Payday loan lenders

[resolution]

Texas is putting a small number of people in jail for being unable to repay their payday loans. www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/29/texas-payday-lending_n_6355602.html?ir=Business

[Shooby]

There used to be a debtor's prison.

[resolution]

Debtor's prison used to be illegal.

[EVT1]

Maybe we should just skip all of the bullshit and just stick poor people in private prisons and force them to assemble Iphones.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 1, 2015 15:30:40 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Maybe we should just skip all of the bullshit and just stick poor people in private prisons and force them to assemble Iphones.

That's one way to bring manufacturing jobs back to the States.

[EVT1]

Yep- the one thing that beats cheap overseas labor is nearly free local labor subsidized by taxpayers.  Chinese dorms, CCA prison- doesn't matter too much to some corporations.  If they can't have slavery then why not the next best thing.

Speaking of scumbag predatory businesses:

finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/top-5-secrets-private-prison-industry-163005314.html

     The prison industry has also made money by contracting prison labor to private companies. The companies that have benefited from this cheap labor include Starbucks (SBUX), Boeing (BA), Victoria’s Secret, McDonalds (MCD) and even the U.S. military. Prison laborers cost between 93 cents and $4 a day and don’t need to collect benefits, thus making them cheap employees

     Federal Prison Industries, a company that contracts out prison labor, made over $900 million in revenue last year. FPI has prisoners working in apparel, clean energy, printing, document conversion and call centers. While FPI claims that prisoners are gaining real-world skills and learning trades, some argue otherwise.

    These companies are not classified as correctional facilitators; they consider themselves real estate investment trusts, or REITs, to limit corporate tax liability. Corrections Corporation of America and The GEO Group derive about 40% of their revenue from the federal government -- and are exempt from paying federal taxes.

[skweet]

They provide financial services to people that otherwise would have none. I'm not sure where you expect someone with poor credit, low income and no assets to get money in a pinch. Credit cards, banks and credit unions don't offer credit to those unlikely to repay. Maybe this is a good opportunity for someone looking to start a business. Rather than scorn their high fees, one could open a shop right down the street offering the same services at a discounted price. I would, but I have a feeling that the fees they charge are necessary to remain modestly profitable.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 1, 2015 10:18:26 GMT -5 resolution said:

Debtor's prison used to be illegal.

Yes, and we're consistently eroding our Bible-based (sorry mods, but our bankruptcy laws are STRAIGHT OUT OF SCRIPTURE-- including the 7 year period which is based on the Jewish law- specifically, the "Year Of Jubilee" which is the year in which all debtors were to be forgiven their debts, and slaves set free.  In contrast to the misinformation out there, the Bible doesn't condone slavery-- the term is used to describe indentured servitude- where a person would work for another person for a set period of time to repay a debt, or make restitution for some trespass or other), Constitutionally-mandated bankruptcy laws.  These are the only LAWS the Constitution mandated to be enacted.  Everything else in the Constitution is about structure, powers delegated, and process.  Our government, which is an exception to the bankruptcy concept, was never meant to be an exception.  But if you owe taxes, government-backed student loans, fines, child support, and/or a handful of other debts-- you can NEVER be free.  We read a lot about people who kill themselves because of "bullying"-- I wonder how many people kill themselves because they cannot escape debt?  Betcha we find out the government is the worst bully of all if we looked into that.

That being said, payday loans are not exempt from bankruptcy laws.  There is significant default rates- and for all the numbers, payday lenders make about the same as other institutional lenders- somewhere between 8% and 10%.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 1, 2015 9:33:59 GMT -5 resolution said:

Texas is putting a small number of people in jail for being unable to repay their payday loans. www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/29/texas-payday-lending_n_6355602.html?ir=Business

The article studiously avoids listing the Texas statute the offenders were charged under. My suspicion is that it's loan fraud, which is a frequently committed, but seldom prosecuted criminal act.  The very first case that hints at this is a woman that borrowed $250 from a payday lender (theoretically "until your next paycheck", right?) after losing her job as a receptionist.  Four weeks later, she owed $1,000.  But a payday loan term is not four weeks, is it?  I'm thinking "until your next paycheck" means 14 days at most?  Anyway- my guess is she lied on the application, wrote a bad check- or several bad checks (also a crime- check fraud-- again, frequently committed, but seldom prosecuted):

One reason that lenders' predatory behavior continues is simple administrative overload. Travis County Justice of the Peace Susan Steeg, who approved the charges against Jones, told HuffPost that due to the volume of bad check affidavits her court receives, her office has been instructed by the county attorney to file charges as affidavits are submitted. The charges are then passed along to the county attorney's office. It is up to the county attorney to review the cases and decide whether to prosecute or dismiss them.

It also seems that there's some expectation that payday lenders are not treated equally under the law, and that there's some expectation they can be victims of bad checks?

When cases are wrongfully filed by payday lenders, how quickly they are dismissed depends on prosecutors' workload and judgment. Often, it is not clear that theft by check cases are payday loans, since the name of the payday lender is not immediately distinguishable from that of an ordinary merchant.

Proving once again my opinion that there's no such thing as a court of law anymore in the United States. We now have, to our great peril, courts of equity.

[resolution]

Jan 4, 2015 16:23:30 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 1, 2015 9:33:59 GMT -5 resolution said:

Texas is putting a small number of people in jail for being unable to repay their payday loans. www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/29/texas-payday-lending_n_6355602.html?ir=Business

The article studiously avoids listing the Texas statute the offenders were charged under. My suspicion is that it's loan fraud, which is a frequently committed, but seldom prosecuted criminal act.  The very first case that hints at this is a woman that borrowed $250 from a payday lender (theoretically "until your next paycheck", right?) after losing her job as a receptionist.  Four weeks later, she owed $1,000.  But a payday loan term is not four weeks, is it?  I'm thinking "until your next paycheck" means 14 days at most?  Anyway- my guess is she lied on the application, wrote a bad check- or several bad checks (also a crime- check fraud-- again, frequently committed, but seldom prosecuted):

One reason that lenders' predatory behavior continues is simple administrative overload. Travis County Justice of the Peace Susan Steeg, who approved the charges against Jones, told HuffPost that due to the volume of bad check affidavits her court receives, her office has been instructed by the county attorney to file charges as affidavits are submitted. The charges are then passed along to the county attorney's office. It is up to the county attorney to review the cases and decide whether to prosecute or dismiss them.

It also seems that there's some expectation that payday lenders are not treated equally under the law, and that there's some expectation they can be victims of bad checks?

When cases are wrongfully filed by payday lenders, how quickly they are dismissed depends on prosecutors' workload and judgment. Often, it is not clear that theft by check cases are payday loans, since the name of the payday lender is not immediately distinguishable from that of an ordinary merchant.

Proving once again my opinion that there's no such thing as a court of law anymore in the United States. We now have, to our great peril, courts of equity.

From what I recall, they payday loan places are having the person write a check with a future date when they get the loan. If they request an extension they pay a fee to not have the check cashed, or something along those lines.  If they don't pay for an extension, the company cashes the check on the due date for the loan. So they are going after them for writing bad checks.

There was something written into the law that the bad checks doesn't apply to pay day lenders, back when they approved them to go into business, because the state didn't want to be the free collection agency for their business model.

[EVT1]

That is exactly what it said- in the law the bad check charge specifically does not apply to those postdated to payday lenders- but some are filing the charges anyway and the courts cannot easily determine who is a payday lender or not if they are not using particular company names or other identifying information.  Typical scumbag tactics- if anyone should be arrested over it is the payday lenders.

[EVT1]

Jan 4, 2015 16:16:43 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 1, 2015 10:18:26 GMT -5 resolution said:

Debtor's prison used to be illegal.

Yes, and we're consistently eroding our Bible-based (sorry mods, but our bankruptcy laws are STRAIGHT OUT OF SCRIPTURE-- including the 7 year period which is based on the Jewish law- specifically, the "Year Of Jubilee" which is the year in which all debtors were to be forgiven their debts, and slaves set free.  

1) The Bible is a horrible source to base laws on BUT:

2) The Bible was pretty fucking clear about usury

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 4, 2015 17:05:15 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jan 4, 2015 16:16:43 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Yes, and we're consistently eroding our Bible-based (sorry mods, but our bankruptcy laws are STRAIGHT OUT OF SCRIPTURE-- including the 7 year period which is based on the Jewish law- specifically, the "Year Of Jubilee" which is the year in which all debtors were to be forgiven their debts, and slaves set free.  

1) The Bible is a horrible source to base laws on BUT:

2) The Bible was pretty fucking clear about usury

I don't regard a high interest, short term loan as usury.  I could be wrong, I'm not a theologian.  Even if I was we'd have to go over to religious discussion.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 1, 2015 9:13:48 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

but the people who are being targeted are those with poor credit ratings

If you desperately needed £200 you would normally put it on your overdraft... or your credit card.
but if you cant do that you might turn to a pay day loan.

Its attracting the most vulnerable in our society and leaving them in difficulty
and that can't be right.

But you said they need the money desperately and have no where else to get the money. Wouldn't not giving them the payday loan also leave them in difficulty?

[mmhmm]

Leave the Bible out of this. AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, you know the drill. You've been told more than often enough. This is not a discussion of the Bible, it's a discussion of the law as it exists in our secular world. Any further posts that find the need to bring religion/the Bible into this discussion will be removed. There will be no warning, and no discussion.

mmhmm, Politics Moderator

[EVT1]

I fail to see how someone who has no money and in financial difficulty will be helped by placing them further into debt or into a debt spiral.

[dondub]

I don't regard a high interest, short term loan as usury. I could be wrong, I'm not a theologian. Even if I was we'd have to go over to religious discussion.
 

If a short term high interest rate loan isn't usury what the Hell is it? (is that a biblical term?)  It's no wonder Paul is so supportive of those sleazebags, he doesn't know what usury is. Or perhaps he is invested in one and has taken the usual justification route.

usu·ry noun \ˈyü-zhə-rē, ˈyüzh-rē\

: the practice of lending money and requiring the borrower to pay a high amount of interest

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 4, 2015 19:11:38 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I fail to see how someone who has no money and in financial difficulty will be helped by placing them further into debt or into a debt spiral.

I believe adults should be able to choose what is right for them and their circumstance. To be clear, no one is actually forcing these people to take pay day loans. People do stupid things every day

[weltschmerz]

Dec 31, 2014 9:39:35 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Dec 30, 2014 16:44:25 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

They exist to exploit the poor for profit.  They are usurious institutions only getting away with it because of legal loopholes.

Just drive around any big city in the poorer parts of town- they are everywhere- and in those areas they probably outnumber all restaurants.  While you will find a McDonalds everywhere- you rarely see payday lenders set up shop in the affluent areas- so take that into consideration when referring to the numbers.

That's your opinion.  As to the video-

a) I cannot stand Sarah Silverman's voice. I barely made it through Wreck It Ralph with the kids.
b) Sarah Silverman is not an authority on anything save how to be an actress / comedian.

Heh. I feel the same way about the moron in your avatar.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 4, 2015 16:58:47 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

That is exactly what it said- in the law the bad check charge specifically does not apply to those postdated to payday lenders- but some are filing the charges anyway and the courts cannot easily determine who is a payday lender or not if they are not using particular company names or other identifying information.  Typical scumbag tactics- if anyone should be arrested over it is the payday lenders.

I disagree with the Constitutionality of deliberately singling out and exposing one industry to bad check writers.  Check fraud is check fraud.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jan 4, 2015 19:04:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Leave the Bible out of this. AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, you know the drill. You've been told more than often enough. This is not a discussion of the Bible, it's a discussion of the law as it exists in our secular world. Any further posts that find the need to bring religion/the Bible into this discussion will be removed. There will be no warning, and no discussion.

mmhmm, Politics Moderator

I presume this also applies to EVT1 who objects to this practice on Biblical grounds? 

[EVT1]

Jan 5, 2015 9:43:56 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jan 4, 2015 16:58:47 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

That is exactly what it said- in the law the bad check charge specifically does not apply to those postdated to payday lenders- but some are filing the charges anyway and the courts cannot easily determine who is a payday lender or not if they are not using particular company names or other identifying information.  Typical scumbag tactics- if anyone should be arrested over it is the payday lenders.

I disagree with the Constitutionality of deliberately singling out and exposing one industry to bad check writers.  Check fraud is check fraud.

It is not automatically check fraud to post date a check and then have it bounce.  As was stated- the state decided that it was not going to be a collection agent for payday lenders through the criminal justice system and left it to civil remedies.

So are you saying all bad check writers should involve the criminal justice system?  If you write a bad check to your doctors office do they attempt to have you arrested?  This is nothing but corporate thuggery to attempt to arrest and jail debtors, or scare the hell out of them by threatening such.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Actually, post-dating a check is illegal in most states all by itself.

Postdated Checks & Criminal Law:

A person writing a postdated check may violate the law if the check is returned by the bank to the recipient because the maker’s account does not have the funds on deposit necessary to cover the check. Although worthless check laws can vary somewhat from one state to another, all states make it illegal for a person to write a worthless check with the intent to defraud a person or business of goods or services. The maker of the postdated check must have the intent to defraud at the time of writing the postdated check. Therefore, a defendant who writes a postdated check that is returned because of insufficient funds will not be convicted of writing a worthless check unless the prosecutor is able to prove that the defendant wrote the postdated check with the purpose of defrauding the recipient or with the knowledge that the check would not be honored at the later date used on the check.

Having just lost her job, I suspect she knew the check wouldn't clear at the time she wrote it.

[EVT1]

Where is it illegal to post date a check? I think you are misinformed.

The post-dating (or more accurately the post-depositing of), or in many cases an ACH withdrawal date in the future is part of a contract with the payday lender who is aware there are likely insufficient funds at that time.  Unless the person agreeing to it is intending to defraud the company at the time of that contract then it is not fraud.  There is no crime.

So answer the question- should we call the police every time someone bounces a check or not?  Or you think maybe we should go after actual criminals.