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Post by ed1066 on Mar 3, 2011 17:04:05 GMT -5
Since that is coming from someone who equates American soldiers with suicide bombers, I will...
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 3, 2011 17:04:15 GMT -5
Once again, Paul, well said! You know when the apologists call you a racist/bigot/extremist, you've won the debate... Or that you are actually a racist/bigot/extremist & just getting called out on that fact.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 17:05:12 GMT -5
Since that is coming from someone who equates American soldiers with suicide bombers, I will... Oh, so you weren't being deliberately obtuse, you really are just slow. Good to know
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 3, 2011 17:31:26 GMT -5
What can I say? I'm a Goldwater conservative, and therefore agree with what he said-- which I will quote to you at this time, "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" But I must be a moderate, because I also believe very strongly what one of the most activist, progressive Presidents in our history said, which is, "We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an American and assimilates himself to us he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birth-place or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. . . We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 18:16:47 GMT -5
Loop... have you/ the kids read/listened to Ender's Game/ Speaker for the Dead? Its great stuff... War and battle school and xenophobia and how we can't always understand the actions of others, and never will as long as we are governed by fear and hate. We finally finished the Speaker for the Dead today ... Highly recommend... (9 year old was sitting on the couch last night explaining to her dad how the seemingly horrific and violent actions of the alien species was actually something completely different when looked at in the context of their culture and knowledge )
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 19:03:02 GMT -5
Op - I have not, but now I want to put it on the list. It's one of the sci fi series I've regretted not picking up yet. I did hear that someone is adapting Ender's Game into a movie
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 19:14:52 GMT -5
They've been trying forever... maybe now with computer tech they will be able to. At the end of Ender's Game the author talks, and he said there are several problems he's run into making it a movie. One, is that you have to find, not just a single child who can play the depth of character, but a whole host of children who can pull off roles that most adults would find difficult. Second, is that for mass market appeal, most people he's tried to work with want to make ender a few years older (teen) and give him a love interest... (which basically says immediately to me they don't understand the whole thing anyway...) .... He said the latest people he was working with seemed to understand his objections to this. .. but i haven't heard of it moving forward.
I can't wait to start the next... i don't know if i'll do audio or read it, the first two audio were really good... but we're not as often all in the car together these days... which is where we generally listen... we finished this one too slow for me... so i think we'll all end up doing it on our own, whatever method. I can probably read it faster, but its one of those audios where the voices change, and now i've got those voices in my head, so i might just listen...
Any ideas for books for 12-14 year old group that are a bit lighter though? I looked and this month for their book club they are reading Hunger Games, next month is Time Machine and i was told to look at putting Bar Code Tatoo and the Giver on the list... and i'm thinking, wow, how much futeristic dark matter can we handle before they might need a break? ...
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 3, 2011 19:27:59 GMT -5
12 - 14? I skipped over that age group when I was a kid and my girls haven't hit it yet so I'm not really sure. Really though, you can pretty much pick any adult marketed fantasy series (Jim Butcher's Codex Alera is a pretty good one) and it will be appropriate for that age group. Most science fiction is as well - Tobias Buckell's Ragamuffin etc, I *believe* are age appropriate and deal with some issues of post-colonialism (he's a Caribbean ex-pat). Douglas Adams would be great too! The guy I do my podcast with knows a bit more about teen level sci fi so I'll ask him and let you know.
OH! The Moorehawk Trilogy by Celine Kiernan is also EXCELLENT! We just interviewed her recently.. It's a fantasy series that deals with a myriad of very complex political and social issues. It can be a bit dark, but definitely something to look into at some point.
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Post by marjar on Mar 3, 2011 19:37:31 GMT -5
Ender's Game and The Giver are excellent.
For something a bit lighter, The Westing Game?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2011 20:16:29 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be sci fi... They did Al Capone Does my Shirts last month.
I did love the Westing Game. My kids have listened to that, but i bet most haven't read it yet. That would be good. I'll look at some of those titles Loop. And i love Douglas Adams... hmmm... and its funny and light, but still has good topics...
