2015 21:01:28 GMT -5
you consider getting an Amazon order undesirable? You consider Earth's mean temperature rising by two hundredths of a degree as meaningful to b2r's existence as dying in a car crash? if that is the comparison you thought i was trying to make, then i can see why you mocked me for it. question: why do you always assume i am some kind of idiot, Virgil? i really would like to know.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jan 20, 2015 22:36:00 GMT -5
That is gonna feed the "Oh my God, we're gonna self ignite!" movement, aka environmentalists for a while Heads up for more EPA restrictions in US, Canada and Western Europe while China doesn't care and keeps churning billions of litle things made of plastic to be sold in US.
The Earth, our planet, goes through cycles of self warming and cooling. Do humans have an impact on the warming process? Sure but not to the extent of that claimed. Nature itself produces more CO2and other gases due to decay of dead vegetation and animals. If the US stopped BUYING the plastic crap churned out in China, they wouldn't churn out so much of it. But sure...blame China. Or just keep blaming the US for everything. If we don't buy from China, the next thing you'd probably say is it's because of racism or egocentrism or isolationist, and that we can't do everything ourselves because it's a global world. Personally I think environmentalism should be a non-issue issue. Even if, for the sake of argument, global warming wasn't a real phenomenon....I would think that having cleaner air, being less dependent on foreign countries for energy, and working to leave the world in a better place than we left it would be a good thing. Now the issue is that sounds good, until people have to actually pay for it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 20, 2015 22:52:43 GMT -5
If the US stopped BUYING the plastic crap churned out in China, they wouldn't churn out so much of it. But sure...blame China. Or just keep blaming the US for everything. If we don't buy from China, the next thing you'd probably say is it's because of racism or egocentrism or isolationist, and that we can't do everything ourselves because it's a global world. Personally I think environmentalism should be a non-issue issue. Even if, for the sake of argument, global warming wasn't a real phenomenon....I would think that having cleaner air, being less dependent on foreign countries for energy, and working to leave the world in a better place than we left it would be a good thing. Now the issue is that sounds good, until people have to actually pay for it. You have people stampeding and killing each other because there's a 50% off sale on cheap Chinese crap at Walmart. Then, when curbing emissions is suggested, they point their fingers at China. It's the very height of audacity and hypocrisy. It's much like a morbidly obese person who can't control stuffing his piehole, turning around and blaming the bakeries for his troubles. "It's not my fault! It's the damn bakeries!"
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EVT1
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Jan 20, 2015 23:31:34 GMT -5
Post by EVT1 on Jan 20, 2015 23:31:34 GMT -5
I'm in the pesticide business. Warm weather = $$$$$. So bring it. P.S. 2014 was not a great year. So if the earth was warm, it wasn't in the USA. That's how corporations think- how can I make money off of it
If it destroys the planet in the future who gives a shit- the people running them have to exercise and spend those options sooner rather than later.
All of us will be dead before climate change takes a toll- so the only real argument is if we should be selfish assholes or not.
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Virgil Showlion
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Jan 21, 2015 1:58:43 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 21, 2015 1:58:43 GMT -5
You consider Earth's mean temperature rising by two hundredths of a degree as meaningful to b2r's existence as dying in a car crash? if that is the comparison you thought i was trying to make, then i can see why you mocked me for it. question: why do you always assume i am some kind of idiot, Virgil? i really would like to know. Here we go again. Not 24 hours after you insisted you don't easily take offense. Why is it that with increasing frequency you take my criticisms of your arguments as my assuming you're an idiot? There's nothing remotely critical of your intellect in my post. I'm using a rhetorical question to attack your car crash analogy. If you disapprove of my means, I can also point out to you in the past where you've said you yourself often introduce criticisms with rhetorical questions. If you want a more straightforward version of the embedded criticisms, they are: - (Reply #12) Your car crash question is characterized by disastrous type-II (false negative) consequences and mildly inconvenient type-I (false positive) consequences. The two sets of consequences are hugely disproportionate. This disproportionality clearly doesn't apply to b2r's skepticism of the temperature data. Firstly, because even if the data point is accurate, it's one datum among hundreds (and it moreover suggests a negligible degree of warming). Secondly, because you know as well as I do that the costs of combating climate change as TPTB would have us combat it are enormous. There's no extreme disproportionality between the two. Any analogs between the pretext of your question and b2r's skepticism fail for this reason.
