Can Jews be Excommunicated?

[Bonny]

DH (a techinical Jew -MIL  was Jewish before marrying DFIL) and I were having this discussion at lunch today.

If so, what are the causes and what is the process?

And sorry Mods this thread probably belongs over in a religion forum but I would greatly appreciate a little exposure here before it gets moved. thx!

[zibazinski]

DF says not as long as they pay temple dues!!

[Deleted]

excommunicate

VERB

officially exclude (someone) from participation in the sacraments and services of the Christian Church.

Technically I guess they can be, but I can't see them caring.

[NancysSummerSip]

It's not called excommunication, but herem, or shunning. Many of the reasons for herem are no longer possible or practical, however. This list is from Wikipedia:

insulting a learned man, even after his death;
insulting a messenger of the court;
calling an Israelite a "slave";
refusing to appear before the court at the appointed time;
dealing lightly with any of the rabbinic or Mosaic precepts;
refusing to abide by a decision of the court;
keeping in one's possession an animal or an object that may prove injurious to others, such as a savage dog or a broken ladder;
selling one's real estate to a non-Jew without assuming the responsibility for any injury that the non-Jew may cause his neighbors;
testifying against one's Jewish neighbor in a non-Jewish court, and thereby causing that neighbor to lose money which he would not have lost had the case been decided in a Jewish court;
a Kohen shochet (butcher) (all the more so an Israelite[6]) who refuses to give the foreleg, cheeks and abomasum of kosher-slaughtered livestock to another Kohen;
violating the second day of a holiday, even though its observance is only a custom;
performing work on the afternoon of the day preceding Passover;
taking the name of God in vain;
causing others to profane the name of God;
causing others to eat holy meat outside of Jerusalem;
making calculations for the calendar, and establishing festivals accordingly, outside of Israel;
putting a stumbling-block in the way of the blind, that is to say, tempting another to sin (Lifnei iver);
preventing the community from performing some religious act;
selling forbidden ("terefah") meat as permitted meat ("kosher");
failure by a "shochet" (ritual slaughterer) to show his knife to the rabbi for examination;
masturbation;
engaging in intercourse with one's divorced wife;
being made the subject of scandal (in the case of a rabbi);
declaring an unjustified excommunication.

The punishment actually has three stages: a single day (nezifah), seven days (niddui) and thirty days and beyond (herem), the point of the first two are to give the offender a chance to mourn, reconsider and repent.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5933-excommunication

[Bonny]

thanks Nancy I knew I could count on you. and i love the idea of an on-line Jewish dictionary. 

[justme]

Surprising number of things are what you "caused" other people to do.

[Chocolate Lover]

causing others to profane the name of God

I wouldn't have lasted through my childhood

[Bob Ross]

Dec 18, 2014 16:18:58 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

It's not called excommunication, but herem, or shunning.

Is that pronounced with a boatload of phlegm on the first syllable? 

[NancysSummerSip]

Dec 18, 2014 16:35:33 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Dec 18, 2014 16:18:58 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

It's not called excommunication, but herem, or shunning.

Is that pronounced with a boatload of phlegm on the first syllable? 

Nope, just the normal "h" sound. I guess the whole idea is already bad enough without adding the sound of a cat coughing up a hairball the size of an ocean liner.

[Bob Ross]

Dec 18, 2014 16:18:58 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

...
masturbation;
...
   

The punishment actually has three stages: a single day (nezifah), seven days (niddui) and thirty days and beyond (herem), the point of the first two are to give the offender a chance to mourn, reconsider and repent.

So if one cries while masturbating, is the whole thing considered a wash?

(I might have a problem)

[Bonny]

Linguistically Cherem looks to be related to the Arabic Harem (private or forbidden). I also enjoy the mix of Hebrew and Yiddish (germanic-based) terms.

[NancysSummerSip]

Dec 18, 2014 16:42:00 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Dec 18, 2014 16:18:58 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

...
masturbation;
...
   

The punishment actually has three stages: a single day (nezifah), seven days (niddui) and thirty days and beyond (herem), the point of the first two are to give the offender a chance to mourn, reconsider and repent.

So if one cries while masturbating, is the whole thing considered a wash?

(I might have a problem)

With the crying part or the masturbation part?

[weltschmerz]

Dec 18, 2014 16:45:24 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Linguistically Cherem looks to be related to the Arabic Harem (private or forbidden). I also enjoy the mix of Hebrew and Yiddish (germanic-based) terms.

Wouldn't that be "haram"?

[Deleted]

[hoops902]

Jews can certainly be excommunicated.  The application of "Jew" can be religious or ethnic, so you could certainly have an ethnic Jew who practices Catholocism and then gets excommunicated by the Catholic church.

I know, not really the question.

[zibazinski]

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

[NancysSummerSip]

Dec 22, 2014 13:09:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

We don't care how the goyim say it. We just want them to buy it. And use it for the world's best French toast.