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Post by marjar on Mar 3, 2011 20:20:00 GMT -5
Children always thing being a martyr is cool. I remember wanting to die for the Church when I was a young bubblehead reading the lives of the Saints. So much for that theory. My mom always said that the reason that soldiers are recruited young is that they don't believe they will ever actually die. Teens and young adults suffer immortality syndrome.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Mar 3, 2011 23:46:50 GMT -5
You're equating American soldiers with suicide bombers? I don't think she was equating our soldiers to suicide bombers. I think she was just showing that influence to violence no matter where they live at a young age has a bad effect. Look at the wiki leaks videos of our soldiers killing innocent civilians, those soldiers had some serious issues and it was either from the violence they have seen oversees or from t.v./video games.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Mar 4, 2011 7:42:08 GMT -5
That's right, this is how they make more suicide bombers... And we encourage all our little boys to grow up to become killers as well. Of course, we tell them they'll be doing it for their country! Oh wait, that's what these kids are being told. Hmmm... murky gray area, it is. Not so simple, I think. Only in your deluded mind.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Mar 4, 2011 7:57:03 GMT -5
Sigh is right. I guess some people can't see the world from someone else's view. It's interesting that some posters on here seem to have more tolerance for this view than they have for Americans who happen to affiliate with a different political party.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 4, 2011 11:06:02 GMT -5
It's interesting that some posters on here seem to have more tolerance for this view than they have for Americans who happen to affiliate with a different political party. Just because we can understand why someone might think the way they do doesn't mean we agree with them. The purpose of these boards is to have discussions covering these topics. Do you want me to hold your hand & tell you I understand your viewpoint & we can sing kumbayah? How about this - I understand some of the people with far right viewpoints on this board probably grew up in an environment where bigotry was acceptable & they learned to use scapegoats for the countries problems. They probably also grew up somewhat secluded & didn't meet many people from other cultures. So I really can't blame them for thinking that all muslims are evils & need to be kicked out of this country or for not being able to understand why children in Afghanistan might play suicide bomber. However, this doesn't mean that I at all agree with this perspective, I just can understand the cultural influences that led them to think this way. Is that better? And I want to point out that I don't by any means include all conservatives in the above statement. I know many conservatives that are open-minded & able to have a dialogue without resorting to statement like I am 100% wrong & unamerican or that my thinking is going to end this country. They just have views that happen to differ from mine & have the logic & ability to explain their views & I can respect that.
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 4, 2011 12:31:26 GMT -5
Angel, you pull the race card WAY too often and your credibility is nil as a result...all you're doing with these kinds of statements is making yourself look very close-minded and brainwashed by liberal nonsense...
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 4, 2011 12:44:37 GMT -5
Angel, you pull the race card WAY too often and your credibility is nil as a result...all you're doing with these kinds of statements is making yourself look very close-minded and brainwashed by liberal nonsense... Please show me some times where I have pulled the race card. To my recollection I only remember it coming up on krickett's post & even then I said that I would hesitate to call her a racist, but her statement seemed a little odd (or something to that effect). That and a generic post about racism in which Loopi pointed out that it wasn't really racism, but rather bigotry. I have made other posts pointing out people's stereotypes, but that is nothing more than pointing out what people are really saying with their words.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 4, 2011 12:54:39 GMT -5
but rather bigotry.
That must be me!
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 4, 2011 12:59:39 GMT -5
...or me...
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 4, 2011 13:09:38 GMT -5
burns - yes, when you are absolutely positive that every single person holds a specific view because of their religion, then that is nothing more than stereotyping.
BeenThere - Not sure, I don't remember anything specific from you, but don't have time to go back & read the posts right now.
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 4, 2011 13:11:16 GMT -5
burns - yes
I told you so!
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 4, 2011 13:23:12 GMT -5
...and wouldn't a view that "all discrimination is negative" be stereotyping, too?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 4, 2011 13:29:35 GMT -5
...I will save you some time, Angel... I haven't posted earlier in this thread, largely because I'm not shocked that kids act out adult activities of their culture... ...but all in all, I have been counted among one of those irrational posters of the forum, who are too closed-minded for our own good...
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on Mar 4, 2011 14:44:19 GMT -5
I have been counted among one of those irrational posters of the forum
Tell me about it. Some people think I'm irrational for suggesting corrupt government officials caught stealing from hard working honest taxpayers should be executed. Go figure.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 4, 2011 14:45:55 GMT -5
I have been counted among one of those irrational posters of the forumTell me about it. Some people think I'm irrational for suggesting corrupt government officials caught stealing from hard working honest taxpayers should be executed. Go figure. I think you're irrational for wanting people who steal money executed. Imprisoned, yes, but I think execution is a little much. Anyways, isn't that what's done in those barbaric Arabic countries?
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Mar 4, 2011 16:05:27 GMT -5
So our soldiers are brainwashed in the same fashion as suicide bombers? Lol of course not silly it is in a different fashion. Why do you think they have an age limit on most of the armed forces. They don't want to have to try and set a certain mindset with people that have descent amount of knowledge and experience in the real world.
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Post by marjar on Mar 4, 2011 16:18:14 GMT -5
Wonder what these kids want to be when they grow up?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 4, 2011 16:38:40 GMT -5
...and wouldn't a view that "all discrimination is negative" be stereotyping, too? Huh? I don't think you can stereotype words, you can argue the symantics of a word. Personally, I think the word discrimination has a negative connotation, but others might disagree. If you know of a situation where discrimination was positive, then please enlighten me (and I mean discrimination towards people, not the word as it's used like "she has discriminating taste in food"). I went through a lot of your posts on other threads & frankly I didn't see anything that stood out where I would accuse you of bigotry. We have some areas where we disagree, but despite what some people think about my use of words like that, that doesn't make you a bigot or racist in my eyes. You seem to be a reasonable level-headed person that is able to argue your point logically without resorting to calling everyone who disagrees with you a complete idiot that clearly hates this country. But, maybe I just missed some of your more hateful posts ;D
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 4, 2011 16:43:17 GMT -5
IF they rebel, they'll be nice kids. If not, they'll be rotten little shits. Either way, the odds are pretty good they won't be blowing themselves up.
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Post by ed1066 on Mar 4, 2011 16:53:33 GMT -5
Maximum enlistment age for the Army is 42. Do you feel most 42 year olds have no experience in the "real world"?
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