- (Reply #18) The same criticism as in Reply #12, stated directly. If you're going to poke at b2r's skepticism, use type-I and type-II consequences that are within an order of magnitude of each other. I used an amazon shipping order because I consider the consequences of missing out on an unbelievable deal to be within 2-3 times the magnitude of the consequences of not getting an order shipped. Similarly, I'd wager most people on the denialist-to-alarmist AGW climate spectrum would put the magnitude of the consequences of acting now between 33% and 300% the magnitude of the consequences of waiting for more data. Your car crash analogy is what? 10,000-to-1? 100,000-to-1?
Having said all of this, perhaps what you meant by your question is challenging b2r to consider whether butterflies dream and the moon is made of Cheeze Whiz, or something else that couldn't in a million years be inferred the question you actually asked in the context in which you asked it. So here's a thought: if you don't want me attacking your deliberately obfuscated questions, stop asking deliberately obfuscated questions. Or at least get used to explaining, "I was actually asking about butterfly dreams, Virgil," instead of accusing me of treating you like an idiot.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 21, 2015 8:27:31 GMT -5
I'm in the pesticide business. Warm weather = $$$$$. So bring it. P.S. 2014 was not a great year. So if the earth was warm, it wasn't in the USA. That's how corporations think- how can I make money off of it
If it destroys the planet in the future who gives a shit- the people running them have to exercise and spend those options sooner rather than later.
All of us will be dead before climate change takes a toll- so the only real argument is if we should be selfish assholes or not. I think most of us are selfish assholes, we just like to pretend we are not.
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fairlycrazy23
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Jan 21, 2015 10:58:51 GMT -5
Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 21, 2015 10:58:51 GMT -5
I'm in the pesticide business. Warm weather = $$$$$. So bring it. P.S. 2014 was not a great year. So if the earth was warm, it wasn't in the USA. Global Greening
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Virgil Showlion
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Jan 21, 2015 11:05:42 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 21, 2015 11:05:42 GMT -5
I'm in the pesticide business. Warm weather = $$$$$. So bring it. P.S. 2014 was not a great year. So if the earth was warm, it wasn't in the USA. Global GreeningPseudoscience. You can tell it isn't real science because it's conclusions aren't, "We will all die a slow, hellish death unless we all send a tenth of our gross income to JP Morgan."
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djAdvocate
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Jan 21, 2015 22:45:16 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 21, 2015 22:45:16 GMT -5
if that is the comparison you thought i was trying to make, then i can see why you mocked me for it. question: why do you always assume i am some kind of idiot, Virgil? i really would like to know. Here we go again. Not 24 hours after you insisted you don't easily take offense. Why is it that with increasing frequency you take my criticisms of your arguments as my assuming you're an idiot? There's nothing remotely critical of your intellect in my post. I'm using a rhetorical question to attack your car crash analogy. If you disapprove of my means, I can also point out to you in the past where you've said you yourself often introduce criticisms with rhetorical questions. I am not offended, Virgil. I am just curious. what made you think I was offended? that I used the word IDIOT?
if I were angry, I would tell you so. I just get perennially puzzled by your persistently pugnatious posts.
and I never claimed that you were being critical. It just seems like you assume the absolute worst in people.
you didn't answer that question, and it appears you have no intention to do so, so never mind. it is not that important.
just puzzling.
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djAdvocate
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Jan 21, 2015 22:57:00 GMT -5
Post by djAdvocate on Jan 21, 2015 22:57:00 GMT -5
you consider getting an Amazon order undesirable? You consider Earth's mean temperature rising by two hundredths of a degree as meaningful to b2r's existence as dying in a car crash? you didn't answer my question, but I will answer yours. however, I will also point out that this is typical of our conversations. you spend more time mocking my questions than answering them. for the record, this rather benign question as meant in absolute earnest, and had nothing behind it other than my curiosity.
as to YOUR question, I think a great number of people perceive global warming as an existential threat. I am not one of them, for the record. but to those people, I think the analogy would seem rather meek. after all, it is not everyone else's life I was talking about.
the immediacy of the threat is also immaterial. the question was an analogy, not an attempt at creating a precise comparison. but in addition, who cares if there is only a 38% chance that last year is a record, when 8 out of the last 10 years were records, and the general trend is not good? do you think that last year NOT being a new record changes anything? I don't.
now, I could have called out b2r for being silly, for that reason. I didn't. instead, I tried to understand the thought process that was behind it by asking something I THOUGHT was analogous. but rather than getting credit for that, it appears that you seem to think I was mocking him or something, and rallied bravely to his defense. I could have also taken the piss out of you for defending people who can surely defend themselves, but I have noted that when I do this, you typically ignore it, so I didn't do that either, before now.
so, to conclude, I don't think your question reflects the original objection, nor does it present a counterargument that inspires anything other than ennui.
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