[zibazinski]

Oh, yeah! Yum.

[hoops902]

Dec 22, 2014 13:09:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

When people start telling me about all the ways of spelling Hanukkah, or people mispronouncing it, etc, I just say "that's why I just call it Jewish Christmas".  That's usually enough to make them give up on thinking I can be educated on what they're saying.

[zibazinski]

[Bob Ross]

Dec 22, 2014 13:09:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

I just say "Happy Chewbacca".

[weltschmerz]

Dec 22, 2014 13:09:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

Well, you just don't. It's kind of like saying "baguette bread". You don't.

[zibazinski]

That's great but I didn't even ask her about the holiday. She just proceeded to tell me.

[swamp]

Dec 22, 2014 13:09:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

speaking of pronouncing something with a bucket of phlegm and a hairball...............

[swamp]

Dec 22, 2014 13:25:28 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Dec 22, 2014 13:09:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

   Argh. A woman just spent about 20 minutes explaining why Chanukah and Hanukkah are spelled different and why you don't say challah bread, just challah, and how non Jews don't pronounce it correctly. At the end I was glad to be thinking whether Jesus was born in December or August. 

When people start telling me about all the ways of spelling Hanukkah, or people mispronouncing it, etc, I just say "that's why I just call it Jewish Christmas".  That's usually enough to make them give up on thinking I can be educated on what they're saying.

You win the interwebz today.

[Ombud]

Can an extremely conservative Jewish weigh in??

1. Hannukah is from a different alphabet hence the difference in spelling, I think only the orthodox would care. But then I live in California, the East Coast can get weird

2. 10 Jews 11 opinions ... it's an agreement between JHWL (God) and the individual so who's to say who is more righteous and less worthy? Entire dissertations written on this

3. Nancy is quoting how it used to be millennium ago .... like in the days of homosexuality being a violation

No, you cannot be excommunicated but you can choose to not practice

[Deleted]

On that masturbation thing....

wouldn't that mean that there technically are no longer Jews because all of their ancestors would have been secretly excommunicated due to this act of human nature?

[NancysSummerSip]

Dec 23, 2014 11:45:00 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Can an extremely conservative Jewish weigh in??

1. Hannukah is from a different alphabet hence the difference in spelling, I think only the orthodox would care. But then I live in California, the East Coast can get weird

2. 10 Jews 11 opinions ... it's an agreement between JHWL (God) and the individual so who's to say who is more righteous and less worthy? Entire dissertations written on this

3. Nancy is quoting how it used to be millennium ago .... like in the days of homosexuality being a violation

No, you cannot be excommunicated but you can choose to not practice

In Orthodox sects, excommunication is still practiced, though it's not common. I was not originally differentiating between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism. But for the record, in Reform Judaism: no, you would not see anyone excommunicated. Not really in Conservative Judaism, either, other than as a purely symbolic gesture.


The original question asked if it was possible. Yes, and there is a code for how it's to be done. Is it practiced much? No.

[Bonny]

Dec 23, 2014 12:57:04 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

Dec 23, 2014 11:45:00 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Can an extremely conservative Jewish weigh in??

1. Hannukah is from a different alphabet hence the difference in spelling, I think only the orthodox would care. But then I live in California, the East Coast can get weird

2. 10 Jews 11 opinions ... it's an agreement between JHWL (God) and the individual so who's to say who is more righteous and less worthy? Entire dissertations written on this

3. Nancy is quoting how it used to be millennium ago .... like in the days of homosexuality being a violation

No, you cannot be excommunicated but you can choose to not practice

In Orthodox sects, excommunication is still practiced, though it's not common. I was not originally differentiating between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism. But for the record, in Reform Judaism: no, you would not see anyone excommunicated. Not really in Conservative Judaism, either, other than as a purely symbolic gesture.


The original question asked if it was possible. Yes, and there is a code for how it's to be done. Is it practiced much? No.

Ombud,

Nancy answered the question in exactly the way I was looking for. DH and I were wondering if it were possible. His mother's family weren't terribly religious and no one we know very well is either.

The conversation actually stemmed from how he's technically Jewish because his mother was Jewish and he wondered if there was a process that actually kicked folks out of the tribe. That doesn't seem to be the case based on what Nancy posted. It seems that you can be shunned but you never really stop being Jewish.

[Ombud]

Never heard of it actually happening in my lifetime or my dad's or even discussed outside of historical theoretical possibility! Thankfully lifelong Californian

But thank you for the info

example of the difference. Last month somebody from somewhere in New York told me nobody wears jeans and tennis shoes to synagogue. Really? Are you kidding me? We all wear jeans and tennis shoes to our Conservative synagogue. I don't think God cares what I'm wearing as long as I'm covered up. It's sort of like that line in the Big Bang Theory: